NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

The old throw enough mud and some of it will stick philosophy?

Given Clarkson's previous intense public displays of anger (on too many occassions) and Hawthorn's previous notorious history of no 'recruiting black players' police, there already is enough elements at play here to suggest these allegations are plausible.

This issue should go above club or any individual loyalty, if Vossy was accused and proven to have done what Clarko is alleged t have done as Lions coach I would be demanding his immediate resignation/sacking.

 

[Saints43]

It's a report that (apparently) contains only allegations, many seemingly by 2nd hand witnesses, with no attempt to verify the claims made.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that perhaps further investigation should have been done before the report was published, especially if it turns out that some or all of the claims are false.

But there's an article in the newspaper that contains specific allegations that we can presume were vetted by the ABCs lawyers, and Clarkson and Fagans lawyers before being published. There's a bit of verification for you.

Can you think of any reason why the coaches lawyers advised their clients not to respond and didn't seek an injunction on publishing if there was no evidence to back up the claims in the ABC article?

 

[caveman72]

Given Clarkson's previous intense public displays of anger (on too many occassions) and Hawthorn's previous notorious history of no 'recruiting black players' police, there already is enough elements at play here to suggest these allegations are plausible.

This issue should go above club or any individual loyalty, if Vossy was accused and proven to have done what Clarko is alleged t have done as Lions coach I would be demanding his immediate resignation/sacking.

I was thinking more along the lines of the players having the mud thrown at them

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I was thinking more along the lines of the players having the mud thrown at them

best defence is offence!

 

[PenfoldsFan]

So let me get this right, for the past 2+ decades debate has raged over whether a Woman has the right to decide what she does with her body and whether she can abort a pregnancy that has drawn opinion from the common man in the street, Doctors, Politicians and the head of the Catholic Church and all that was really needed allegedly was the opinion of an AFL coach and his understudies.

This gives meaning to the term 'Footy Gods', thanks for clearing that up AFL.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I was thinking more along the lines of the players having the mud thrown at them

True. This is why it's important for the players and spouses identity to remain anonymous.

Remember the hate pile on Adam Goodes when he rightfully took a stance against racism and was shamefully driven from the game from racist **** knuckles ?

And now social media is more prevalent and toxic than ever..

I find it abhorrent that some posters and people on this forum and elsewhere are treating the alleged wrong players and their partners/spouses as criminals here.

And yes, at this point in time Clarkson and Fagan shouldn't automatically be condemned or judged guilty either until the investigation is complete and both men and other people that were named in report have their chance to give their version of events.

 

[jj15]

It’s only a matter of days before articles pop up with “sources” that “suggest” player X and player Y were trouble.

Things will get very dirty from here I’m afraid.

Like the articles that have popped up with “sources” such as an unnamed assitant coach or family member that “suggest” Clarkson, Fagan and Burt are Guilty?
How bizarre on one hand believe whole heartedly one sided while deflecting the other as agenda pushing.
Accused damned if they defend themselves, damned if they don’t.
Innocent until proven guilty. If proven innocent you’ll just say it’s a cover up? Fagan has an exemplary record over 30 years.

 

[gouki88]

It’s only a matter of days before articles pop up with “sources” that “suggest” player X and player Y were trouble.

Things will get very dirty from here I’m afraid.

Already got posters in here doing it, so it's not far off I reckon

 

[gouki88]

Like the articles that have popped up with “sources” such as an unnamed assitant coach or family member that “suggest” Clarkson, Fagan and Burt are Guilty?
How bizarre on one hand believe whole heartedly one sided while deflecting the other as agenda pushing.
Accused damned if they defend themselves, damned if they don’t.
Innocent until proven guilty. If proven innocent you’ll just say it’s a cover up? Fagan has an exemplary record over 30 years.

Corroborating testimony = character assassination in response to allegations? Interesting

 

[SunshineBoy]

I am curious to know whether and when the afl and Hawthorn planned to make news of the report public if the abc didnt beat them to it. In one way Jackson did them a favour by taking much of heat that the messenger always cops.

The real question should be how did the ABC find out about the review that hawthorn had commissioned , the gathering of info by Jackson wouldnt have happened in one day,

the AFL says we only got it that week I call bullshit to that , they were trying to keep it hidden till after the grand final

 

[SunshineBoy]

I don't doubt that they wanted to get the Grand Final over with first, but they may also have wanted to follow up on some of the information so that the full picture was available.

