Do we need insurance for Hall??

[Batman]

Assuming we get Hall (and I think we should and will).

Tom Harley on One Week at a Time made an interesting comment about the Dogs getting Hall, he said something to the effect that the Dogs would have to radically restructure their game plan to accommodate Hall (ie a KP fwd target).

By Hall's own admission he is not right mentally (and the best club at managing players couldn't help him). Yes we are paying a cheap price but what happens if our cheap product breaks??

If Hall was to get suspended or injured, our radically changed game plan could well unravel without some insurance to fill Hall's role, ie a ready to go contested marking KP size player who could play a similar role to Hall. Personally I don't think we have such a player on the list.

Therefore I believe we may need to recruit a back up player who can contest overhead in the forward line.

The only player I can think of who may be available and may be cheap, is Cameron Cloke (who could also play back up ruck with Skipper's likely departure, and noting Cloke connection at Willy)

 

[chef]

Assuming we get Hall (and I think we should and will).

Tom Harley on One Week at a Time made an interesting comment about the Dogs getting Hall, he said something to the effect that the Dogs would have to radically restructure their game plan to accommodate Hall (ie a KP fwd target).

By Hall's own admission he is not right mentally (and the best club at managing players couldn't help him). Yes we are paying a cheap price but what happens if our cheap product breaks??

If Hall was to get suspended or injured, our radically changed game plan could well unravel without some insurance to fill Hall's role, ie a ready to go contested marking KP size player who could play a similar role to Hall. Personally I don't think we have such a player on the list.

Therefore I believe we may need to recruit a back up player who can contest overhead in the forward line.

The only player I can think of who may be available and may be cheap, is Cameron Cloke (who could also play back up ruck with Skipper's likely departure, and noting Cloke connection at Willy)

I thought that was a bit strange. It's not like we don't play a tall down there, instead of Hudson or Minson it will be Hall down there.

 

[The Boy From Brasil]

Therefore I believe we may need to recruit a back up player who can contest overhead in the forward line.

The only player I can think of who may be available and may be cheap, is Cameron Cloke (who could also play back up ruck with Skipper's likely departure, and noting Cloke connection at Willy)

We need a completely restructured forward line. IMO its not just a case of adding Hall and that will do the trick. Hall isn't going to play every single game. What do we do when he isn't playing? We are back to our midget forward line.

We really need two KPF's at least. Either we get two quality KPF's or we recruit one and develop the young talls.

All the other good teams have two KPF's. For us to have just one, means we will be having problems.

 

[Mutt]

Assuming we get Hall (and I think we should and will).

Tom Harley on One Week at a Time made an interesting comment about the Dogs getting Hall, he said something to the effect that the Dogs would have to radically restructure their game plan to accommodate Hall (ie a KP fwd target).

I didn't see the program you refer to but the prospect of changing our forward set-up should be welcomed. Pin-point passes to midget forwards has failed us in big games, as some on here warned it would.

 

[Bulldog Joe]

It is simply incorrect to suggest a radical change.
We use Hall (or whoever we are able to get) to replace Welsh as the principal deep forward.

We can occasionally use Minson, but he would have less time forward and more on ball as he takes a stronger role to keep the pressure off Hudson.

Hall just would not be used in the back half as Welsh has been, but a fit and firing Murphy could do that if required.

Also a fit and firing Murphy takes the lead up role at CHF.

 

[scraggers]

Big bad bazza would be good for us, BUT we cant afford for him to get frustrated and be out for weeks, and rocket would no him from his sydney days, would he be able to curb his aggresion?

 

[The Boy From Brasil]

It is simply incorrect to suggest a radical change.
We use Hall (or whoever we are able to get) to replace Welsh as the principal deep forward.

And that would be the only change you would make?

 

[mightymightydogs]

if something was to happen to hall, we could either keep doing what we're doing now or it could be a good opportunity to try out some young blokes - roughead, etc. maybe everitt?
not sure if they're ready, but yeah just an idea

 

[The Boy From Brasil]

if something was to happen to hall, we could either keep doing what we're doing now or it could be a good opportunity to try out some young blokes - roughead, etc. maybe everitt?
not sure if they're ready, but yeah just an idea

That is what worries me big time.

 

[bigdog54]

Agree. Our young blokes are our insurance. We just have to start playing them.

