Fraser for Pie captaincy, says Swan

[MarkT]

Id argue that Fraser does this too.

Ok now you are stretching. When has Fraser put his head over the ball like Burns? Who was it that shirtfronted Brown? Burns may be half the size of Fraser but there is a universe between them in terms of putting their body on the line and leading from the front in that sort of way.

Funny how a poor year with injury seems to make people quickly forget about a players value.

I have NEVER rated Josh as a ruckman. I posted as much during 2006 when you think he was good. He was still continually beaten in the ruck. I always said he had talent and in fact that he had unconventional skills but was used in a conventional manner that was never going to get the best out of him. It is MM conservatism at its best and where someone like a Blight stands out. NONE of that makes him a RUCKMAM or a CAPTAIN.

Yet to find a pies supporter who doesn't rate Burns, i too am a big fan of Sir Scott.....but think back a couple of years and Burnsy was struggling big time. He would probably rather just focus on his footy and enjoy his final year or two of footy without all of the off-field stuff that comes with being captain of Collingwood.

And Fraser would handle all this? He resigned from the leadership group during the season for similar reasons. Who could carry the “burden” better? Burns already did a lot of the media work last year anyway. If Fraser was any sort of leader he would lighten Burns load if Burns is made captain so the whole point should be moot.

 

[pongo_3931]

Any one notice that the "Fraser for Pie captaincy, says Swan' article has been taken off the collingwood website?

My spidey senses tell me he wont be playing with us in 08. Did he train yesterday? At the least, I dont think he's in line for the captaincy.

 

[doppleganger]

Ok now you are stretching. When has Fraser put his head over the ball like Burns? Who was it that shirtfronted Brown? Burns may be half the size of Fraser but there is a universe between them in terms of putting their body on the line and leading from the front in that sort of way.

Not saying Fraser is as hard and tough as sir scott.....saying that Fraser also throws himself at the footy, is often at the bottom of packs, wins clearances etc.

Fraser does plenty of grunt work

I have NEVER rated Josh as a ruckman. I posted as much during 2006 when you think he was good. He was still continually beaten in the ruck. I always said he had talent and in fact that he had unconventional skills but was used in a conventional manner that was never going to get the best out of him. It is MM conservatism at its best and where someone like a Blight stands out. NONE of that makes him a RUCKMAM or a CAPTAIN.

I know you have never rated him as a ruck.

And Fraser would handle all this? He resigned from the leadership group during the season for similar reasons. Who could carry the “burden” better? Burns already did a lot of the media work last year anyway. If Fraser was any sort of leader he would lighten Burns load if Burns is made captain so the whole point should be moot.

He resigned because he was injured and could hardly play.
Burns resigned because he thought it would be better to get some new faces in the leadership group.

Id be happy with Burns being captain, but id prefer a bloke who could be the face of the club for the next 5 years.....unfort Burns isn't that option.

 

[luvlicca]

I seen it still there this morning, and people have said he was at training, and then I heard on SEN he had signed a 3 year deal....

But as for Fraser being captain, I kinda have to agree with MarkT, he just isnt who I would want as the team captain seeing as he has handed his leadership group role back not once, but twice!!!!! That doesnt strike me as "I want to be a leader"!!!!!!!!

As for Scotty Burns, god love the man!!! BUt I honestly think that he would be reluctant to take it - for the simple fact that he will probably retire at the end of next season and then the club would have to go thru all of this again. I dont think that Mick and the selection group, would go for that - they will want someone who can lead for years to come I think - at least thats how I look at it - my opinion only!!!

As I have said in god knows how many posts, I want Nick Maxwell to be our captain!! He is only 24 - he already has shown so much in regards to a leadership role and I think he would handle the pressures of being Captain very well. This is only my opinion, but I stand by it!! I think Nick would prove to be a fantastic leader for us going forward in the years to come!!!!!

 

[Thommo 42]

Personally, I thougt Fraser running down Bary in this years elimination final was a good example of why he should be captain. It kickstarted our finals campaign and demoralised the Swans.

All from a bloke with a herniated disc in his spine.

 

[MarkT]

Id be happy with Burns being captain, but id prefer a bloke who could be the face of the club for the next 5 years.....unfort Burns isn't that option.

I don’t get this. If Burns is only captain for one year it does nothing but heighten the esteem of the role to have such a club great as skipper. Scott Burns exudes the best of old time Collingwoodness.

This whole 5 year or whatever reign thing has no meaning IMO. Right now all the alternative candidates are very likely to be better first year captains next year than this year because they are still young in captaincy terms. Buckley was too young when he took over. Brown succeeded Shaw after a premiership and being a competition top liner for some time. I rate Heath as a prospective captain but it is too early. I reckon Travis could lead from the front but again it is too early. Maxwell is perhaps at the beginning of the age that is ready. As I have said, I rate his leadership potential. In fact I rate him as the second best one year option at he club. I just don’t rate his football ability high enough to be a long term captain.

