Docherty, Henderson or Armstrong

[Knightmare]

All due respect KM but if this is the group of players we are targeting to play in the 2015 season then I'm at a loss.

The only quality in this group some what age relevant is Walker.

All of Simpson, Kelly and Murphy will be 31 - 33 and 9/10th's finished.

Not a fan of Shannon Hurn or Bryce Gibbs?

Ibbotson is only in the middle portion of his career also.

I'm not as concerned as others are over age, particularly with those veteran backman. I'd rather have veterans down back rather than youth because they typically play better as a collective unit and better know when to stay with their man, when to help their teammates and can also instruct those around them on where they need to be and seem to play better in sync which more than any other region on the field I'd class as a factor vital to winning.
Look at how well those Geelong backlines were constructed these past 7 seasons. They've never had a young back half but they've always had the strongest back half in the competition and those guys play with a near psychic connection just knowing how to play as good team defense as you'll ever see.

I'd be happy to add Heath Scotland who despite being 33 is still by position still very effective as a rebounder. I'd say the same of Josh Hunt who also had another strong season this year as a 31 year old and could also still play another season.

Playing down back doesn't take it out of your body as much with the collisions and injury risks relatively lower than other positions on the field.

Simpson last season down back played career best football and was not only rebounding but getting stops and beating his man consistently. I see no reason why he doesn't have another 2-3 years left in him.

Kelly similarly is still exceptionally productive and can play for another 2-3 years if he wants to.

Murphy next season may be in his last season but he's still effective and if he has another productive season next year with his pace still there and his ability to rebound still there he'd be another viable option who could play that role as a back flanker particularly effectively.

It's like looking at Brent Harvey. He's 35 but plays like he's 25. You judge players on a case by case basis. If they can still play as Simpson/Kelly/Murphy all can to such a high level then it doesn't matter. None of them have lost their pace, their bodies are still holding up so having them as 30 year olds is not an issue.

 

[KJpie]

Knightmare said: ↑

Andrew Walker, Kade Simpson, Garrick Ibbotson, James Kelly, James Gwilt and Robert Murphy will all also be free agents next season so I'd probably wait till for next offseason to really address the need.​

KJPie said:
All due respect KM but if this is the group of FA players we are targeting to play in the 2015 season then I'm at a loss.

The only quality in this group some what age relevant is Walker.

All of Simpson, Kelly and Murphy will be 31 - 33 and 9.9/10th's finished.

Not a fan of Shannon Hurn or Bryce Gibbs?

Absolutely Hurn more than Gibbs however as per above I never mentioned or queried them as possible FA.

 

[KJpie]

I'd be happy to add Heath Scotland who despite being 33 is still by position still very effective as a rebounder.

Sorry I don't understand he has been offered the option of another year at the Blues or Retirement. If he takes the one year on offer from the Scum then he will be 35 by the time he is available to play for us in 2015. The recruitment of a 35 year old makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Medders123]

I think Henderson is by far the best fit for us out of the 3 mentioned. There was talk about a three way deal with Adelaide and Brisbane so that Adelaide can get Polec. Just throwing this idea out there, would a three way deal like this work?

Where each of the 3 clubs gets the following:
Brisbane: Jackson Paine + perhaps our third round pick
Adelaide: Polec
Collingwood: Ricky Henderson

 

[Knightmare]

Wel

Well ive never compared him to shaw, shaw is clearly levels above henderson. But i rate him level if not higher than goldsack who i see as replacing him.

Im trying to find a way to get that pick 19, ( shaw, goldsack and 45 for adams , 19 and 53) . Henderson would be the replacement for goldsack and maxwell.

U dont rate him thats fine, i dont rate goldsack. We agree to disagree

Goldsack I despite popular opinion class as a forward and I agree with you that his play as a backman is not suffient as an only average stopper and a poor rebounder. As a defender he wouldn't be in my best team and as a forward would be a fringe selection.