 

[Coooooooneyyyyyyyy]

And that would be the only change you would make?

Yep?

 

[Bulldog Joe]

And that would be the only change you would make?

I see it is the structural change.

I would see some personnel changes evolve, but that would depend on the development of the younger players.

Perhaps Easton Wood takes Harbrow's back pocket allowing Harbrow to take Eagle's midfield running spot. I would also be keen to see Sam Reid claim a spot for himself. It would also be great for someone like Boumann to come through.

There is plenty of talent to keep pressure on for spots and I would really like to see some of the older players (eg Mitch Hahn) squeezed out by the performances of the young talent.

 

[Kappa Tau]

Rocket could control him, paul roos was very soft..

I went to the Northern Bullants VS Port Melbourne Prelim Final yesterday down at North Port, and was watching Cameron Cloke. He has a great set of mits, is strong and a little more mobile then Minson. Think he would be worth investing in.

What can we lose? if he doesnt play well, he goes to Willy to play with Jason. We had Skipper being a list clogger this year, so Cameron just does the same if hes not up to it. He wont cost much either, as Carlton dont want him, and he knows this is about his last shot.

 

[Ghost of '85]

Rocket could control him, paul roos was very soft..

I went to the Northern Bullants VS Port Melbourne Prelim Final yesterday down at North Port, and was watching Cameron Cloke. He has a great set of mits, is strong and a little more mobile then Minson. Think he would be worth investing in.

What can we lose? if he doesnt play well, he goes to Willy to play with Jason. We had Skipper being a list clogger this year, so Cameron just does the same if hes not up to it. He wont cost much either, as Carlton dont want him, and he knows this is about his last shot.

Bit sad when you bag a bloke who's played his heart out for his club, provided a option if one of our ruckman went down all year and never dropped his head....Next year will be about the development of Cordy and Roughead as our next ruckman with Roughead a little more advanced with his body than Ayce at the moment. Everitt may also be a ruck option I just hope they keep him. Skip will prob not be there, but you should be applauding his effort this year.

 

[Kappa Tau]

Bit sad when you bag a bloke who's played his heart out for his club, provided a option if one of our ruckman went down all year and never dropped his head....Next year will be about the development of Cordy and Roughead as our next ruckman with Roughead a little more advanced with his body than Ayce at the moment. Everitt may also be a ruck option I just hope they keep him. Skip will prob not be there, but you should be applauding his effort this year.

Why do i need to applaud his effort? He had plenty of chances to come into the side, and didnt. His obviously not up to AFL, and the club knows that. PLayed a great year at Willi, but he has played 1 game out of 50 in the past 2 years for the bulldogs, which for a "developed" player is poor.

 

[memberforever]

I would pay Hall $150,000 base pay, however, if he is suspended, doesn't get paid. On top of that I would give him $2000, per goal.

 

[Gridlock'd]

Nope our side is good enough without him.

We only really need him for those last couple of game in September.v

 

[Catsace]

Bit sad when you bag a bloke who's played his heart out for his club, provided a option if one of our ruckman went down all year and never dropped his head....Next year will be about the development of Cordy and Roughead as our next ruckman with Roughead a little more advanced with his body than Ayce at the moment. Everitt may also be a ruck option I just hope they keep him. Skip will prob not be there, but you should be applauding his effort this year.

I asked this on another forum about Skipper....why has he just not been part of the Dog's plans in the last couple of years? I know it's 4 years ago, but his 5 goals against Geelong in 2005 were decisive in a match that i reckon sort of signalled to the world that the Dogs under Eade were about to click. I think that was something like Round 17 or so in 2005, when you were 5-10 or such. Your side won 5 games out of the last 6 to charge home, and your club's record since that match is pretty darn good bar 2007 i guess.

But i mean Skipper is tall, he has talent (you don't 'fluke' 5 goals against Egan/Scarlett do you?) and he isn't that old yet, maybe about 25-26? I probably haven't seen him play that often, but it appears he is slated to be delisted by the Dogs this year. Just reckon a bloke who can do that once can do it again that's all. At least for structure, he has to have some sort of upside. That's just my opinion of a bloke who remebers that day clearly.

 

[Mutt]

I see it is the structural change.

