Full contact AFL 9s, 'Origin'.

[Covertackle]

here in NSW (and maybe Qld), we play a fun form of kick-to-kick call force 'em backs or forwards'n'backs, where two teams line up facing each other (like a kick to kick), but you are trying to force the other mob back by kicking longer than them, etc
anyway, I took a footy to work one day (two footies in fact, a sherrin and an ancient kookaburra) and invited some blokes to a kick-to-kick, most of them couldn't kick a footy, but never mind about that, anyway, we ended up on a kid's soccer ground, and I noticed the goals were only about 70m apart, and I had a thought, let's play force 'em backs using the soccer goals, and to make it interesting, we had 2 footies going at once, meaning you could get onto a torp that might duck under the crossbar while people were focusing on the other footy, it was great fun, final score 2-1

haha! You blokes dont work hard enough!

 

[footyninescom]

I hope this is the phantom 'main forum' i was told to post it in.


to the topic..............

Concept;

Soccer is the biggest danger to AFL national supremacy. It begins with the struggle for Juniors. Summer is now soccers free ride for TV exposure as it doesnt have another footy code to contend with.

Also, there are many Rugby and Soccer fields unused in the Summer.

AFL now has a foothold in most Asian countries due to expats running Auskick sessions for local kids. Do a google on AFL asia. Nearly every country is represented with Indonesia the closest.

These Asian countries have a lack of AFL size fields. They do however have Soccer fields that could be used with an AFL adapted 9's format with full rules. (put goal posts on dead ball lines thereby increasing field size to 120m).

The smaller field would require a modified ball that can be kicked flat and fast over short distances, but not long distances due to the smaller field. The ball should act something like a shuttlecock.

The format could be 4 quarters of 15 mins each. 9 players per team with 4 players on the bench for interchange. The game would be fast and suit smaller players but big guys can compete.

*The concept is to make AFL suitable for rugby and soccer fields.
*Introduce AFL to summer time (night games)
*Combat Soccer's TV summer monopoly.
*Give AFL 9's 'no contact touch footy' a higher profile as a summer sport round the country.

To get TV interest the National showpiece should be a full contact State of Origin format of 8 teams.

Viv Metro
Vic country
NSW/ACT
QLD
NT
WA
SA
TAS

14 rounds plus 1 final. Top 2 teams play off for the GF.

Its unlikely contracted AFL players would nominate for the game. So it would give talented Juniors and NEAFL players some exposure.


The night time format would combat the heat somewhat. Touch RL is played at night with an extremely low mortality rate....lol

AFL players play in 28 deg pretty frequently. Not many nights are that hot, and with no direct sunlight makes it even more comfortable. I dont see heat as an issue.

The Origin concept and the exciting young players make it attractive. Also it legitimizes the use of Rugby and soccer fields for the space starved Asian, European and North, and South Americas whos fields are mostly Rugby sized. Its an introduction to AFL that utilizes the facilities available in other countries. Down the track a World FC (full contact) series could be an annual event. An Asian conference could run concurrently with ours or when Soccer season over there is ended and AFL can use the fields.

The ball may be an issue, but all the money Sherrin makes it wouldn't hurt them to do some product development.

Players should be restricted to one or two bounces.

Thoughts?

Mate check out www.footynines.com. Its already happening. In 2009 a group from Perth saw the trend in international sports towards high scoring and entertaining short format concepts (Twenty20, rugby 7s etc) and patented the concept. In response the AFL rebranded their 8 a side AFL recreation football to AFL 9s (even though their AFL 9s indoor comps are still played with 8 players and there is no elements in the game to justify the nine in their name).
The short format is ideal for the warmer summer months to fill in the void over the traditional offseason. Australian football is the most popular sport in the country and people dont stop liking football just because the weather changes. There is certainly a niche market waiting to be capitalised upon.
The short format also means that it is attractive to recently retired AFL players. Would you watch (just throwing these names out there) Fevola, Hall, Black... etc. Play in a state of origin truly national competition under lights on a warm summers evening?
WAFL clubs are already onto it and despite the AFLs attempts to stop it its about to go large. Footy Nines, the future of football.

