Strategy Defence too slow & tall !

[CatFan79]

Before sides worked us out and stopped bombing. Before when our mids were playing well and the pressure was low. Before when our backs were playing reasonably well. To suggest we aren't slow is nonsense. As is the suggestion that we were okay 6 years ago. At which time some of those still running around now were running around then and have lost pace since. It is our achilles heal and the wise football minds know it.

Wise minds like yours? Rubbish..

You're confusing pace with structure, effort and work rate.

 

[AM]

Wise minds like yours? Rubbish..

You're confusing pace with structure, effort and work rate.

Well! Maybe you are simply confusing leg speed with lack of it. Effort and work rate are non-negotiables and apply to all players. Structure is important and that's why most teams have at least one player in the back half who has the leg speed to run and carry and break lines.

It's fair enough for people to take the view that having a slow one paced back half isn't of significance for whatever reasons they may content themselves with, but for people to suggest ours isn't one paced and slow - or at least slowish - is arrant nonsense.

The sides that have exposed us have lowered their eyes and picked out targets. The Swans did it expertly and showed for all to see how exposed we are when teams don't go in bombing with high balls and our mids are either beaten or neutralised thereby placing a heavier load on the back half. Added to which, it's no accident that the emerging teams have plenty of leg speed and rebound. One of the factors in our favour in beating the Bullies was their two most important "quicks", Johannisen (who the Bullies selected immediately he was available despite a long time out with injury so important do they regard him) and Dahlhaus were out. London to a brick, the Bullies also select Dahlhaus as soon as he's available despite his long time out.

 

[strauchnyy]

4 key defenders is clearly a problem for us at the moment and we MUST drop one of them and put Guthrie back for longer periods, as well as to bring in an inside mid to cover caddys loss (which we've neglected to do for 2 weeks which is poor tactical coaching).

"Ooo but our defence was no.1 in the league with 4 talls" - the counter to that is our mids were dominating in that time which starved the opposition of opportunities and caused the opposition to kick long in hope while rushed. Our current midfield is getting smashed.

Basically our strong midfield masked the problem of 4 talls and now it's more revealing.

A real weakness for us is transition from defence and having Guthrie back will greatly help, plus he can regain form there. Kolo for menegola would be my change.

 

[catempire]

"Ooo but our defence was no.1 in the league with 4 talls" - the counter to that is our mids were dominating in that time which starved the opposition of opportunities and caused the opposition to kick long in hope while rushed. Our current midfield is getting smashed.

The counter to that is why isn't our midfield dominating now? Because when it doesn't, the height of the backline is completely moot.

 

[strauchnyy]

The counter to that is why isn't our midfield dominating now? Because when it doesn't, the height of the backline is completely moot.

When our mid isn't on top the opposition has more time to pick out targets and our slower talls are more exposed. But a key reason we need 1 less tall is to improve our transition and run from defence. When our mid fails and our transition is therefore further weakened, we can't simply just bomb it down the line.

Team setups change throughout the year as they evolve to adjust a counter other styles. We are currently too predictable and worked out. It's time to change it up.

On a larger ground at at subi where there is more space and against a team that plays a smaller set up, I'd be shocked at our incompetence of we go again with 4 tall key defenders.

 

[The 747]

Agree he hasn't been that bad and he will be a very good player in the future. But for team balance someone needs to come out.
I know others don't count Mackie as a tall but Kolo is playing a similar role.
Henderson, Lonergon, Taylor, Kolo and Mackie at least one of them has to come out of the backline. If we're talking about the finals team id take out Kolo.

No, because we would be replacing one of those players with Bews (assuming Ruggles stays in).

No way you can convince me Henderson, Lonergon, Taylor, Mackie, Ruggles, Bews is a better bet than

Henderson, Lonergon, Taylor, Kolo, Mackie and Ruggles no matter if we are playing a team of dwarves or not.

 

[Go Hoops]

Wise minds like yours? Rubbish..

You're confusing pace with structure, effort and work rate.

Firstly, work rate and effort are one and the same.