I would see some personnel changes evolve, but that would depend on the development of the younger players.

Perhaps Easton Wood takes Harbrow's back pocket allowing Harbrow to take Eagle's midfield running spot. I would also be keen to see Sam Reid claim a spot for himself. It would also be great for someone like Boumann to come through.

There is plenty of talent to keep pressure on for spots and I would really like to see some of the older players (eg Mitch Hahn) squeezed out by the performances of the young talent.

This is what I'm terrified of! Get Barry Hall, tinker around the edges a little bit and finish 3rd again!

Barry Hall is not the Messiah. Barry is a good start but we need a more robust forward strategy and we need to play the younger talls more (or get more talls who are up to standard) or we will simply repeat our current mistakes.

If we don't change the forward structure, we won't get different results when it counts.

 

[The Boy From Brasil]

This is what I'm terrified of! Get Barry Hall, tinker around the edges a little bit and finish 3rd again!

Barry Hall is not the Messiah. Barry is a good start but we need a more robust forward strategy and we need to play the younger talls more (or get more talls who are up to standard) or we will simply repeat our current mistakes.

If we don't change the forward structure, we won't get different results when it counts.

You make some good points. Agree with everything you say.

The thing that worries me is that we think that getting Hall will be the answer and not do much else. And IMO if we do that, we will go backwards. There would be a temptation for people to think that because we got so close, that we don't have to do much to win a grand final. And this thinking worries me because it ignores the improvement that other sides will have this year. It is possible that we get Hall and still finish fifth or so. Its such an even competition.

If you look at Geelong, St Kilda and Hawthorn, the bulk of their forward line is tall key forwards or clever crumbers with a couple of good medium players there as well. Our forward line is basically all mediums. Minson is a tall but not good enough to play as a forward.

There is no potency in our forward line at all. It requires precise delivery which as we all know, you don't get in finals. So that is why I say we need to restructure the forward line. I would like two tall forwards,at least one clever crumber and a couple of mediums. Which is a million miles from what we have at the moment.

Even allowing for the shocking umpiring and bad kicking, the number of inside 50's we had on Friday, we still should have kicked a winning score and not the 7 goals that we kicked.

 

[Bulldog Joe]

This is what I'm terrified of! Get Barry Hall, tinker around the edges a little bit and finish 3rd again!

Barry Hall is not the Messiah. Barry is a good start but we need a more robust forward strategy and we need to play the younger talls more (or get more talls who are up to standard) or we will simply repeat our current mistakes.

If we don't change the forward structure, we won't get different results when it counts.

We are the highest scoring team in the comp and in an ultra defensive pre-final we have gone down by 7 points after missing at least 5 very gettables chances we created. The problem was in the execution. We created enough opportunity.

If we had taken those chances we would be preparing for a winnable grand final with the current set up.

One key forward that can take 3 or 4 marks inside 50 added to the mix is all that is needed.

Of course it would be nice if a player stepped up to perform like Franklin of 08 or Riewoldt of 09, but the fundamental team plan does not need to be re-invented.

The bulk of the players will be the same. The basic plan can be the same. A 5-10% improvement in efficiency into the forward line would be huge.

The real improvement for 2010 will be to bring the defensive pressure of the prelim to every game.

What we must NOT DO is forgo an area of strength and that is the spread of goalkickers. The Dogs have been high scoring because they have the MOST goalkickers. This must be continued.

 

[Mutt]

You make some good points. Agree with everything you say.

The thing that worries me is that we think that getting Hall will be the answer and not do much else. And IMO if we do that, we will go backwards. There would be a temptation for people to think that because we got so close, that we don't have to do much to win a grand final. And this thinking worries me because it ignores the improvement that other sides will have this year. It is possible that we get Hall and still finish fifth or so. Its such an even competition.

If you look at Geelong, St Kilda and Hawthorn, the bulk of their forward line is tall key forwards or clever crumbers with a couple of good medium players there as well. Our forward line is basically all mediums. Minson is a tall but not good enough to play as a forward.

There is no potency in our forward line at all. It requires precise delivery which as we all know, you don't get in finals. So that is why I say we need to restructure the forward line. I would like two tall forwards,at least one clever crumber and a couple of mediums. Which is a million miles from what we have at the moment.