 

[The_Wookie]

Mate check out www.footynines.com. Its already happening. In 2009 a group from Perth saw the trend in international sports towards high scoring and entertaining short format concepts (Twenty20, rugby 7s etc) and patented the concept. In response the AFL rebranded their 8 a side AFL recreation football to AFL 9s (even though their AFL 9s indoor comps are still played with 8 players and there is no elements in the game to justify the nine in their name).
The short format is ideal for the warmer summer months to fill in the void over the traditional offseason. Australian football is the most popular sport in the country and people dont stop liking football just because the weather changes. There is certainly a niche market waiting to be capitalised upon.
The short format also means that it is attractive to recently retired AFL players. Would you watch (just throwing these names out there) Fevola, Hall, Black... etc. Play in a state of origin truly national competition under lights on a warm summers evening?
WAFL clubs are already onto it and despite the AFLs attempts to stop it its about to go large. Footy Nines, the future of football.

I can find AFL reporting figures for 9-a-side competitions (not AFL 9s, not 8-a-side, not recfooty) going back to the 1993 Annual Report when they said there was 3,792 players of that variety nation wide. Tell me more about how you guys patented this version.

 

[footyninescom]

I can find AFL reporting figures for 9-a-side competitions (not AFL 9s, not 8-a-side, not recfooty) going back to the 1993 Annual Report when they said there was 3,792 players of that variety nation wide. Tell me more about how you guys patented this version.

Go onto the patent aust website and look up nine per side australian football. We are well aware that we are not the first group to play nine a side football but as the patent office found no one was playing it with full contact rules on an oval our size without zones and with nine point supergoals as well as a few other differences. As im sure youre aware you can have elements that already exist separately but if they are arranged in a unique way then the concept is deemed unique and therefore able to be patented.
Would you please be able to show me where you got that info from so I can take a look. I was pretty sure that AFL 9s was the rebranding of the 8 players per team recreation football. At least thats what the official launch documents of AFL 9s says.
While you were researching this did you also manage to find out the dates that the AFL registered the AFL 9s brand?Youll find its about a year after our Footy Nines brand was registered and about 10 months after they told us that they would support our concept and that we would operate under their umbrella as an affiliate in the same manner as masters football. Instead they decided to rebrand rec foootball to AFL 9's a game with more in common with netball then football. Why did they need to rebrand it to AFL 9s when their indoor comps are still played with 8 players and there is no other elements that justify the nine in their new name. Ie. We have 9 players, 9minute quarters, 9 point supergoals what elements in their game justifies the 9 in their name?

 

[The_Wookie]

Go onto the patent aust website and look up nine per side australian football. We are well aware that we are not the first group to play nine a side football but as the patent office found no one was playing it with full contact rules on an oval our size without zones and with nine point supergoals as well as a few other differences. As im sure youre aware you can have elements that already exist separately but if they are arranged in a unique way then the concept is deemed unique and therefore able to be patented.
Would you please be able to show me where you got that info from so I can take a look. I was pretty sure that AFL 9s was the rebranding of the 8 players per team recreation football. At least thats what the official launch documents of AFL 9s says.
While you were researching this did you also manage to find out the dates that the AFL registered the AFL 9s brand?Youll find its about a year after our Footy Nines brand was registered and about 10 months after they told us that they would support our concept and that we would operate under their umbrella as an affiliate in the same manner as masters football. Instead they decided to rebrand rec foootball to AFL 9's a game with more in common with netball then football. Why did they need to rebrand it to AFL 9s when their indoor comps are still played with 8 players and there is no other elements that justify the nine in their new name. Ie. We have 9 players, 9minute quarters, 9 point supergoals what elements in their game justifies the 9 in their name?

AFL Annual Reports from 1993 to 1998 list 9 a side participation.

Its not listed separately after 1998. Recfooty starts gets reported from 2004. The AFL first mentions AFL 9's in the 2011 Annual Report - screenshot belo

 

[footyninescom]

AFL Annual Reports from 1993 to 1998 list 9 a side participation.

