Cars & Transportation Feminism - over it

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bunsen burner

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In Sydney you have the choice of 2 newspapers:

1. The Daily Telegraph - low brow right winged rugby league paper. If you have a protruding bottom lip and love Tony Abbott then this paper is for you

2. The Sydney Morning Herald - a tabloid masquerading as a broadsheet but more intelligent than the Tele. But everyday you are hit over the head with it's feminism and feminist columnists. Starting to get nauseating


So let me clarify before we go on: yes, I still think men get a better deal than women across the board, and given the history of lack of women's rights I can see why they're a bit touchy.

But no need to go overboard like I see every single day. yesterday there was an article about written by some feminazi complaining about Les Mis (I haven't seen it btw). She objected to the women in the movie not having an equal role, and the womens only role was to be fawning over the men. Whilst I do look back at old films from the 70s and earlier (esp 50s) it is quite contemptible that women are portrayed like this. But this these days is rare and probably only came about because it's a remake of an old play (is that what it is?). Really not worth women getting their knickers in a bunch over (or is it "panties"?). I noticed the other day that in a new Sherlock Holmes series Watson is female - clearly the world is changing to give women better equality. For every Les Mis there is a female Watson.

Today's article:

I didn't read all her shit but the gist of it was: "Women should be able to have their cake and eat it to, and if we can't it's men's fault". To be more specific, it was a tirade of resentment about women not being able to have careers and babies too.

Let's be clear about this: If women want a career, they can have a career, no one is stopping them. If they want to be a home maker then they can be a home maker, no one is stopping them. The problem exists because the biologically women find it hard to have both:

1. If they pursue a career and put child birth off until the last minute, or leave it to late, many end up regretting it
2. If they forego their career and decide to be a home maker then some regret they have missed out on a career. Some feel that society is telling them "run along now and do what you were born to do

Well guess what ladies, this is not the fault of men. It's unfortunate but it is what it is. You're just going to have to deal with it.

Then there's the traditional gender roles thing. It's 2013 and we have choices, and it is accepted if roles are reversed, yet I still see these feminists get their knockers in a knot over these roles.

Guess what ladies? For most families the traditional roles work best. Men who have the egos go out and provide and protect their families, and no doubt women are better at parenting.

I just can't fathom why these feminists are so hell bent interpreting this as "women should do what they are told and get in the kitchen"? With most Australian couples it just isn't like that. These old traditional role models are not followed blindly. It's 2013 and we are intelligent and have choices. The facts are that most families weigh up the options and determine the traditional way is the best way. Some people go the other way because the female might be career minded or might have better earning capacity. This is well received in the community and is a viable choice for many couples.

Just because back in the 50s there was a lot of blind chauvenism and women were told rather than given choices does not mean if people choose the same end result today, that they arrived there with the same thinking that was common place in the 50s.

Whilst we need to continually improve equal gender rights, feminists need to stop whining about every little thing. No one takes a feminist seriously, but people take women with well articulated points seriously.
 
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Life's tough being a white, Australian man isn't it?
I've been vocal about this many times before so you're not telling me anything I don't know.

Australian
Middle class
Male
White

Doesn't get any easier.

But still don't want feminism shoved in my face every day. Of course I could just not read it, but then I don't have anything to complain about, do I?
 

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Guess what ladies? For most families the traditional roles work best. Men who have the egos go out and provide and protect their families, and no doubt women are better at parenting.
Attitudes like this is why feminism is still relevant and important.
 
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Attitudes like this is why feminism is still relevant and important.
Sounds like you just don't get it. You think because most people find the traditional way works best that the reasoning behind it is

"hey you're female, go make me a sandwich"

That's just not true. The truth is for most people, one all the choice and options are weighed up it ends up being the best way to do it.

Given you are gay and don't have a wife or (I assume) kids, how would you actually know anything about this matter?

Personally my wife is way better than me at nurturing kids and from observation of many other couples it's the same (I have noticed exceptions). In terms of providing for family? We are probably equal in those respects, but for the whole family balance, the trad way works best for us as it does for most family units.

Feel free to dispute that but I suspect your whole argument is going to be a big bitch cry about gender roles.
 
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So you're "over" feminism because of some columns in a newspaper?
Correct.

Every self respecting woman is essentially a feminist.
Depends how far they go with it. If they are preoccupied with fighting the fight every moment and about every little thing then there's good chance they are misguided.

Every couple of weeks or so the "equal wages" debate pops up. It's sort of feminism but at the same time is a very valid point and until we get it right people should keep speaking up.

But complaining about a female lead not getting as much of a starring role in a les Mis? Or complaining that women are unfairly treated (by men) because nature dictates it hard to have career and home making time?

Spare me, it's nauseating behavior.[/quote][/quote]
 
What do modern feminists in 2013 actually want?
aw-gap-620x349.jpg

Wage parity is a good a start as anything.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/gender-pay-gap-widens-for-graduates-20130103-2c718.html
I find it quite depressing that in the 21st century that equal pay for equal work should still be an issue.
 
What do modern feminists in 2013 actually want?
Their cake and eat it too.

The scales have evened up over the last 30 years and most women are confident in the knowledge they control their own destiny. Feminism has been very subdued in recent times but read the SMH and it's alive and well. The paper is a hot bed of women complaining about every little thing. There's no doubt this particular paper has chosen this road.

I'm happy to support worthwhile arguments but when every day there is some petty opinion piece it takes away any sense of being reasonable.
 
aw-gap-620x349.jpg

Wage parity is a good a start as anything.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/gender-pay-gap-widens-for-graduates-20130103-2c718.html
I find it quite depressing that in the 21st century that equal pay for equal work should still be an issue.
No one pays someone more because he's a man.