Even allowing for the shocking umpiring and bad kicking, the number of inside 50's we had on Friday, we still should have kicked a winning score and not the 7 goals that we kicked.

Agree with all of this BFB.

Our current forward structure has been created to get the best from the personnel Eade was prepared to select. It is a forward structue which relies on ageing small forwards who are either hit on the lead with a precision pass, or who turn an opponent and run torwards goal (a type of Pagan's paddock.)

We need to develop a blueprint for a forward line which will win finals and which maximises our team strengths elsewhere on the ground. Clarkson (the little ponce) did this with Hawthorn and then recruited/traded for the players who fit the blueprint and designed a gameplan consistent with the blueprint.

Tinkering around the sdges will lead to more tears I'm afraid. Time to be more bold and aggressive at trade time. Time to select the team based on form and with a bias to development.

 

[immortalmike]

We are the highest scoring team in the comp and in an ultra defensive pre-final we have gone down by 7 points after missing at least 5 very gettables chances we created.

If we had taken those chances we would be preparing for a winnable grand final with the current set up.

One key forward that can take 3 or 4 marks inside 50 added to the mix is all that is needed.

Of course it would be nice if a player stepped up to perform like Franklin of 08 or Riewoldt of 09, but the fundamental team plan does not need to be re-invented.

The bulk of the players will be the same. The basic plan can be the same. A 5-10% improvement in efficiency into the forward line would be huge.

The real improvement for 2010 will be to bring the defensive pressure of the prelim to every game.

Totally agree with this. People act like we didn't have more scoring shots than the Saints. Had we kicked 3.2 instead of 1.4 in the last quarter we'd all be booking our tickets right now.

 

[Mutt]

We are the highest scoring team in the comp and in an ultra defensive pre-final we have gone down by 7 points after missing at least 5 very gettables chances we created.

If we had taken those chances we would be preparing for a winnable grand final with the current set up.

One key forward that can take 3 or 4 marks inside 50 added to the mix is all that is needed.

Of course it would be nice if a player stepped up to perform like Franklin of 08 or Riewoldt of 09, but the fundamental team plan does not need to be re-invented.

The bulk of the players will be the same. The basic plan can be the same. A 5-10% improvement in efficiency into the forward line would be huge.

The real improvement for 2010 will be to bring the defensive pressure of the prelim to every game.

Not good enough Joe!

Those who argued that our personnel and game plan would win us a flag have all had their day and it hasn't delivered. The addition of Barry Hall will, of itself, not be enough to ensure we can get to the Grand Final.

If we refuse to structure the forward line correctly and insist on playing old players in preference to developing our kids, we will get the same result: win the finals against teams outside the top 4 and lose to teams with a genuine chance of winning the flag. Even worse, we will have the young players developing much more slowly than they should and will risk an exodus of young talent to other teams who really want them.

 

[The Boy From Brasil]

We are the highest scoring team in the comp and in an ultra defensive pre-final we have gone down by 7 points after missing at least 5 very gettables chances we created.

If we had taken those chances we would be preparing for a winnable grand final with the current set up.

One key forward that can take 3 or 4 marks inside 50 added to the mix is all that is needed.

Of course it would be nice if a player stepped up to perform like Franklin of 08 or Riewoldt of 09, but the fundamental team plan does not need to be re-invented.

The bulk of the players will be the same. The basic plan can be the same. A 5-10% improvement in efficiency into the forward line would be huge.

The real improvement for 2010 will be to bring the defensive pressure of the prelim to every game.

I don't agree Bulldog Joe.

In 2008 we played two top sides in the finals, lost both and kicked 11 goals and 7 goals.

In 2009 we played two top sides in the finals, lost both and kicked 12 goals and 7 goals.

What has changed?

Yes we were absolutely fantastic on Friday night. I could not be any more proud of the boys. But our forward line was abysmal. If we had a decent forward line we would have won by five goals.

For me, it is all about next year. We should aim to be the best we possibly can. Hawthorn, Geelong and St kilda all have healthy forward line structures that is potent and can stand up under finals pressure to kick winning scores. I don't see why we can't strive for that as well. I don't see why we should go with the same medium forward line that lets us down every finals series.

Shouldn't we be trying to get quality talls and crumbers into our forward structure that can kick goals without relying on perfect delivery?