Its not listed separately after 1998. Recfooty starts gets reported from 2004. The AFL first mentions AFL 9's in the 2011 Annual Report - screenshot belo

Thanks for that info Wookie.
As I said, we are well aware that we are not the first group to play 9 a side Australian football and have never claimed that. I guess what we are doing draws some parallels to the UFC. They didnt invent mixed martial arts as its been around for millennia but they did change the shape/size of the playing field and added their own rules to create their own version/brand of the sport. Steve Jobs didnt invent the mp3 player he just marketed it in a commercially attractive package. Thats what we are doing offering a high scoring, aesthetically pleasing and entertaining version of the sport of Australian football ideal to fill in the football void over the offseason. Not looking to change anything that exists over the traditional season.

Once again you are correct with your info that AFL 9s was branded in 2011 (end of July/august). I have a hard copy document titled WAFC Detailed AFL 9s Program Overview which states "rebranding of the 8 a side AFL recreation football".
All of our intellectual property was registered In 2010 including our Nine Per Side Australian Football patent (#2010905037).
Have you ever wondered why all of the other shortened formats of other sports (Twenty20 cricket, rugby 7s, NRL 9s, Hockey 9s, netball fast 5s... etc) emphasise the exciting fan favourite elements where AFL 9s has eliminated the exciting aspects (no contact so no marking contests allowed therefore no spectacular marks are allowed. Not allowed to get a hard ball in the guts, give the dont argue, break two tackles and bang one from fifty, cant smother, spoil, bump or tackle). Maybe AFL 9s has more in common with netball because making their version too much like ours may have legal implications.

You seem well connected, can you please get an answer as to why they call their game nines when its still played with 8 players (indoors) and theres no other elements in their game to justify the 9 in their name? We haven't been given an answer to that one yet?

 

[The_Wookie]

Thanks for that info Wookie.
As I said, we are well aware that we are not the first group to play 9 a side Australian football and have never claimed that. I guess what we are doing draws some parallels to the UFC. They didnt invent mixed martial arts as its been around for millennia but they did change the shape/size of the playing field and added their own rules to create their own version/brand of the sport. Steve Jobs didnt invent the mp3 player he just marketed it in a commercially attractive package. Thats what we are doing offering a high scoring, aesthetically pleasing and entertaining version of the sport of Australian football ideal to fill in the football void over the offseason. Not looking to change anything that exists over the traditional season.

Once again you are correct with your info that AFL 9s was branded in 2011 (end of July/august). I have a hard copy document titled WAFC Detailed AFL 9s Program Overview which states "rebranding of the 8 a side AFL recreation football".
All of our intellectual property was registered In 2010 including our Nine Per Side Australian Football patent (#2010905037).
Have you ever wondered why all of the other shortened formats of other sports (Twenty20 cricket, rugby 7s, NRL 9s, Hockey 9s, netball fast 5s... etc) emphasise the exciting fan favourite elements where AFL 9s has eliminated the exciting aspects (no contact so no marking contests allowed therefore no spectacular marks are allowed. Not allowed to get a hard ball in the guts, give the dont argue, break two tackles and bang one from fifty, cant smother, spoil, bump or tackle). Maybe AFL 9s has more in common with netball because making their version too much like ours may have legal implications.

You seem well connected, can you please get an answer as to why they call their game nines when its still played with 8 players (indoors) and theres no other elements in their game to justify the 9 in their name? We haven't been given an answer to that one yet?

Im not well connected at all. I just have a massive number of AFL documents like annual reports, thats all. (you can find them in the resource thread at the top of the industry page)

However its worth noting that the AFL website for the Cadbury AFL 9's says the following:

• Its an outdoor competition. Note that Recfooty as an 8 a side competition wasnt strictly limited to indoor competitions either according to this AFLs modified games document which makes no mention of indoor/outdoor status.
  

  "Cadbury AFL 9s is a social, touch only version of AFL football. It is played outdoors on a rectangular field and requires the usual AFL skills, minus the tackling. You can kick goals, lay off a quick handball and take a diving mark."

• It has 9 players per side.
  

  "AFL 9s has 9 players on the field per team, with unlimited interchange players."

• Its played on a rectangular field- note as well that footy has been played on rectangles outside of Australia, particularly in Europe and the USA since the late 90s.
  

  "An AFL 9s field is rectangular in size"

• oddly enough, in mixed competition, a goal by a female forward is worth 9 points. go figure.
  