 

[Thommo 42]

Buckley was 27 when he became captain, thats too young?

 

[Big Bucks]

Buckley was 27 when he became captain, thats too young?

What is wrong with you people.
Buckley is Buckley.
Maxwell is a great leader but not in our top 15 players as a footballer.
Fraser is a talented footballer but is no captain nor is he a ruckman.

Scott Burns is the epitomy of a Collingwood footballer,
Courage,talented,willing,gives his all.
and takes NO PRISONERS.
Get with it Collingwood,except mediocrity and that is all we will get.
Second best,all too familiar tale in our lack of success in the last 50 years.

Most popular club! who gives a shit, i want to be the most successful on the field,and that means PREMIERSHIPS.

 

[luvlicca]

Maxwell is a fantastic leader and I'll ask the question again - to be captain why do you have to be in the best players week in week out??
If you are - it doesnt make you a better captain does it?? It just makes you great player, an individual so to speak.

Maxwell may not ever be a player like Bucks, or Fraser when he is on but he still gives his all, attacks from the front and never leaves anything to chance. He goes hard in all contests and ok he might not win them all, but he still goes continually and I think that shows a huge leadership quality and I think he would make a great Captain for this club, whether he gets it is another thing - as I have said before, the club will choose someone they see fit and there will be nothing we can do about it.

Scott Burns would be an outstanding Captain no doubt, but I think he is too old to be!! If he only plays one more season, then the club would have to go thru this all over again, which is something I doubt they would wanna do. Burnsy will see be a leader - spiritual as someone put it, and that hasn't changed for years. I have always seen him as one, I think he knows that too! Had the great man not been around - I would say that Burnsy would have been captain a long time ago, but now is not the time. Our team is moving forward with our youngsters and Burnsy is there to share and pass on experience and that is going to be a huge thing for the kids coming up now!! And I think he would get just as much of a kick out of that!!!

Again its only my opinion so no one has to agree!!!

 

[didaka]

What is wrong with you people.
Buckley is Buckley.
Maxwell is a great leader but not in our top 15 players as a footballer.
Fraser is a talented footballer but is no captain nor is he a ruckman.

Scott Burns is the epitomy of a Collingwood footballer,
Courage,talented,willing,gives his all.
and takes NO PRISONERS.
Get with it Collingwood,except mediocrity and that is all we will get.
Second best,all too familiar tale in our lack of success in the last 50 years.

Most popular club! who gives a shit, i want to be the most successful on the field,and that means PREMIERSHIPS.

Scott Burns doesn't need the title of captain. It isn't going to change Scott as a person nor leader. He is already looked up to, and like I said it is just a matter of title if you give it to Burnsy.

I think the football club would benefit by giving it to a player who may thrive on the added responsibility. Fraser is that man. It could make him as a footballer. He is around that age group now where he is one of the more experienced blokes on the list, and it is time to challenge him. Re-invent him to a degree.

 

[MarkT]

Buckley was 27 when he became captain, thats too young?

My mistake. I thought he was a fair bit younger. 27 is not too young. Buckley was not ready though. He grew into the role and once again proved to be the consummate professional.

 

[MarkT]

What is wrong with you people.
Buckley is Buckley.
Maxwell is a great leader but not in our top 15 players as a footballer.
Fraser is a talented footballer but is no captain nor is he a ruckman.

Scott Burns is the epitomy of a Collingwood footballer,
Courage,talented,willing,gives his all.
and takes NO PRISONERS.
Get with it Collingwood,except mediocrity and that is all we will get.
Second best,all too familiar tale in our lack of success in the last 50 years.

Most popular club! who gives a shit, i want to be the most successful on the field,and that means PREMIERSHIPS.

Thank you. Agree 100% with every word.

 

[doppleganger]

I don’t get this. If Burns is only captain for one year it does nothing but heighten the esteem of the role to have such a club great as skipper. Scott Burns exudes the best of old time Collingwoodness.

How does changing your captian every year heighten the esteem?

Unfortunately Burns is past his prime as a player, when he was at his prime he wasn't captain, and he stepped down to let blokes like Fraser and B.Johnson assume more public leadership positions within the club.

Collingwoodness?? Is that the thing you go on about when you talk about settling for close losses??

This whole 5 year or whatever reign thing has no meaning IMO.

I want a captain who will be able to take over and try and lead our new group of players at a sustained tilt at a flag over the next 5 or so years....unfortunately Burns aint that man.

