Gender Equality Action Plan

[ferball]

Neoliberal capitalism is ostensibly gender-blind - in fact, one of its more insidious aspects is a kind of faux feminism, for example liberals believing that Hilary Clinton being president would be a genuine feminist victory. This sort of shallow identity politics is taken as 'progress', and allows the ruling elite to continue on with their economic agenda - privatisation, "structural adjustment" etc. They are happy to throw a few scraps of 'feminism' to us, and unfortunately many are satisfied with this.

The biggest defeat the left has suffered has been mistaking tokenistic gestures from the ruling class (like a few more women able to be corporate parasites) for real structural change. Identity politics filtered through neoliberalism in our inherently narcissistic social media world are toxic to genuine progressive change. Sadly, many on both the left and the right think that this is what real left politics is.

President Obama is a good example of this.

 

[ferball]

Gender politics itself is the distraction, and both sides of the paradigm are equally guilty of undermining working class politics.

The ruling class are simply beating their tune on your drum.

That's true but only to a point. (Where that point is another debate.)

Its also true, to the same point, of race politics as well. Ultimately its all class politics and Warren Buff It knows who is winning.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

I think that's exactly what he's saying: that identity politics stands in the way of proper structural reform. I agree with him, and with you on that one.

I also agree. The left isn’t what it is supposed to be and it has been going that way for a while now. I would be interested to see a study on the impact of post modernism since the fall of the ussr has had on this increased emphasis on identity politics.

 

[ferball]

we'll see about that...



you just quoted me on why it won't help memberships....




Well for one women on average have a higher IQ....

Secondly, you can't do a study on "lower equality" as it's too problematic, there are far too many variables. As for "less pay for women", yes they do get paid less on average - but that doesn't mean there is inequality, LIKE I SAID BEFORE, uni variant analysis are useless.

You brought that study up. Not me. Somehow the "lower equality" thing supported what you were saying, but now its "problematic"? I used that study to help make the following argument:

• Women in STEM industries face structural discrimination against promotion. This occurs whether the HR staff are male or female and still occurs when there is specific evidence showing the female candidate is superior on merit. - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140623121000.htm

• Women in STEM report similar rates of sexual harassment to the general population of working women but report sexual discrimination at a rate almost 20% higher than the rest of the working female population. - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180109104718.htm

• The shortage of women in STEM positions is not due to issues such as "leaving to have a family" but to Gender Bias. (You didn't even want to read this if I didn't spell it out for you despite expecting me to read the link you provided to support your case. I did btw and found it didn't say what you thought it did. WE'll come to that next.) - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131007151635.htm

• Despite ongoing attempts to create equality in society STEM fields have a lower percentage of female graduates. (You attempted to use this article as proof of North's GEAP being counterproductive ... but in reality all it does is reflect the high levels of sex bias and discrimination in the STEM industries that was documented in the accompanying articles, the ones I've linked above.) - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180214150132.htm

Which is precisely what North's GEAP is there to counteract. (It was a female STEM trained person who appears to have solved Sam Wright's ongoing foot problems. FWIW.)

This is your response to that:

In my quote above i used the example "challenging gender roles" within the north GEAP. The evidence above proves that in more egalitarian societies traditional gender roles are reinforced...

At this point i don't feel i have to elaborate, but you've missed the point again so i'll explain further. STEM fields are male dominated areas, they're the secondary example (from my research) that will be quoted as "inequality", the primary example always being "women on average earn less than men". STEM fields attract the highest pay in society, therefore kills off the "women earn less than men" argument. You may now dive into studies about how a woman being in the same position as a man will earn less, this is debatable depending on the specifics, but more often than not it due to personality traits, women are more agreeable than men and will less frequently request a pay rise. Again there are many reason why, but it also comes in swings and roundabouts, for example women medical doctors will on average earn more than male doctors.

What more is there to explain other than summarise the article - in egalitarian countries, where women feel less economic pressures, women will often choose NOT to enter into STEM fields (a male dominated area) and thus choose more TRADITIONAL FEMALE ROLES. So why challenge gender roles when it only reinforces them....it's a pointless task.



This in no way supports the argument to bring in female employee quota's. A HR manager/department worth their salt should be able to identify these biases. Perhaps hiring more qualified HR personnel and/or even bringing in professors/consultants to address these issues would be a more logical approach? I fail to see how bringing in a quota is going to effectively counteract this.

Of course my primary argument here is that a company that doesn't have a decent HR department will simply die out due to simple economics - if they're not hiring the best person for the job they'll ultimately fail to their competitors that do.