  "In mixed competitions, a goal scored by the female forward is worth 9 points"

• The also allow for the free kick in from any out of bounds, unless the responsible party cant be determined.
  

  "When the ball goes out of bounds (ball completely over the line) by hand or foot, the nearest opponent shall kick the ball back into play."

its almost like you never even looked at the website - AFL9's FAQS

AFL9s is designed to encouraged mixed play, and probably aimed at trying to get the kind of numbers in the future that turn up for touch footy. It should be noted that some US metro leagues play a similar style but full contact (at least in the Chicago and Austin districts). Its entirely possible that the league said to themselves "you know what we already have a full contact version of the sport that has more than 300,000 club players, perhaps we should go for some variety to attract new blood."

 

[footyninescom]

Im not well connected at all. I just have a massive number of AFL documents like annual reports, thats all. (you can find them in the resource thread at the top of the industry page)

However its worth noting that the AFL website for the Cadbury AFL 9's says the following:

• Its an outdoor competition. Note that Recfooty as an 8 a side competition wasnt strictly limited to indoor competitions either according to this AFLs modified games document which makes no mention of indoor/outdoor status.
• It has 9 players per side.
• Its played on a rectangular field- note as well that footy has been played on rectangles outside of Australia, particularly in Europe and the USA since the late 90s.
• oddly enough, in mixed competition, a goal by a female forward is worth 9 points. go figure.
• The also allow for the free kick in from any out of bounds, unless the responsible party cant be determined.

its almost like you never even looked at the website - AFL9's FAQS


AFL9s is designed to encouraged mixed play, and probably aimed at trying to get the kind of numbers in the future that turn up for touch footy. It should be noted that some US metro leagues play a similar style but full contact (at least in the Chicago and Austin districts). Its entirely possible that the league said to themselves "you know what we already have a full contact version of the sport that has more than 300,000 club players, perhaps we should go for some variety to attract new blood."

• Over here (5 mins from my house and seen it with my own eyes, mates play in it) they play 8 a side indoor footy under the AFL 9s banner. In front of me I have a document titled AFL 9s Indoor Playing Rules which states on the first page " the game is played between 2 teams of 8 players and one substitute "
• We play on both rectangle and oval grounds as its the dimensions of 130m x 70m with no positional zone that is the difference between other versions. Most other versions play on grounds that are around 100m long and therefore zones are needed otherwise guys will just be banging goals from their own backline and it turns into a glorified game of kick to kick as we found out during our trials of various ground sizes and player numbers.
• Yep the AFL are awarding extra value for goals based entirely on gender? ?Isn't this blatant sexual discrimination? Ive seen some pretty good female players who are better than a lot of guys.
• I have read the AFL 9's FAQS but dont understand what your getting at. The AFL only combined those elements when they released AFL 9s in 2011 ( 10 months after they met with us to discuss our concept ). To the best of our knowledge and that of the Australian patent office who granted the patent, the elements did exist separately but were never combined together in the one concept. The version that the AFL brought out in 2011 was different enough from ours to not violate the patent but if the AFL were to make AFL 9s full contact, on a bigger oval with no zones and 9 point goals awarded for kicking from a specified distance as opposed to being gender based then our advice is that they may be in violation.
• You're right AFL 9s is designed to encourage mixed play and as it says in the document WAFC Detailed AFL 9s Program Overview which states "grow participation rates among those communities and demographics that are presently underrepresented." It is essentially an introductory kidi-safe version of australian football while ours is more like real footy and aimed more at current players. We believe that each version has a different target audience and therefore could co exist and thought that that would be the case until the AFL brought out a game with virtually the same name. Why did they need to change it from rec footy to 9s again?
• Right again they attract new blood because NEW cleanskin (not previously registered) players pad their participation stats and I'm not sure about this but do the AFL get more govt funding the higher their participation numbers?