Maxwell I don't have in my best 22 (with Reid largely my direct Maxwell replacement) so I wouldn't be comparing Henderson to any of our other current existing backmen.

If Henderson should be compared to anyone on our list already it should be Oxley who I'd class as a similar standard player by position who has also developed later. Just perhaps a younger, leaner bodied version. Both can rebound and find plenty of the footy in that rebounding role but both have some issues going the other way 1v1 and lack a bit of pace/agility to go with the quicker types.
I rate both pretty evenly so I'd lean towards keeping Oxley in favour of add Henderson with Oxley only requiring a rookie position to retain whereas Henderson would require a senior position to accomodate and currency to acquire which is a waste for a player who like Oxley I don't evaluate as best 22 for our team.

A Fasolo could go back and be more effective if we're really looking for a solution. Otherwise just add an unwanted Josh Hunt and that's sufficient for a year if not confident in what we have already and go for someone who can really make our back half more dynamic next year.

 

[ksardog]

Goldsack I despite popular opinion class as a forward and I agree with you that his play as a backman is not suffient as an only average stopper and a poor rebounder. As a defender he wouldn't be in my best team and as a forward would be a fringe selection.

Maxwell I don't have in my best 22 (with Reid largely my direct Maxwell replacement) so I wouldn't be comparing Henderson to any of our other current existing backmen.

If Henderson should be compared to anyone on our list already it should be Oxley who I'd class as a similar standard player by position who has also developed later. Just perhaps a younger, leaner bodied version. Both can rebound and find plenty of the footy in that rebounding role but both have some issues going the other way 1v1 and lack a bit of pace/agility to go with the quicker types.
I rate both pretty evenly so I'd lean towards keeping Oxley in favour of add Henderson with Oxley only requiring a rookie position to retain whereas Henderson would require a senior position to accomodate and currency to acquire which is a waste for a player who like Oxley I don't evaluate as best 22 for our team.

A Fasolo could go back and be more effective if we're really looking for a solution. Otherwise just add an unwanted Josh Hunt and that's sufficient for a year if not confident in what we have already and go for someone who can really make our back half more dynamic next year.

I am a fan of oxley and would put him on the list along with frost

I would keep reid forward as we look far more damaging and threatening when he plays there.

Fasolo i would never ever play in the backline. Just a no no. Hasnt got the discipline to be defensive minded on an opponent and likes a goal far too much to be a defender.

My backline would be

Frost Brown Williams

Toovey Keeffe Henderson

Henderson can also do the kickouts as he is a long penetrating kick and can hit a target

Oxley has to bang the door down to get in the backline but in time will make it. Will get his chances during the year for sure

My forward lne

Elliott Cloke Wight

Beams Reid Fasolo

 

[Knightmare]

I am a fan of oxley and would put him on the list along with frost

I would keep reid forward as we look far more damaging and threatening when he plays there.

Fasolo i would never ever play in the backline. Just a no no. Hasnt got the discipline to be defensive minded on an opponent and likes a goal far too much to be a defender.

My backline would be

Frost Brown Williams

Toovey Keeffe Henderson

Henderson can also do the kickouts as he is a long penetrating kick and can hit a target

Oxley has to bang the door down to get in the backline but in time will make it. Will get his chances during the year for sure

My forward lne

Elliott Cloke Wight

Beams Reid Fasolo

Reid I'd say is most damaging as a rebounding defender. He's just been forced to play more as a key defender rather than that freer Maxwell type role. When Reid gets the opportunity to rebound by foot he's the most damaging and can create the quickest scoring opportunities of any rebounder which is something we badly lack.