Secondly, structure is what the discussion is based on.

Thirdly, you wouldn't get in the same room as "wise minds" - suburb even.

 

[Cataholic]

Bullshit.
Just because the end result goes our way doesn't mean within that game there are concerns. The round one game against Hawthorn highlighted how slow and tall we can be. The third quarter was nothing but exposing our lack of pace.
The Adelaide match where Lynch and Walker played high up on the flanks and allowed Betts, Cameron to roam around the feet of Jenkins and caused us headaches in the second half.
The Carlton game was another example of how slow we setup at Etihad. Everitt is a tall but he's a very quick tall and Mackie/Henderson/Kolo could not deal with it, not to mention Armfield's 3 goals as well.
Second encounter with GWS where Greene kicked 3 on Mackie when someone like Guthrie may have been a far more suitable option if only the coach was not so schizophrenic about playing the tallest back-line of this decade.
St Kilda match, again, if you happened to watch the game, it was their smalls that won them the game. Had we setup a small and nimble back-line, Maverick Weller and Jade Gresham don't kick their goals.

The Sydney game further highlighted how one dimensional and slow we are.
Flipping the argument around by saying our midfield is dominating, there's no discussion about the tall backline is incorrect as those such as myself have been banging on about it for a number of seasons already. Only now when the media begin to talk about do supporters like yourself start to pay attention to the issue.

The most immediate concern though is the performance of our midfield. They keep getting thrashed and our backline will continue to be pummelled. Most backlines will break down eventually under sheer weight of numbers.

Get the midfield running, and instantly there's less pressure on the backline. The ball is moving forward most of the time, not back.

With less entry into the D50, and less pressure to purely defend against the odds, the defensive unit will perform better and consideration can be given to running the ball out. At the moment we're simply trying to hold the wall against a barrage.

 

[catempire]

Bullshit.
Just because the end result goes our way doesn't mean within that game there are concerns. The round one game against Hawthorn highlighted how slow and tall we can be. The third quarter was nothing but exposing our lack of pace.
The Adelaide match where Lynch and Walker played high up on the flanks and allowed Betts, Cameron to roam around the feet of Jenkins and caused us headaches in the second half.
The Carlton game was another example of how slow we setup at Etihad. Everitt is a tall but he's a very quick tall and Mackie/Henderson/Kolo could not deal with it, not to mention Armfield's 3 goals as well.
Second encounter with GWS where Greene kicked 3 on Mackie when someone like Guthrie may have been a far more suitable option if only the coach was not so schizophrenic about playing the tallest back-line of this decade.
St Kilda match, again, if you happened to watch the game, it was their smalls that won them the game. Had we setup a small and nimble back-line, Maverick Weller and Jade Gresham don't kick their goals.

The Sydney game further highlighted how one dimensional and slow we are.
Flipping the argument around by saying our midfield is dominating, there's no discussion about the tall backline is incorrect as those such as myself have been banging on about it for a number of seasons already. Only now when the media begin to talk about do supporters like yourself start to pay attention to the issue.

If you're going to commence a post like that, try at least addressing the substance of what you've quoted.

 

[CatFan79]

Firstly, work rate and effort are one and the same.

Secondly, structure is what the discussion is based on.

Thirdly, you wouldn't get in the same room as "wise minds" - suburb even.

Fourthly you just repeated my points without addressing them.

Suburb even? Oh how clever.. NFI and full of yourself good combo.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Bullshit.
Just because the end result goes our way doesn't mean within that game there are concerns. The round one game against Hawthorn highlighted how slow and tall we can be. The third quarter was nothing but exposing our lack of pace.
The Adelaide match where Lynch and Walker played high up on the flanks and allowed Betts, Cameron to roam around the feet of Jenkins and caused us headaches in the second half.
The Carlton game was another example of how slow we setup at Etihad. Everitt is a tall but he's a very quick tall and Mackie/Henderson/Kolo could not deal with it, not to mention Armfield's 3 goals as well.
Second encounter with GWS where Greene kicked 3 on Mackie when someone like Guthrie may have been a far more suitable option if only the coach was not so schizophrenic about playing the tallest back-line of this decade.
St Kilda match, again, if you happened to watch the game, it was their smalls that won them the game. Had we setup a small and nimble back-line, Maverick Weller and Jade Gresham don't kick their goals.