 

[doppleganger]

Get with it Collingwood,except mediocrity and that is all we will get.
Second best,all too familiar tale in our lack of success in the last 50 years.

This may come across as harsh, but Burns was a member of the Buckley, Clement, Rocca, Licuria etc era.........he was never appointed captain then when in his prime......appointing him now when he is playing out his twilight years - doesn't that sort of symbolise second best???

And im not having a go at Burns as he has been a Collingwood great, just dont see how appointing Burns as captain is a pro-active move going forward.

i want to be the most successful on the field,and that means PREMIERSHIPS.

That is what all on this board want!

 

[MarkT]

How does changing your captian every year heighten the esteem?

It doesn’t. How does making 1 bloke captain for the last year or two of a distinguished career played in a definitively “Collingwood” fashion constitute changing captain every year. We have had 3 captains since the late 80s. Burns adds to the esteem because of who he is and how he has played his career.

Unfortunately Burns is past his prime as a player, when he was at his prime he wasn't captain, and he stepped down to let blokes like Fraser and B.Johnson assume more public leadership positions within the club.

Just more evidence as the quality of the man but circumstances are different right now. We no longer have Buckley or Clement. That is a few year of what would have been assumed leadership and a massive chunk of our top end leadership gone. Fraser and Johnson assuming leadership roles while Buckley and Clement are around and leading is massively different to them being the leaders themselves. Apart from that both had ordinary years last year and have had injury concerns. Scott Burns may be near the end but he was better than both last year.

Collingwoodness?? Is that the thing you go on about when you talk about settling for close losses??

It’s a made up term. While it is one to be proud of overall, there are good and bad things about our club – surely you understand that? What I am referring to here is more than100 years old and originates in the poorest of suburbs and fights against the odds. Scott Burns could have played in any era of our history and he would have been respected by his team mates and would have been someone they would have followed as a leader.

What I have referred to eradicating is the sort of thing that happens when working class makes good, gets complacent and losing the fire in the belly. That’s more our last few decades. Of course these are loose analogies but can you see where I am coming from?

I want a captain who will be able to take over and try and lead our new group of players at a sustained tilt at a flag over the next 5 or so years....unfortunately Burns aint that man.

But that criteria will always rule out some quality. More to the point, I want to win the 2008 premiership and the best man to lead that charge is Scott Burns IMO and by a very clear margin.

 

[doppleganger]

It doesn’t. How does making 1 bloke captain for the last year or two of a distinguished career played in a definitively “Collingwood” fashion constitute changing captain every year.

I guess it doesn't, but it is a bandaid type of a solution IMO.

When Burns moves on we will have the same situation, will Heater, Pendles, T.Cloke etc be ready? Is Fraser the man to lead us? Is Maxwell a good enough player?

Just more evidence as the quality of the man but circumstances are different right now.

Yes Burns is a quality Collingwood man, would be a great captain, but it is now time for the younger group of players to take over the club IMO, whether that be Maxwell, H.Shaw, Fraser, Johnson etc.

We no longer have Buckley or Clement. That is a few year of what would have been assumed leadership and a massive chunk of our top end leadership gone.

Transition period, Burns will be around which is great but new blokes need to become the face of the club.

Fraser and Johnson assuming leadership roles while Buckley and Clement are around and leading is massively different to them being the leaders themselves. Apart from that both had ordinary years last year and have had injury concerns.

That is a clear sign to me that Fraser and Johnson are seen by the playing group/coaching staff as our next leaders.....Buckley and Clement gone, now it is time for them to assume the roles.

Scott Burns may be near the end but he was better than both last year.

That is because of injury, a couple of years ago Burns was struggling, and we saw how our champions Buckley, Clement, Licca all struggled with injury in 07.

It’s a made up term. While it is one to be proud of overall, there are good and bad things about our club – surely you understand that? What I am referring to here is more than100 years old and originates in the poorest of suburbs and fights against the odds. Scott Burns could have played in any era of our history and he would have been respected by his team mates and would have been someone they would have followed as a leader.

Get what ur saying, agree that Burns would sum up Collingwoodness.....but i reckon that Johnson and Fraser do also.

More to the point, I want to win the 2008 premiership and the best man to lead that charge is Scott Burns IMO and by a very clear margin.

Hope Burns wins a premiership, would be a great way to go out...not sure he is the man to lead the charge tho.....it was him and Bucks leading the charge in 02-03, now it is the young blokes from 02-03 time to push for the flag.

 

[MarkT]

I guess it doesn't, but it is a bandaid type of a solution IMO.