This bit is my favorite:

So women experience 9% more discrimination in a field that is 72% men in comparison to non-STEM fields that is 50% men. Discrimination is bad no matter what the field, but this extract shows proportionally there is less discrimination in STEM fields...

.... (Followed by this - ferbs)

Ok, but i'm not going to read it unless you're going to put in the effort to tell me how this supports whatever argument you're putting forward.

Remember you said this:

no, if i was faced with facts that were contrary to what i thought/said i'd change my mind.



The bullet points above contain links to the facts you've gone out of your way to avoid having to change you mind in response too.

That's good, but the solutions the club has posted to move these in a better direction aren't terribly specific or groundbreaking...

Reasonable comment but we know the problems and those steps are basically the only known responses.

is there a more specific plan that i'm missing here, all i can see is:

As part of our commitment to gender equality, over the next five years we will:

• Challenge traditional gender roles for women and men
• All of Board, players and staff undertake annual training and education
• Ensure flexible working conditions through progressive workplace policies
• Target a minimum of 40% of female representation across the club
• Achieve more than 40% female members across our men’s and women’s teams

Externally (spreading the message using our influence):

• Work closely with 12 junior football clubs in our regions to support the development of their own Gender Equality Action Plans
• Positively impact more than 40,000 families through our commitment to gender equality at our home games.
• Increase the profile of women’s participation consistently to more than 290,000 social media followers

Where are the KPI's? How are they putting these in place? etc etc. And as stated above, some of these are counterproductive/pointless.

You should be talking to the club about this not me. But I don't know what else you expect.

well from those definitions bloody anything could be a meme.

Yeah. Something something words and their actual meanings...

 

[MaddAdam]

A very good example of this derailment of the modern left is what just happened in Syria.

A lot of people, largely but not exclusively, women, I know, otherwise fairly solid lefties, went full neo-con warmonger when presented with images of children who had been gassed.

These are people who ten minutes before were all "They lied to us in Iraq about WMD, you can't believe what they say, we should be spending money on hospitals and schools here, not wasting it on more war in the Middle East, those people have suffered enough as it is and we'd just get trapped in another quagmire in Syria."

Cue some images from rebel activist groups and they were: "We must bomb the monster! We have to save the suffering children of Syria! If you're not onboard with a Tomahawk barrage you're complicit in the gassing of babies!"

It demonstrates just how effective well placed propaganda can be when targeted at the right people. And we know now that modern political operations know exactly what propaganda to serve up to individuals to get the response they want.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

A very good example of this derailment of the modern left is what just happened in Syria.

A lot of people, largely but not exclusively, women, I know, otherwise fairly solid lefties, went full neo-con warmonger when presented with images of children who had been gassed.

These are people who ten minutes before were all "They lied to us in Iraq about WMD, you can't believe what they say, we should be spending money on hospitals and schools here, not wasting it on more war in the Middle East, those people have suffered enough as it is and we'd just get trapped in another quagmire in Syria."

Cue some images from rebel activist groups and they were: "We must bomb the monster! We have to save the suffering children of Syria! If you're not onboard with a Tomahawk barrage you're complicit in the gassing of babies!"

It demonstrates just how effective well placed propaganda can be when targeted at the right people. And we know now that modern political operations know exactly what propaganda to serve up to individuals to get the response they want.

This is why everyone should study how effectively the Nazi’s used propaganda to achieve particular aims and link that to modern day examples. This is one of the ways the people can keep democratic governments and political elites in better check, call them on their bull dust and effectively question the legitimacy or credibility of questionable political and economic decisions and acts.

Just on the Syria Civil War and the recent ‘chemical attack’, it doesn’t make any strategic sense for Assad to gas an isolated area, that was close to surrendering and he’s on the verge of victory in the war. Even the UN cleared him in 2012/3 over another alleged attack. Assad is a grub, don’t get me wrong, but the US and co are using very weak pretexts for further involvement in the country. Assad is the best chance for lasting stability and peace in that country. Did the USA learn nothing from Iraq.

 

[Ischenko]

A very good example of this derailment of the modern left is what just happened in Syria.

A lot of people, largely but not exclusively, women, I know, otherwise fairly solid lefties, went full neo-con warmonger when presented with images of children who had been gassed.

These are people who ten minutes before were all "They lied to us in Iraq about WMD, you can't believe what they say, we should be spending money on hospitals and schools here, not wasting it on more war in the Middle East, those people have suffered enough as it is and we'd just get trapped in another quagmire in Syria."