Fasolo down back would be made to learn discipline. As with Leon Davis, Fasolo has the right mix of attributes to make the switch to back half. He's not only an excellent kick with that precision, accuracy and vision to hit those targets but he also has a suitable 1v1 game with that body on body strength he has and his ability to take marks and read the ball in flight so natural. He could very possibly become as good as Heath Shaw was in that same role with the only difference being that Shaw is more a run and carry player whereas Fasolo is more a kicking rebounder.
Fasolo in the back end of 2012 despite his initial selfishness and love for a goal showed a clear change in mindset and become much more unselfish finding those forward 50 targets and becoming much more of a score assist player. As a back flanker a love for kicking a goal is of zero relevance as his role would be in the back half and his job would be to beat his direct opponent and generate drive.

Next year my ideal team would be:
B: Josh Hunt Lachlan Keeffe Alan Toovey
HB: Paul Seedsman Nathan Brown Ben Reid
CEN: Heath Shaw Scott Pendlebury Harry O'Brien
HF: Tim Broomhead Travis Cloke Steele Sidebottom
F: Quinten Lynch James Podsiadly Paul Chapman
FOLL: Brodie Grundy Dayne Beams Dane Swan
BENCH: Luke Ball Marley Wlliams Alex Fasolo Patrick Karnezis

But alas. I'm living in dreamland with Chapman most likely to join Essendon under Mark Thompson as coach and Collingwood are yet to express interest in Podsiadly and with the likely addition of Jesse White he would not be in calculations sadly. And Shaw most probably going to be moved on.

 

[kevind]

Next year my ideal team would be:
B: Josh Hunt Lachlan Keeffe Alan Toovey
HB: Paul Seedsman Nathan Brown Ben Reid
CEN: Heath Shaw Scott Pendlebury Harry O'Brien
HF: Tim Broomhead Travis Cloke Steele Sidebottom
F: Quinten Lynch James Podsiadly Paul Chapman
FOLL: Brodie Grundy Dayne Beams Dane Swan
BENCH: Luke Ball Marley Wlliams Alex Fasolo Patrick Karnezis

But alas. I'm living in dreamland with Chapman most likely to join Essendon under Mark Thompson as coach and Collingwood are yet to express interest in Podsiadly and with the likely addition of Jesse White he would not be in calculations sadly. And Shaw most probably going to be moved on.[/quote]

This idea of playing 3 key defenders in the backline, as other posters also have suggested, has me absolutely bemused.

WE were something like 15th in the AFL for rebound out of defence in 2013, and you want to play an extra key defender? That would likely send us to 18th in the AFL for rebound. IMO, this will never happen.

Ben Reid had been ordinary as a KB for at least 2 years and improved out of sight when moved forward towards the end of the year. Small sample size, I know, but he averaged over 2 goals a game. By today's standards that puts him up with all but the very best of KFs. If we could ever get decent kicking skills and quicker ball movement into the side he will be even better up forward. Had he played in Hawthorn's forward line this year with their superb kicking and fast ball movement he would have kicked over 50 goals.

 

[Jasper84]

o

Next year my ideal team would be:
B: Josh Hunt Lachlan Keeffe Alan Toovey
HB: Paul Seedsman Nathan Brown Ben Reid
CEN: Heath Shaw Scott Pendlebury Harry O'Brien
HF: Tim Broomhead Travis Cloke Steele Sidebottom
F: Quinten Lynch James Podsiadly Paul Chapman
FOLL: Brodie Grundy Dayne Beams Dane Swan
BENCH: Luke Ball Marley Wlliams Alex Fasolo Patrick Karnezis

But alas. I'm living in dreamland with Chapman most likely to join Essendon under Mark Thompson as coach and Collingwood are yet to express interest in Podsiadly and with the likely addition of Jesse White he would not be in calculations sadly. And Shaw most probably going to be moved on.

This idea of playing 3 key defenders in the backline, as other posters also have suggested, has me absolutely bemused.

WE were something like 15th in the AFL for rebound out of defence in 2013, and you want to play an extra key defender? That would likely send us to 18th in the AFL for rebound. IMO, this will never happen.