 

[The_Wookie]

• Over here (5 mins from my house and seen it with my own eyes, mates play in it) they play 8 a side indoor footy under the AFL 9s banner. In front of me I have a document titled AFL 9s Indoor Playing Rules which states on the first page " the game is played between 2 teams of 8 players and one substitute "
• We play on both rectangle and oval grounds as its the dimensions of 130m x 70m with no positional zone that is the difference between other versions. Most other versions play on grounds that are around 100m long and therefore zones are needed otherwise guys will just be banging goals from their own backline and it turns into a glorified game of kick to kick as we found out during our trials of various ground sizes and player numbers.
• Yep the AFL are awarding extra value for goals based entirely on gender? ?Isn't this blatant sexual discrimination? Ive seen some pretty good female players who are better than a lot of guys.
• I have read the AFL 9's FAQS but dont understand what your getting at. The AFL only combined those elements when they released AFL 9s in 2011 ( 10 months after they met with us to discuss our concept ). To the best of our knowledge and that of the Australian patent office who granted the patent, the elements did exist separately but were never combined together in the one concept. The version that the AFL brought out in 2011 was different enough from ours to not violate the patent but if the AFL were to make AFL 9s full contact, on a bigger oval with no zones and 9 point goals awarded for kicking from a specified distance as opposed to being gender based then our advice is that they may be in violation.
• You're right AFL 9s is designed to encourage mixed play and as it says in the document WAFC Detailed AFL 9s Program Overview which states "grow participation rates among those communities and demographics that are presently underrepresented." It is essentially an introductory kidi-safe version of australian football while ours is more like real footy and aimed more at current players. We believe that each version has a different target audience and therefore could co exist and thought that that would be the case until the AFL brought out a game with virtually the same name. Why did they need to change it from rec footy to 9s again?
• Right again they attract new blood because NEW cleanskin (not previously registered) players pad their participation stats and I'm not sure about this but do the AFL get more govt funding the higher their participation numbers?

Maybe your local indoor club play 8 a side indoors under the AFL9s banner, and its possible that others dont. For that matter we had 9 a side full contact football when i was playing under 16s with Frankston East (back in 1992) Its also a fact that AFL9s is played worldwide as a 9 a side touch competition and will feature at next years international cup.

AFL9's is a hell of a lot more marketable than AFL Recfooty. Which is probably why Rec footy had 3/10s of bugger all sponsorship, but AFL9s has a nationwide cadbury sponsorship.

Government funding isnt tied to participation. Most Government funding to the AFL is in facility development, and programs specifically targetting welfare based programs. Most AFl programs are covered from AFL sponsors. AFL9s is for instance fully sponsored by Cadbury, Auskick is covered by NAB.

if the AFL introduced a 9 a side contact concept for Australian football - being the world governing body and rulemaker for the sport - i don't give your patent a hope in hell of withstanding an AFL lawsuit if it eventuated. Especially when considering prior art.

 

[footyninescom]

Maybe your local indoor club play 8 a side indoors under the AFL9s banner, and its possible that others dont. For that matter we had 9 a side full contact football when i was playing under 16s with Frankston East (back in 1992) Its also a fact that AFL9s is played worldwide as a 9 a side touch competition and will feature at next years international cup.

AFL9's is a hell of a lot more marketable than AFL Recfooty. Which is probably why Rec footy had 3/10s of bugger all sponsorship, but AFL9s has a nationwide cadbury sponsorship.

Government funding isnt tied to participation. Most Government funding to the AFL is in facility development, and programs specifically targetting welfare based programs. Most AFl programs are covered from AFL sponsors. AFL9s is for instance fully sponsored by Cadbury, Auskick is covered by NAB.

if the AFL introduced a 9 a side contact concept for Australian football - being the world governing body and rulemaker for the sport - i don't give your patent a hope in hell of withstanding an AFL lawsuit if it eventuated. Especially when considering prior art.

Thanks for clearing up the participation / funding question.

It's not just our local club playing 8 a side indoor under the 9s banner there are a few indoor centres over here that do it. Things are obviously a bit different over here. Are they selling AFL 9s sub-licenses (franchise territories) over there or is it just coincidentally over here where we are based?

I'm sure you did play 9 a side full contact back in 1992, hell my uncles played 9 a side in the 70s (as ive maitained WE ARE NOT THE FIRST GROUP TO PLAY 9 A SIDE FOOTBALL) but what im saying is previously there were a lot of seperate 9 a side comps playing under various rules but there was no formalised structure to it. Was it called AFL 9's? Did it even have a formal name? Did it have a formalised set of rules?