Cue some images from rebel activist groups and they were: "We must bomb the monster! We have to save the suffering children of Syria! If you're not onboard with a Tomahawk barrage you're complicit in the gassing of babies!"

It demonstrates just how effective well placed propaganda can be when targeted at the right people. And we know now that modern political operations know exactly what propaganda to serve up to individuals to get the response they want.

Yep. Like people who said not voting for Hilary was akin to sexism, conveniently ignoring her long history of warmongering. What kind of feminist okays the bombing of women and children? Feminism used to be about tearing the whole rotten system down. Now it's just about a seat at the table. We need more radical class politics, not neoliberal identity politics.

 

[tazaa]

This is why everyone should study how effectively the Nazi’s used propaganda to achieve particular aims and link that to modern day examples. This is one of the ways the people can keep democratic governments and political elites in better check, call them on their bull dust and effectively question the legitimacy or credibility of questionable political and economic decisions and acts.

Just on the Syria Civil War and the recent ‘chemical attack’, it doesn’t make any strategic sense for Assad to gas an isolated area, that was close to surrendering and he’s on the verge of victory in the war. Even the UN cleared him in 2012/3 over another alleged attack. Assad is a grub, don’t get me wrong, but the US and co are using very weak pretexts for further involvement in the country. Assad is the best chance for lasting stability and peace in that country. Did the USA learn nothing from Iraq.

The worlds a shit place.
Mankind has nothing to be proud of. No one will miss our race if we ceased to exist.

 

[MaddAdam]

This is why everyone should study how effectively the Nazi’s used propaganda to achieve particular aims and link that to modern day examples. This is one of the ways the people can keep democratic governments and political elites in better check, call them on their bull dust and effectively question the legitimacy or credibility of questionable political and economic decisions and acts.

Just on the Syria Civil War and the recent ‘chemical attack’, it doesn’t make any strategic sense for Assad to gas an isolated area, that was close to surrendering and he’s on the verge of victory in the war. Even the UN cleared him in 2012/3 over another alleged attack. Assad is a grub, don’t get me wrong, but the US and co are using very weak pretexts for further involvement in the country. Assad is the best chance for lasting stability and peace in that country. Did the USA learn nothing from Iraq.

Nazi propaganda was country league seconds compared to what they have now. Goebells would be astounded at how now you can form an accurate psychological profile person of someone remotely, and then serve them up individualized messaging.

 

[Zondor]

The worlds a shit place.
Mankind has nothing to be proud of. No one will miss our race if we ceased to exist.

As one of the 7 Deities I would. :stern look

 

[Orange Peanut]

The worlds a shit place.
Mankind has nothing to be proud of. No one will miss our race if we ceased to exist.

Josh Kellys Dog is this true?

 

[shintemaster]

The biggest defeat the left has suffered has been mistaking tokenistic gestures from the ruling class (like a few more women able to be corporate parasites) for real structural change. Identity politics filtered through neoliberalism in our inherently narcissistic social media world are toxic to genuine progressive change. Sadly, many on both the left and the right think that this is what real left politics is.

Couldn't agree more on this. Have had the exact same discussion many times - it's used as a Catch 22. The concept that co-opting more women / minorities etc into the position of CEO or Parliament will inherently make them better equipped bodies or create better results is dangerous. We'll just have non-white, non-male versions of the same parasites and they'll be standing there on a platform telling us how they did exactly what the community demanded...

 

[MaddAdam]

Yep. Like people who said not voting for Hilary was akin to sexism, conveniently ignoring her long history of warmongering. What kind of feminist okays the bombing of women and children? Feminism used to be about tearing the whole rotten system down. Now it's just about a seat at the table. We need more radical class politics, not neoliberal identity politics.

Agree entirely.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Nazi propaganda was country league seconds compared to what they have now. Goebells would be astounded at how now you can form an accurate psychological profile person of someone remotely, and then serve them up individualized messaging.

True, but the foundations of contemporary propaganda can be found in First World War allied propaganda and Nazi propaganda. A lot of modern lessons there.

 

[Ischenko]

I also agree. The left isn’t what it is supposed to be and it has been going that way for a while now. I would be interested to see a study on the impact of post modernism since the fall of the ussr has had on this increased emphasis on identity politics.

You can blame post-modernism/post-structuralism for a bit, but many such thinkers would be horrified to see how badly understood their ideas are. Postmodernism gives you a set of tools to analyse culture and society - like any tools, they can be used well or used badly. Unfortunately, they are often used not only badly but in ignorance. When used well, they can offer us real insight.