The Sydney game further highlighted how one dimensional and slow we are.
Flipping the argument around by saying our midfield is dominating, there's no discussion about the tall backline is incorrect as those such as myself have been banging on about it for a number of seasons already. Only now when the media begin to talk about do supporters like yourself start to pay attention to the issue.

Whenever Scott is asked about this he gives the same answer , only 2 of our defenders being lonegan and Henderson play like traditional tall defenders. Scott clearly believes Taylor,Kolo and Mackie play more like medium defenders than tall defenders.

Perhaps our defenders are quicker than some of us think ? I mean scott knows exactly how fast ,agile and fit they are , we are all making assumptions

No doubt there are times when our tall backline has conceded goals that a smaller backline would of prevented , however here are also times when our tall backline has saved goals that a smaller backline would of conceded . its a balancing act , perhaps our height prevents more goals than it concedes ?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Flipping the argument around by saying our midfield is dominating, there's no discussion about the tall backline is incorrect as those such as myself have been banging on about it for a number of seasons already. Only now when the media begin to talk about do supporters like yourself start to pay attention to the issue.

Bobby can you please come up with your ideal 6 ?

I am just interested , I am trying to work out a way to get some more speed in and its not an easy thing to do .

 

[Partridge]

Bobby can you please come up with your ideal 6 ?

I am just interested , I am trying to work out a way to get some more speed in and its not an easy thing to do .

Right now, I'd take out Kolodjashnij and put in Bews.

It's no slur on Kolodjashnij, as he looks like he may develop into a fine player, but he's clearly behind Lonergan, Taylor, Henderson, and Mackie. Bews has been going well in the VFL by all reports.

I'm not sure it's 'ideal'. But I think it would be a little bit better balanced.

 

[Cezz The Catter]

Right now, I'd take out Kolodjashnij and put in Bews.

It's no slur on Kolodjashnij, as he looks like he may develop into a fine player, but he's clearly behind Lonergan, Taylor, Henderson, and Mackie. Bews has been going well in the VFL by all reports.

I'm not sure it's 'ideal'. But I think it would be a little bit better balanced.

Like the suggestion and I was on board early om this season. But when Bews plays AFL go damn he makes your head hurt, very trigger happy on the hospital handball rather than kick it himself. Makes me nervous.

If his VFL form is good though you cant hold him back. Fairly immoral.

 

[cynical]

The most immediate concern though is the performance of our midfield. They keep getting thrashed and our backline will continue to be pummelled. Most backlines will break down eventually under sheer weight of numbers.

Get the midfield running, and instantly there's less pressure on the backline. The ball is moving forward most of the time, not back.

With less entry into the D50, and less pressure to purely defend against the odds, the defensive unit will perform better and consideration can be given to running the ball out. At the moment we're simply trying to hold the wall against a barrage.

The midfield isnt just the midfield, backs and forwards do move through that area as well. So the slow backline makes the midfield slower.

If we fixed the slow backline issue then someone like GHS could help fix the clearance problem.

Chris Scott must think that if there is enough pressure in the midfield then teams will be forced to kick it long where our tall backline will dominate. The problem is it's a simplistic strategy and teams will combat it.

There is a reason why most teams have certain types of players in certain positions its because the optimal structures have been worked out. The only reason why you'd deviate from them is because you have talls who are more mobile and faster than normal.

We dont have guys like Matthew Scarlett or Darren Milburn in the backline so we should have a traditional 2 KPDs, 2 medium sized defenders and 2 smalls with a bit of pace.

If we arent playing Henderson forward then the option is either to drop lonners or kolo (id drop lonners as he isnt the future and kolo is a bit more mobile with better possession).

Then we have Taylor + Henderson as the talls, Mackie and Kolo as the mediums, Enright and Ruggles as the smalls. Guthie can also go back there as required and Bartel can go back to winning clearances.

