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RedmanWasHere said:
1927-41 now done.
Click to expand...


Been a while between updates but 1945-60 are now done.

1942-44 were lost to the second world war.

I had to give myself a couple of breaks between the posts.
 
stemline said:
All my stuff is VERY Hawthorn focused, so probably not much value to the collective here. But I guess some of it might plug a gap or two so I'll pop some stuff in this thread if it looks like it might relate to other projects mentioned here.

Starting with Hawthorn Subs
Click to expand...
Hi stemline - this stuff is amazing. Would you be okay with me incorporating this into my site? Things like player positions, captains, vice-captains, and so much more I'm very interested in. I'm just on my phone but I recall seeing you post a complete player position spreadsheet too and I'm happy to incorporate that. If you have VFA years stuff I can also incorporate that. Feel free to shoot me a message if you want discuss further. I've already been bringing in the works of Bassoon and Brad_5668.
 
McPang said:
Hi stemline - this stuff is amazing. Would you be okay with me incorporating this into my site? Things like player positions, captains, vice-captains, and so much more I'm very interested in. I'm just on my phone but I recall seeing you post a complete player position spreadsheet too and I'm happy to incorporate that. If you have VFA years stuff I can also incorporate that. Feel free to shoot me a message if you want discuss further. I've already been bringing in the works of Bassoon and Brad_5668.
Click to expand...


What website is this?
 

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Hi RedmanWasHere - thanks for the interest. To keep it brief (though I am terrible at doing so) - it's a recent project of mine I started for kicks that grew faster than I thought I would. I released a v1 in 2022 that was only VFL/AFL when I got back into footy and then created a v2 late last year when I decided it wasn't enough, expanded to state leagues, and had to re-design the database model and structural design of the site. It's nothing fancy; low-fidelity, low cost, and it would've even been free to host had I not added some additional features for security. Its main purpose is try to unify and consolidate as much information across the leagues as possible.

The current scope (having to draw the line somewhere - for now) includes, but is not limited to:
  • Competitions - not likely to expand in the near future while I try to complete this list:
    • VFL/AFL (1897-present)
    • VFA/VFL (1897-present, Div 1 only)
    • SANFL (1897-present inc. war merger years)
    • WAFL (1898-present)
    • TFL/TSL (1908-present)
    • Carnivals (1908-present, Section A or Section A/B only)
    • VFL/AFL Reserves (1919-1999 + present if it comes back)
    • VFA/VFL Reserves (1928-2017)
    • SANFL Reserves (1919-present)
    • WAFL Reserves (1925-present)
    • TFL/TSL Reserves (1928-present)
  • Match-level information:
    • Players (inc. whatever tallies e.g. total goals, behinds, disposals etc.)
    • Match-day coaches (inc. caretaker/non-caretaker)
    • Match-day captains (inc. acting/non-acting)
    • Match-day vice-captains (inc. acting/non-acting)
    • Player positions
    • Quarterly scores
    • Scoring timelines (i.e. score-by-score sequence e.g. player A scored a goal, then player B scored a behind etc.)
    • Venue
    • Overturned results via protest/ruling
    • Player substitutions
    • Umpires (field, goal, boundary)
    • Emergency umpire + replacements/substitutions
    • Brownlow votes
    • AFLCA Champion votes
    • Norm Smith votes
    • AFLCA Gary Ayres votes
  • Teams:
    • Home grounds each season
    • Leaders (captains, vice-captains, deputy vice-captains, leadership group) each season inc. noting changes mid-season
  • Drafts:
    • All drafts 1981-onwards excluding pre-draft/post-draft (i.e. a pick number must exist against the draftee)
  • Awards:
    • All-Australian
    • VFL/AFL teams of the year
    • VFA/VFL teams of the year
    • SANFL teams of the year
    • WAFL teams of the year
    • TSL teams of the year
  • Person-level details:
    • Names and aliases (not to be confused with nicknames)
    • Date of birth, date of death, place of birth, place of death
    • All links between player/coach/draftee/umpire i.e. (player-coach, player-draftee, player-umpire, coach-draftee, coach-umpire, draftee-umpire)
  • Other things, can't think of them at the moment
It's rare to come across the site because I haven't published the page publicly, nor set it to be crawled by Google. The main reason is because it's still somewhat a work-in-progress. It has its flaws and has its fair share of gaps that in some sense technically make it inaccurate in cases. The reason is because the database model design follows third normal form (3NF) (to a high degree) - this is to avoid conflicts. I would go into the details of the major issues this causes from a site perspective, but I've already made ths post too long, but an example is that I would have the incorrect number of games a Glenelg player has played for Glenelg, in some cases where records are incomplete. The short version is that it's a self-consistent site, but should never be linked to via URL, with information that can be misunderstood by generative AI models trying to learn from the internet (e.g. ChatGPT). The site was at first just meant to be a web-interface for me to analyse/interact with the data I had - 95% spaghetti, 5% care, 100% self-built end-to-end. Feel free to message me to discuss further. TLDR: Happy to share the site details via DM, just don't want misinformation from the site spreading and accidentally self-reinforcing in a loop.