AFL 9s IS much more marketable than rec footy its just a big coincidence that they decided to rebrand to AFL 9s a year after our intellectual property was secured and after they told us they would support our concept.

You're right they do play a 9 a side TOUCH version in the international cup. Do any of these comps that you have mentioned play with all of the same rules that we do? You have shown that these elements have existed separately but not in the same concept. Can you find anywhere that they do all exist in the one concept or have in the past? If you can then maybe you should work at the patent office because patents wont get past the first stage unless they are deemed unique. They do extensive research in order to allow patents to pass and I trust that they know what they are doing.

The AFL is allowed to bring out a 9s contact version as long as it has 3 other differences to our patent. So if they keep awarding 9 points for goals being kicked by a female rather then from a distance they'll be right. But they know this because they have a 24/7 all expenses paid legal team. The patent is the least of their worries. Id be more concerned with other elements that I can't mention here.

The AFL are the governing body of their associated and affiliated clubs and leagues. They have as much OWNERSHIP of the game of AUstralian football as mcdonalds does over hamburgers. This is just their version/brand and anyone can bring out their own version/brand. They are the caretakers of the game of Australian football whose objective role as i think it says in their constitution(im sure youll correct me if im wrong) is to support development leagues. Now if our concept has had ex AFL players play it and note the performance benefits, if WAFL ceos and presidents as well as grassroots clubs want to play it because it generates a much needed revenue stream at a time of the year when they are generally financially idle then wouldn't we qualify as a football development league. Wouldnt it be their objective role to support it as they initially told us they would?
The moment they brought out AFL 9s and decided that we would not be a part of their association, by natural selection we are then deemed to be in competition (is a governing body designed to be in competition with a concept that has proven performance and financial benefits to grassroot clubs?) Therefore in the free enterprise market that our society operates under we have every right to continue to operate and thus be recognised as our stand alone breakaway sport. 70 years after William Webb Ellis picked up a soccer ball and came up with rugby a breakaway group decided to play with less players and a few different rules. Rugby league was born and thats done reasonably well. This is not unprecedented. The process has already began.

Look champ theres a lot of stuff that I cant say here that would blow your mind that you wont be able to find in your well documented search engine. Regardless of whether or not anyone has crossed the line of legality and ultimately thats up to the courts of law to decide, all I can say is that how on earth can the AFL judge others on integrity?

 

[The_Wookie]

Im not going to continue a discussion on patent law, and you clearly have an axe to grind with the AFL.

I dont work for AFL HQ, so I cant speak for AFL policy, Im only alluding to what I think the process might be. Why would they support a vehicle, of the could just adapt their own and retain full control over it.

You do have every right to operate as you see fit, and good luck with it. However, that particular discussion should be directed to the WA section of the forum in future.

 

[Grogg]

Soccer is unlikely to be any more of a threat than basketball. All the good players leave and you watch second-graders locally.

I had previously thought up of a six-a-side competition on a soccer pitch dimensions (though still an oval) as a method for pre-season training, which could be expanded into a full-blown competition.

Pretty much the same rules would apply with some minor tweaks, with perhaps 6 on the bench and 10-15 minute quarters. That way it is more about aerobic fitness/fitness training, elite disposal and 1-on-1 contests.

With such a competition the AFL could run it during pre-season training in lieu of the 'night competition', and would be flexible enough to have multiple games per week and mid-week games. Rectangular stadiums would be more accessible as there'd be no cricket wickets to worry about and most/all would have lighting for night games - mitigating issues with heat.

With so few players per match clubs could pick players based on their training regime. It would essentially be simulated match practice for the H&A season. It could be marketed with warm up games either consisting of a women's competition, elite under-aged competition, or "legends/super rules" competition, etc.

With AFLPA support you could have AFL 'branded' matches from January through September (9 months), or even consider matches in December. The length and timing of games would lend themselves well to television, particularly to Foxtel programming.

Somebody at AFL House should be giving you a warm handshake and a very large cheque, utility.

 

[utility]

Somebody at AFL House should be giving you a warm handshake and a very large cheque, utility.

I won't be holding my breath! Would be nice to receive credit for the idea but the AFL is run by lawyers...