 

[Go Hoops]

Fourthly you just repeated my points without addressing them.

Suburb even? Oh how clever.. NFI and full of yourself good combo.

You really have this 'gift' for making a complete fool of yourself. You still have not acknowledged workmate and effort are coach speak for the same thing despite citing them as seperate. Just as you have NFI about structures. Keep digging!

 

[Go Hoops]

Bobby can you please come up with your ideal 6 ?

I am just interested , I am trying to work out a way to get some more speed in and its not an easy thing to do .

It's a good question. Have we left it too late? I see Menegola is picked in the back end in the ressies. Also, be interesting to see where Cowan plays tomorrow. Two possibles to add some run from the back end.

On another note, what has Simon Lloyd added this year? Early days admittedly, but not much from where I sit.

 

[Cezz The Catter]

It's a good question. Have we left it too late? I see Menegola is picked in the back end in the ressies. Also, be interesting to see where Cowan plays tomorrow. Two possibles to add some run from the back end.

On another note, what has Simon Lloyd added this year? Early days admittedly, but not much from where I sit.

Scooter played off the halfback line last week. Not a bad return I thought, we are definitely lacking some defensive mids with Bartel and Guthrie being our only mid/def swingers. the rest are all more forward; Motlop, Caddy, Selwood, Dangerfield and Duncan was pretty awful when he was trialed back.

Would love to see Scooter become our Mr fix it back there, hes a good reader of the ball which is encouraging and he wasn't really a goal kicker at WCE. His one on one ability defensively being our only concern as hes not a traditional small defender, can almost instinctively play a sweeping role though. Id think that Cowan will play on the half back line and wing tonight. As for Menegola, jurys still out for me I think his capacity is a little overrated and he may have already reached his ceiling, hope he proves me wrong though.

 

[Daniel McL]

It must be hard to try to keep the balance in defence. Taylor & Hendo absolute locks, Lonergan has had good games this year & bad games but it's his final season & if he keeps doing the job gotta keep him in the team except for 1 or 2 'managed' throughout the season.

But then they want to get games into Kolodjashnij, which I completely understand & want, but that's when we start to get a bit too tall I'd say. Still with Enright, Mackie & Ruggles down there.

Will be interesting to see what they do for the rest of the year & going into the finals.

Feel like our back line will be better setup in 2017.
- Lonergan retired, Hendo takes the No.1 forward, Kolodjashnij takes No.3 forward (feel he plays better against those types than the smaller types he has had to play on this year).
- Thurlow return, his ball use will help a lot.
- Would be fine with Enright going on another year or stopping this year either way.
- Loss of experience in Lonergan & possibly Enright but just feel it's a better setup for the team.

2017 Back Line something like this:
Ruggles/Bews - Taylor - Enright/Mackie
Kolodjashnij - Henderson - Thurlow

 

[geelong_crazy26]

It's a good question. Have we left it too late? I see Menegola is picked in the back end in the ressies. Also, be interesting to see where Cowan plays tomorrow. Two possibles to add some run from the back end.

On another note, what has Simon Lloyd added this year? Early days admittedly, but not much from where I sit.

I think we can make 1 or 2 changes still .

The almighty Simon Lloyd apparently decided after we beat the Bulldogs to focus solely on developing our coaches , he plays no part in the tactics of our side .

 

[CatFan79]

You really have this 'gift' for making a complete fool of yourself. You still have not acknowledged workmate and effort are coach speak for the same thing despite citing them as seperate. Just as you have NFI about structures. Keep digging!

mentioned in the same way but mean different things by definition, either way you're diverting attention away from the fact you have NFI.

 

[THE CAT WRANGLER]

Too tall & slow wake up coaches kolo on Walters

 

[catempire]

If only we had Bews back there instead of Kolo we'd have won the clearances 40-zip.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Hahaha the Mackie dribble once more

 

[cats_09]

If only we had Bews back there instead of Kolo we'd have won the clearances 40-zip.

Might get him next week instead of Hendo