But if you're curious about things the site includes, and the degree of scope, here are some examples:

1. How the teams lined up for the 2023 TSL grand final between Kingborough and North Launceston (which is why I'd love to incorporate the Hawthorn positional data)

1726326795368.png

2. The umpires for that same game

1726326917055.png

3. Algorithmically-determined AFLCA votes for a random AFL game

1726327263644.png
 
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McPang said:
Hi stemline - this stuff is amazing. Would you be okay with me incorporating this into my site? Things like player positions, captains, vice-captains, and so much more I'm very interested in. I'm just on my phone but I recall seeing you post a complete player position spreadsheet too and I'm happy to incorporate that. If you have VFA years stuff I can also incorporate that. Feel free to shoot me a message if you want discuss further. I've already been bringing in the works of Bassoon and Brad_5668.
Click to expand...
You're free to use anything I've posted here, sure.
 
Thanks mate - I might reach out to you if I find anything that might need clarification (e.g. my data is out of date), but I'll try to incorporate it ASAP and will share the results.
 
stemline said:
You're free to use anything I've posted here, sure.
Click to expand...
Hawthorn FC positional data and substitution details now loaded for 1925-2023. Massive thanks for letting me use it. I'll be prioritising filling in the gaps I've got in TFL history now so I can then get through the player/captain/coach history e.g. Albert Collier coaching Cananore.

EDIT: TFL now complete for 1908-1915, 1919-1941, 1945-2000, 2009-2023. Coaching history (match-day) for New Town / Glenorchy inc. caretakers complete.
 
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RedmanWasHere said:
1982-1993 likewise done.
Click to expand...


Can add 1994-99 to the pile.

Now on to 2000 where the VFA/VFL grew to 18 teams and saw the start of the modern VFL/AFL aliiances and saw the death of the old VFL/AFL ressies.

And when the Murray Kangaroos was born.
 

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RedmanWasHere said:
Can add 1994-99 to the pile.

Now on to 2000 where the VFA/VFL grew to 18 teams and saw the start of the modern VFL/AFL aliiances and saw the death of the old VFL/AFL ressies.

And when the Murray Kangaroos was born.
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2000-03 now done.
 
RedmanWasHere said:
2004-11 now done.
Click to expand...

2012-19 and 2021-24 are all done and, thus, the round by round documentation of the VFA/VFL is complete.

2020 was the COVID year and even 2021 wasn't completely spared.

2021 didn't have a finals series.
 
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If anyone's interested, here's the top 20 highest scoring rounds in VFA/VFL history:

Column key:

First: Season.
Second: Round.
Third: Teams played that round.
Fourth: Goals.
Fifth: Behinds.
Sixth: Total score.
Seventh: Average score.