Ben Reid had been ordinary as a KB for at least 2 years and improved out of sight when moved forward towards the end of the year. Small sample size, I know, but he averaged over 2 goals a game. By today's standards that puts him up with all but the very best of KFs. If we could ever get decent kicking skills and quicker ball movement into the side he will be even better up forward. Had he played in Hawthorn's forward line this year with their superb kicking and fast ball movement he would have kicked over 50 goals.[/quote]
Might try and coax lingy out of retirement while we dig through Geelongs veteran bins.

 

[wicksy]

Can I say "NEITHER"?

I'm only talking about Henderson and Docherty because Armstrong should even be mentioned he's that bad.

Docherty for a player taken at pick 12 has been disappointing in his first two years of senior footy, there's little doubt there while Henderson is both injury prone and inconsistent.

I wouldn't complain if we gave up pick 27 for either of them but I'd obviously prefer others who have been linked to us or are on the market.

Taylor Adams must be, and still is our number one priority.

Garbage.... Do you even watch football?

 

[Travis bloke]

He is what heard.

Collingwood give pick 27 for White and Armstrong .Armstrong is the steak knives.
Pies trying to get Ricky Henderson from Adelaide but Adelaide are saying he is not for trade.
Docherty will become a blue.
Heath shaw and pick 11 for Adams and pick 9.
Karnesis well not too fussed with this guy I think he is more keen to play for the pies than we are securing him.May use a late 4 otr 5 round pick on him at best.

 

[Ed D]

o

This idea of playing 3 key defenders in the backline, as other posters also have suggested, has me absolutely bemused.

WE were something like 15th in the AFL for rebound out of defence in 2013, and you want to play an extra key defender? That would likely send us to 18th in the AFL for rebound. IMO, this will never happen.

Ben Reid had been ordinary as a KB for at least 2 years and improved out of sight when moved forward towards the end of the year. Small sample size, I know, but he averaged over 2 goals a game. By today's standards that puts him up with all but the very best of KFs. If we could ever get decent kicking skills and quicker ball movement into the side he will be even better up forward. Had he played in Hawthorn's forward line this year with their superb kicking and fast ball movement he would have kicked over 50 goals.
Might try and coax lingy out of retirement while we dig through Geelongs veteran bins.

Maybe the team wasn't rebounding as they weren't winning the one on one contests? 3 key defenders has worked in previous years, and a lot of other teams do it too. I'm guessing Freo were the best defensive side in the comp with McPharlin/Dawson/Johnson playing in the same side. A lot would come down to team structure. You talk of quick ball movement and decent skills, that's what the team missed when Reid wasn't in the backline. Reid in 2011 he was AA, 2012 he was injured and this year he played 1/2 the season as a forward. He can play both ends but I don't think it's right to say he's average as a defender when he hasn't had a run at it for 2 years.

Agree with you about the Geelong players, they're all past their best. Hunt can't play tall or small and his skills are severely overrated, Pods is a geriatric and Chappy looks to have 1 season left in him.

 

[ksardog]

Reid I'd say is most damaging as a rebounding defender. He's just been forced to play more as a key defender rather than that freer Maxwell type role. When Reid gets the opportunity to rebound by foot he's the most damaging and can create the quickest scoring opportunities of any rebounder which is something we badly lack.

Fasolo down back would be made to learn discipline. As with Leon Davis, Fasolo has the right mix of attributes to make the switch to back half. He's not only an excellent kick with that precision, accuracy and vision to hit those targets but he also has a suitable 1v1 game with that body on body strength he has and his ability to take marks and read the ball in flight so natural. He could very possibly become as good as Heath Shaw was in that same role with the only difference being that Shaw is more a run and carry player whereas Fasolo is more a kicking rebounder.
Fasolo in the back end of 2012 despite his initial selfishness and love for a goal showed a clear change in mindset and become much more unselfish finding those forward 50 targets and becoming much more of a score assist player. As a back flanker a love for kicking a goal is of zero relevance as his role would be in the back half and his job would be to beat his direct opponent and generate drive.