Someone might pay a person who happens to be a man more because he negotiated better. Or works harder. Or more efficiently. Hell, someone might pay a person who happens to be a woman more because he negotiated better. Or works harder. Or more efficiently. But it's not to do with gender.
 
No one pays someone more because he's a man.

Someone might pay a person who happens to be a man more because he negotiated better. Or works harder. Or more efficiently. Hell, someone might pay a person who happens to be a woman more because he negotiated better. Or works harder. Or more efficiently. But it's not to do with gender.
But graduate pay? Seriously any job the starting wage should be the same for both. Although anecdoatally one thing I have heard is that women are less likely than men to push themselves forward to demand pay rises. Perhaps many have just tolerated the status quo for too long.
 

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No one pays someone more because he's a man.

Someone might pay a person who happens to be a man more because he negotiated better. Or works harder. Or more efficiently. Hell, someone might pay a person who happens to be a woman more because he negotiated better. Or works harder. Or more efficiently. But it's not to do with gender.

Sexist! Sexist!

My company employs graduates, and they all get the same starting salary.

Our competitors do likewise and potentially pay more.

We hire a girl, they hire a guy for 5% more. It's a conspiracy!
 
No one pays someone more because he's a man.

Someone might pay a person who happens to be a man more because he negotiated better. Or works harder. Or more efficiently. Hell, someone might pay a person who happens to be a woman more because he negotiated better. Or works harder. Or more efficiently. But it's not to do with gender.

The article is disingenuous. These grads may be working at different firms in different sectors and as Lenny pointed out may have had different negotiating skills.
 
But graduate pay? Seriously any job the starting wage should be the same for both. Although anecdoatally one thing I have heard is that women are less likely than men to push themselves forward to demand pay rises. Perhaps many have just tolerated the status quo for too long.

It may well be within that firm, but differences occur between firms and between sectors. In health, the government offer pays a lower gross salary but makes that up with a greater ability to offer salary sacrifice.
 
Im okay with Bunsen's OP post.
My points;

1. Maybe the Lez Miz hater isnt into art? Most art-enthusiast women can recognise the merit of a period film, even if it presents the sexism of that time. Mad Men for instance?

2. There are different classes of feminism, infact, they are often described in modern terms as second wave & third wave feminism. Third wave feminism is a bit like Sex & the City, women that have been born and grown in a world post-second wave feminism (also typically affluent, white, hetero and economically well off :rolleyes: ). They can embrace their feminine selves, and reject other parts of traditional womanhood. But they still anguish over the traditional and the modern, how to manage both.

3. TV from about 20 years ago often depicted the different possible paths for women. There was the old traditionalist, a miserable married woman unable to diagnose why she is unhappy, unable to question. The new traditionalist, who makes the choice between work or stay-at-home mum/wife (popular in the 80's). Then there were the more criticised (but arguably more feminist) single woman & career woman. These second two were often depicted more negatively, seen by viewers more negatively, and seen as unable to be 'mature females' due to being single or focusing on a career. That was only 20 years ago.

The fact is, a career and being a mum is still ingrained into women from an early age. Women are also often the centre of the household, the family and house revolve around them, they are the emotional centre.

Feminism is often a 'dirty' word that many people (including women) talk down as ugly, or fail to understand exactly what it means. Feminism, as an ideology, is still imperfect, but the fact is it has gone a long way towards achieving equal rights. Feminism has also been crucial in historical studies and cultural studies, a much-needed alternate viewpoint in academic discourse. Most importantly, every woman is different, and has a different background. Not every woman likes feminism, or is entirely comfortable with the increased number of choices available to them nowadays, for some there is a sense of nostalgia for the old days. Feminism initially also failed to include certain races, lesbians, male-to-female transsexuals, etc. It's an evolving concept, that today has many levels. It's such an ill-defined thing in the mainstream that anyone on the street will say something different to the next person. However, feminism, despite strong anti-feminism sentiment early on, and again throughout the media in the 80's and 90's, had changed the world, in more ways than womens rights. It has really enriched human history.

Feminism has ultimately become about having choices, as opposed to earlier eras. The notion of 'being a woman' is much more diverse than it once was, they are more empowered in that they can choose.
 
Well, I guess in recent decades there was the cultural assumption that woman should focus more on raising children than their career. Plus the 'myth of women' as delicate. Still lingering maybe.
 
I will say one thing, why hasn't the Les Miserables hater had a go at the musical before? It's 20+ years old, or for that matter the novel by Victor Hugo. I always find that people always have a go when a controversial stories format is a movie, never the original book or play etc.
 
Could be worse, imagine waking up everyday with the sole intention of looking to get offended. :rolleyes:
I'm not offended man, I would suggest BB is far more offended than I. I was merely pointing out that having hit the genetic jackpot, I don't really think there is a lot to complain about.
 
I will say one thing, why hasn't the Les Miserables hater had a go at the musical before? It's 20+ years old, or for that matter the novel by Victor Hugo. I always find that people always have a go when a controversial stories format is a movie, never the original book or play etc.

Like I said, she probably isnt an arty person.

For instance, the Niroki trilogy from Yasujiro Ozu should be seen as feminist, with it's rebellious central female character. However, from the viewpoint of a modern woman unable to put things into perspective, she might see it as rigidly sexist (post-war Japan). It's all relative, and less art-educated people are more likely to pick things at random to justify why they hate a film, without understanding the sociology and semiology present within a text.

She probably just hated the film in general and used feminism as a justification she is familiar with. But sexism is such a minor issue among the issues of Les Miserables. Did she see the slaves?
 
I'm not offended man, I would suggest BB is far more offended than I. I was merely pointing out that having hit the genetic jackpot, I don't really think there is a lot to complain about.
I thought he was referring to me, but anyway, we all agree that being male, middle class, and white is easy street. We should move on with the topic at hand.
 
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