2000​
R02​
18​
292​
214​
1966​
109.222222222222​
2000​
R01​
18​
279​
216​
1890​
105​
2021​
R01​
22​
276​
234​
1890​
85.9090909090909​
1983​
R17​
14​
277​
216​
1878​
134.142857142857​
2023​
R05​
20​
272​
238​
1870​
93.5​
1984​
R07​
12​
281​
169​
1855​
154.583333333333​
2000​
R19​
18​
272​
205​
1837​
102.055555555556​
2000​
R08​
18​
265​
217​
1807​
100.388888888889​
2000​
R13​
18​
266​
208​
1804​
100.222222222222​
1984​
R05​
12​
272​
160​
1792​
149.333333333333​
2000​
R04​
18​
256​
253​
1789​
99.3888888888889​
1990​
R07​
14​
255​
233​
1763​
125.928571428571​
1989​
R02​
14​
258​
206​
1754​
125.285714285714​
1989​
R19​
14​
260​
194​
1754​
125.285714285714​
2022​
R03​
20​
253​
234​
1752​
87.6​
1990​
R14​
14​
258​
202​
1750​
125​
2024​
R21​
20​
254​
222​
1746​
87.3​
1990​
R02​
14​
256​
192​
1728​
123.428571428571​
2000​
R05​
18​
250​
225​
1725​
95.8333333333333​
1990​
R01​
14​
252​
208​
1720​
122.857142857143​
 
McPang said:
Will do! It looks like I'm still unable to send a message to anyone privately just yet, it seems I'll have to post a bit more first before I get that capability - but I will as soon as I can. On another note, would you happen to know which season was first in which they used "Reserves" (instead of "Seconds") e.g. VFL Seconds -> VFL Reserves for 1960? Unlike the senior level, there's a lot less information out there about name changes throughout the seasons.
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Brad_5668 McPang

My records show that this happened in 1980 when then WANFL became the WAFL. I am pretty sure it was sourced from the Football Budget, but I stand to be corrected.

1979 - WANFL Seconds
1980 - WAFL Reserves
 
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Maybe it's a regional thing
i've always known the reserves as the reserve grade, never the seconds, 2's or other
With rugby league ( same city, probably same guys running round) they were the B grade

1732352066059.png


there was some 70's Adelaide commentator (Day?) who consistently used the term "league seconds"
 
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I am in the latter stages of collating a record of all the clubs who have played in men's (1885-2024) and women's (1921-2024) football leagues throughout Western Australia over the years.

I compiled an A-Z list of affiliated clubs and 1st XVIII premiers from 1885-1945 for a book I completed a couple of years ago on the first 60 years of football in WA, but have almost finished extending that list to the present day.

I just need to confirm:
  • The clubs from the Hills FA (single division from 1986-1996 and the two divisions from 1997-2001).
  • The clubs from the North-East Goldfields FA (it started in 1978 and I only have the clubs from 78-79 and the premiers from 1978-79, 1986 and 1997).
  • The club affiliations and premiers from the Exmouth FA (1966-91).
  • The premiers from the Mt Magnet FA for 1954 and 1955.
  • The club affiliations for East Kimberley FA from 1981-84 and 1986-93, the 1975 premier and confirmation that the competition went from social to being competitive in 1972.
 
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killer said:
Maybe it's a regional thing
i've always known the reserves as the reserve grade, never the seconds, 2's or other
With rugby league ( same city, probably same guys running round) they were the B grade

View attachment 2173758


there was some 70's Adelaide commentator (Day?) who consistently used the term "league seconds"
Click to expand...
Thanks MortlockWatcher and killer - I'll update my records so the transition from "Seconds" to "Reserves" occurs in 1980.

I agree that the interchangeable nature of the terms B-Grade / Seconds / Reserves (even in the earlier years when it would be the Association - under the League) doesn't make it easy to determine the distinct eras in which a particular standard was in place for a particular body.

It also happens that I got a look at the 1947 Morrish "medal" (at the time it was a cup), and it refers to the "thirds" competition as the "League Seconds "B" Grade. Specifically, it says:

"MORRISH CUP"
LEAGUE SECONDS "B" GRADE
Best & Fairest
SEASON 1947
Awarded to
A. R. DALE
OF NORTH ESSENDON CLUB

Maybe the "B" is something else, it looks like something in between a "b" and a "B". Either way, an interesting name for the thirds.

On another note, with the WAFL being WASFL (1990) and Westar Rules (1997-2000), I've simply named the corresponding seconds/reserves as WASFL Reserves (1990) and Wester Rules Reserves (1997-2000). If they happen to have not been called that, that would be good to know.
 

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