Next year my ideal team would be:
B: Josh Hunt Lachlan Keeffe Alan Toovey
HB: Paul Seedsman Nathan Brown Ben Reid
CEN: Heath Shaw Scott Pendlebury Harry O'Brien
HF: Tim Broomhead Travis Cloke Steele Sidebottom
F: Quinten Lynch James Podsiadly Paul Chapman
FOLL: Brodie Grundy Dayne Beams Dane Swan
BENCH: Luke Ball Marley Wlliams Alex Fasolo Patrick Karnezis

But alas. I'm living in dreamland with Chapman most likely to join Essendon under Mark Thompson as coach and Collingwood are yet to express interest in Podsiadly and with the likely addition of Jesse White he would not be in calculations sadly. And Shaw most probably going to be moved on.

you have made these statements about keeping goldsack because you think he is better than henderson and a good forward but found no room in your side. whats the deal with that?
hunt and podsiadly??? WTF cease talking football with u. hav a good day

 

[ksardog]

He is what heard.

Collingwood give pick 27 for White and Armstrong .Armstrong is the steak knives.
Pies trying to get Ricky Henderson from Adelaide but Adelaide are saying he is not for trade.
Docherty will become a blue.
Heath shaw and pick 11 for Adams and pick 9.
Karnesis well not too fussed with this guy I think he is more keen to play for the pies than we are securing him.May use a late 4 otr 5 round pick on him at best.

if we take armstrong im convinced buckley cant judge talent. anthony corrie clone

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I thinnk we should be sticking to securing Adams and White first and formost while trying to keep 10 AND 11 if possible.

Henderson should then be the next target. Karnezis will probably find his way to us regardless. Be it via trade or PSD

 

[4#Didak#4]

I'm not a big wrap for any of the back flankers available.

Docherty is quick as anything but he was drafted too early and still requires more work to make the grade. Will need to improve his kick and build a strong 1v1 game.

Henderson is a 25 year old still looking to establish himself as a regular. That doesn't give me all that much confidence in his ability as a one way offensive minded flanker who a bit like Jordan Russell struggles the other way.

Then Armstrong while he's an excellent kick it's concerning that at his second club (Sydney) he hasn't been able to make the grade in their excellent disciplined system. Sydney draft guys to play them and give them confidence as soon as they come to the club pretty much saying "the position is yours to lose" and backing the guy in. Very light bodied and struggles 1v1 with his ability to win his own footy also very limited.

I'd be more inclined not to pay a thing. Josh Hunt as someone prematurely delisted by Geelong can still play and would be a perfect fit in our situation as a suitable one year back pocket who can still beat his direct opponent, provide meaningful rebound with that 65m kick of his and also present the optimal kickout option with those penetrating kicks also exceptionally precise.
Otherwise I'd consider a David Mirra as the better performed state league back flanker who has a strong two way game in the Michael Hibberd mold or perhaps a Joel Wilkinson if looking for an athletic shutdown player as another rookie option. Otherwise if James Battersby or Zac Jones is available in the second round they would also be suitable choices as back flankers.

In saying all this I'd wait for next free agent period to seriously make a move for a backman. Shannon Hurn would be my target as that damaging back flanker as one if not the best penetrating back flanker in the competition with Bryce Gibbs someone else I'd look at as the ultimate back pocket as a premier stopper who can also accumulate and provide meaningful rebound. I'd off either/or/both the big money to make the move to Collingwood with what we are saving on not paying Dale Thomas this year.
Andrew Walker, Kade Simpson, Garrick Ibbotson, James Kelly, James Gwilt and Robert Murphy will all also be free agents next season so I'd probably wait till for next offseason to really address the need.

I am with you on this one KM. Docherty, Henderson & Armstrong all do nothing for me especially when the pick 27 is in the conversation.

Josh Hunt is one I had forgotten about but definitely worth considering as much as many will scoff at that. He can plug a whole for 1-2 years and provide us with a real weapon on the kick outs which we have really struggled with. I think he would be a very canny pick that would complement our side in the short term for little cost.