 

[MaddAdam]

This thread really needs to be re-titled something like:

"Nerd school, a school for nerds! All nerd socio-political/economic theorising in here"

Twinkletoes King Corey Flawed Genius - make it so

 

[Josh Kellys Dog]

Josh Kellys Dog is this true?

Once your kind invents some AI that can feed me and pick up my shit, you can all sod off.

Leave behind that bloke on this board who pulls off caged animals too.

 

[naturally north]

You ****ers need to ponder less and actually achieve something, it is highly rewarding.

 

[Mcarcherey]

You brought that study up. Not me. Somehow the "lower equality" thing supported what you were saying, but now its "problematic"?

you keep going in circles - i brought that study up because you can't do a specific study about "lower equality", thus i used a study about STEM fields as it's a major reason for the pay gap and 'gender roles'. You then challenged the study because it isn't a study about "lower equality". What point are you trying to make here?

I used that study to help make the following argument:

• Women in STEM industries face structural discrimination against promotion. This occurs whether the HR staff are male or female and still occurs when there is specific evidence showing the female candidate is superior on merit. - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140623121000.htm

• https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140623121000.htm

i responded to this - a female employee quota doesn't address this problem.

• Women in STEM report similar rates of sexual harassment to the general population of working women but report sexual discrimination at a rate almost 20% higher than the rest of the working female population. - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180109104718.htm

This article doesn't have anything about gender discrimination being 20% higher in STEM fields....

• The shortage of women in STEM positions is not due to issues such as "leaving to have a family" but to Gender Bias. (You didn't even want to read this if I didn't spell it out for you despite expecting me to read the link you provided to support your case. I did btw and found it didn't say what you thought it did. WE'll come to that next.) - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131007151635.htm

• https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131007151635.htm

i'm not going to read a whole article unless you quote or use actual facts from said article to support your argument - on the other hand i did do this. you can't just post a link and expect me somehow see your point, put in SOME effort.

i never made the argument about women not being in STEM due to starting families. Again you haven't read the article, this article has nothing about gender discrimination.

• Despite ongoing attempts to create equality in society STEM fields have a lower percentage of female graduates. (You attempted to use this article as proof of North's GEAP being counterproductive ... but in reality all it does is reflect the high levels of sex bias and discrimination in the STEM industries that was documented in the accompanying articles, the ones I've linked above.) - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180214150132.htm

• https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180214150132.htm

this article has nothing to do with gender discrimination, perhaps read it?

this article in fact suggests that women have less interest in STEM fields and that is the reason why there is a lower percentage in STEM - not discrimination.

Which is precisely what North's GEAP is there to counteract. (It was a female STEM trained person who appears to have solved Sam Wright's ongoing foot problems. FWIW.)

i'm not going to go through the reasons why i disagree with the GEAP again, and your facts (i assuming you're referring to the links as facts, because everything else you've said aren't actually supported by the articles) have just reinforced my points. and yes a ballet physio helped with wright's foot, that has no bearing on anything here.

 

[The Y Factor]

Well that's ten minutes I'm never getting back!

Back to football

 

[Snake_Baker]

Feminism used to be about tearing the whole rotten system down.

Bollocks. Women by nature are conformist.

Now it's just about a seat at the table.

Which is all it ever wanted.

 

[Arthur Cloke]

I found the Commonwealth Games Closing Ceremony to be the most sexist event I have ever witnessed. That blonde haired woman who’s name thankfully escapes me, made me feel that wearing my Frankenfurter cooking apron is inappropriate. But I can honestly say, I’ve had nothing but compliments, except when I wore it to my grandma’s wake.

 

[ferball]

I also agree. The left isn’t what it is supposed to be and it has been going that way for a while now. I would be interested to see a study on the impact of post modernism since the fall of the ussr has had on this increased emphasis on identity politics.

It has nothing to do with post modernism.

I don't even understand how post modernism got linked with it. Its like Nietzsche was responsible for the Nazis.

 

[Snake_Baker]

It has nothing to do with post modernism.

I don't even understand how post modernism got linked with it. Its like Nietzsche was responsible for the Nazis.

The references to post modernism refer to the concepts employed by the "new left" to justify their bullshit.

Most of the clowns wouldn't even know who Derrida or Focault were. They just parrot the agendas.

 

[Ischenko]

Bollocks. Women by nature are conformist.



Which is all it ever wanted.

Careful with the 'by nature' stuff. Easily leads into very dicey territory, I.e " black people are by nature lazy" etc. And second wave feminism - on which I'm not an expert but regardless - was often very much about creating new societal structures and destroying the old. Check out Marxist feminists like Silvia Federici, or more recently someone like Jessa Crispin.