I don’t see it like that, mainly because Burns could well have been captain for any of the last 5 years or so. In this instance it is a bit of a stop gap and a handy one given the age of the majority of the future leaders. If we do need a bandaid to cover wounds of previous poor drafting then so be it. Bandaids aren’t much good as a replacement to stiches but they are good for cuts that will heal quickly.

When Burns moves on we will have the same situation, will Heater, Pendles, T.Cloke etc be ready? Is Fraser the man to lead us? Is Maxwell a good enough player?

They will all be at least 1 year older and hopefully having been through one more finals campaign. Who knows they may also be premiership players. Regardless they will have answered some more questions one way or another. Maxwell may have proven his lace in the 18. Fraser may have proven he is a quality ruckman and lead from the front. Heath Shaw may have proven to be a flash in the pan. Cloke might do his knee. One way or another we will be better placed to make decisions on young leaders in a year or two.

Yes Burns is a quality Collingwood man, would be a great captain, but it is now time for the younger group of players to take over the club IMO, whether that be Maxwell, H.Shaw, Fraser, Johnson etc.

IMO it is time for that younger group to follow a Burns into battle and try and win a flag before taking over completely. IMNO that is the balance between the now and the later re our leadership.

Get what ur saying, agree that Burns would sum up Collingwoodness.....but i reckon that Johnson and Fraser do also.

Johnson to an extent but not Fraser IMO. As I have said, and I know it is not politically correct but Ben Johnson getting into fights to defend Collingwood and Chris Tarrant since the 2003 loss is good enough for me. Millane, Tony Shaw, Tuddy and a host or premiership processors would shake his hand. Reckon Tuddy would break 3 of Josh’s fingers shaking his hand. Problem with Ben is he hasn’t been consistent enough to date and he doesn’t speak well – or want to speak.

Scott Burns is respected by everyone in the football world. Ben and Josh are not.

 

[doppleganger]

Reckon Tuddy would break 3 of Josh’s fingers shaking his hand. Problem with Ben is he hasn’t been consistent enough to date and he doesn’t speak well – or want to speak.

Wonder how strong the relationship was between Thomo and Fraser?

I understand where ur coming from, if they decide to give it to Burns it would be fantastic.

Just isn't the way I would like the club to go, but that is fine.

Scott Burns is respected by everyone in the football world. Ben and Josh are not.

Agree with you on this, perhaps enough reason alone to give it to Burns.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I guess it doesn't, but it is a bandaid type of a solution IMO.

When Burns moves on we will have the same situation, will Heater, Pendles, T.Cloke etc be ready? Is Fraser the man to lead us? Is Maxwell a good enough player?

We'll be in a MUCH better position to decide those things in 12 months time.

Burns is the ideal candidate to hold the fort for a year (or two, dont write off Sir Scotty fronting up in 2009) while the younger guys mature for another season (or two).

 

[Thommo 42]

But was Buckley respected by everyone in the football world when he actually became captain?

Or was he just a more talented version of Fraser? In that he divided opinion back then like Fraser does now.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

But was Buckley respected by everyone in the football world when he actually became captain?

Absolutely he was respected. He was one of the best in the game when he was made captain.

Dont confuse popularity with respect.

 

[Rockster]

lets get fraser to sign that bloody contract , then worry about making him captain

 

[doppleganger]

We'll be in a MUCH better position to decide those things in 12 months time.

I dont think we will be.

We already have seen that the kids, H.Shaw, Pendles, T.Cloke are quality footballers......that wont change in 12 months. They will all still be young so questions will be raised as to whether they are ready to lead. They have all already shown they are vital players.

If they are showing leadership qualities now, give em the job.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I dont think we will be.

We already have seen that the kids, H.Shaw, Pendles, T.Cloke are quality footballers......that wont change in 12 months. They will all still be young so questions will be raised as to whether they are ready to lead. They have all already shown they are vital players.

If they are showing leadership qualities now, give em the job.

We're going to go around in circles on this but my opinion is....

They are all showing leadership qualities. I am more than happy to turn 2008 into a shoot-out for the best candidates to show their stuff, so we can select the absolute best candidate for the long term.

I cannot see any reason why Burns being captain for a year would be a backward step or a band-aid solution. Its not ideal but its not going to undermine the fabric of the club to have a person of his calibre lead the club for just a year.

 

[doppleganger]

I cannot see any reason why Burns being captain for a year would be a backward step or a band-aid solution. Its not ideal but its not going to undermine the fabric of the club to have a person of his calibre lead the club for just a year.

Burns being captain would be great, as MarkT said he is prob the only player on our list who has the respect of the entire football world atm. Others still have to earn it IMO. So if they gave it to Burns for a year fantastic.

But i think that with the big retirements this year, it is time for the new breed to step up and take control of the club.