There are some really good RFA's coming up next year like Boak & Mundy. However as you mentioned I think Bryce Gibbs is our man. Yes I said Bryce Squibbs. Lots think he is no good, but I think coming off half back he is elite and can be that offensive half back we crave, he would be an upgrade on Heath. We will certainly be in the picture with our salary cap given the room we have cleared this year and would happily throw the cash we were not prepared to throw at Daisy. Hopefully we are proactive on this front & had a preliminary talk with his manager, as I am sure Carlton did with Daisy and as Sydney did with Buddy.

 

[Robroy22]

Knightmare said: "Fasolo down back would be made to learn discipline."

Yay....couldn't agree more. It's what we need from the boy and it would grow his game immeasurably.

 

[MyManLynch]

Most important free agent to sign next year is Ben Reid.

 

[ksardog]

Most important free agent to sign next year is Ben Reid.

100 % agree. front end his contract while we have the space

 

[jmac70]

It would almost be the end of me if we picked up Josh Hunt. The guy looks like a condom full of nuts and plays like a girl guide (and that's being unfair on girl guides). Replacing Shaw with Hunt would place Bucks well and truly in the crazy Voss league. Please god no!

 

[RuFiO]

It would almost be the end of me if we picked up Josh Hunt. The guy looks like a condom full of nuts and plays like a girl guide (and that's being unfair on girl guides). Replacing Shaw with Hunt would place Bucks well and truly in the crazy Voss league. Please god no!

He seems like whipping boy material.

 

[jmac70]

He seems like whipping boy material.

He would make Simon Buckley look like a favourite son.

 

[4#Didak#4]

I thinnk we should be sticking to securing Adams and White first and formost while trying to keep 10 AND 11 if possible.

Henderson should then be the next target. Karnezis will probably find his way to us regardless. Be it via trade or PSD

I think this is pretty much the way it should play out. We really need to make sure we keep those two early picks. Unless the Heath Shaw thing falls over and he ends up staying which I think is still a possibility if clubs try & play us. If it does fall over it will mean we have to use one of our early picks on Adams.

Then we will no doubt look to get White with pick 27 which is near enough to his value. I don't think Henderson will be possible unless we abandon the White idea.

A lot of our later remaining picks will be rookie upgrades I would think. So do we throw the pick 53 at Brisbane just to get Karnezis done or do we hold it as a speculative draft pick? I am thinking we just get it done as if we pick him its for a specific role where there are not a lot of options about. I am not that fussed about Kanezis but recognise he could possibly fill that lead up medium forward role we have been missing.

So if Shaw does leave on our terms we would have Adams plus two first round picks (effectively 3 first round picks on top of 3 last year). To me thats enourmous it will mean we have the following first rounders over the last 3 years despite finishing 1st, 4th & 6th (ladder posi) :
2011 Adams
2012 Grundy, Kennedy, Broomhead
2013 Two more first rounders

That sets you up for a long time to come, especially if you get this years picks right as the other 4 are going to be quality players. I would be picking purely on best available basis and not taking any risks.

Add to that two young role players in White & Karnezis who both add something specifc we are missing and we are looking OK. On top of this there is also the delisted free agents & PSD to add someone else in a specific role like a Josh Hunt and try & cherry pick the rookies once again.

 

[4#Didak#4]

He would make Simon Buckley look like a favourite son.

I don't think the Hunt thing will happen given our youth push, but he would actually be a great temporary fit. The guy is a double premiership player that has held his position in one of the all time great sides & backlines, a bit harsh to compare him to Simon Buckley.

Defensively he is very disciplined and is just about a specialist in the kick out department which is a great problem in our side. He is not a running rebounder by any means, but if we wanted to shore up & settle our backline with the departure of Shaw then there is not too many available that could do better apart from Nick Smith. But Smith would cost a high pick & Hunt is effectively free and will play for Eddies pocket change.

 

[Ketchup]

Josh hunt is a ****ing hack