You seem to have a lot of faith in the integrity of the AFL , who is your clubs ceo again?

 

[jj15]

Corroborating testimony = character assassination in response to allegations?

Corrobattiing evidence that nothing like that happened at the club and these men accused have never exhibited this behaviour should carry the same weight then?
Won’t it come down to who was present? Ie: when the abortion comment was allegedly said who was was there that witnessed it? Didn’t hear about it, was actually there.

 

[SunshineBoy]

Safe to assume that the AFL would love to have kept it quiet for another week at least. I have heard that the Hawks were not too happy with that.
To the main issue - discovering the extent of this type of behaviour, and doing something about it, I reckon Whateley is right, an amnesty is required so that all clubs can undertake a similar report without fear of AFL punishment. Of course clubs can still be sued or face other actions, and the guilty will be banished from the game, but unless they delve deep and make significant changes, this will go on forever.

An amnesty , so no action taken here , that would be so AFL

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Like the articles that have popped up with “sources” such as an unnamed assitant coach or family member that “suggest” Clarkson, Fagan and Burt are Guilty?
How bizarre on one hand believe whole heartedly one sided while deflecting the other as agenda pushing.
Accused damned if they defend themselves, damned if they don’t.
Innocent until proven guilty. If proven innocent you’ll just say it’s a cover up? Fagan has an exemplary record over 30 years.

I think you’ll find that they were statements made by Phill Egan, who delivered the report to HFC, and has made some comments since this became public knowledge.

Who said I believed wholeheartedly, or that I was deflecting as “agenda pushing”. Get a grip.

 

[RJK Tiger]

Already got posters in here doing it, so it's not far off I reckon

Yep i said it straight away when people said that the article should not have been published and that until both sides get their say, we wont know the truth.

Reality is when one of the sides is backed by $100+ million / Billion dollar businesses that has huge influence in the majority of the media, the accusers will be attacked pillar & post. Its the most honest account of their version of the story we will get. From here on in i am expecting it to get very dirty, very quick

 

[perplexed]

The real question should be how did the ABC find out about the review that hawthorn had commissioned , the gathering of info by Jackson wouldnt have happened in one day,

the AFL says we only got it that week I call bullshit to that , they were trying to keep it hidden till after the grand final

I assumed that Jackson was approached by one of the witnesses to ensure the coverage of the report didn't misrepresent them.

 

[SunshineBoy]

Which is what those wanting to shoot the messenger don't really comprehend - plenty of journalists may go off half-cocked without attempting corroboration, plenty more work for NewsCorp or some other tabloid, and plenty still are not equipped for investigative journalism.

This journalist is none of the above - do they seriously think he would muck rake and defame the three staff named without legal advice, evidence and sources in his armory? Gillon McLachlan has also confirmed the ABC report as substantially accurate and in the same vein as the Hawthorn external investigation (he could not comment on further specifics without jeopardising the anonymity of the complainants). Why then are some still intent on dismissing all these claims out of hand? Yes, we wait until the investigation by the AFL itself plays out for now before people start getting sacked, but this all wouldn't be happening if this was mere conjecture or rumour.

That’s absolutely spot on Gilligan did say the ABC report and the review were in a very similar narrative “if you know what I mean”. That doesn’t sound like it’s all bullshit and muckraking in the ABC report

 

[gouki88]

Corrobattiing evidence that nothing like that happened at the club and these men accused have never exhibited this behaviour should carry the same weight then?
Won’t it come down to who was present? Ie: when the abortion comment was allegedly said who was was there that witnessed it? Didn’t hear about it, was actually there.

What evidence are they corroborating in your example? If there was several instances of testimony (which there aren't) then maybe, but you've tried to shift the conversation from your initial equivalence of corroboration with character attack

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Fagan has an exemplary record over 30 years.

Does he though?

How would we know?

 

[Proper Gander]

Put down the Koolade "mate". Did he punch someone in the 70's, did he? No he didn't, he coward punched someone in the 70's. Did I state that the verbal abuse was relating to a poor decision, did I? Stop putting words in my mouth, and no, there is never a valid reason to verbally abuse and swear at an umpire. Especially not when you're supposed to be setting an example as a male role model for your own son! Nice to see you're generalising the entire profession that is sports journalism - nice work there! Have you ever stopped to consider that d*ckheads are still capable of doing some nice things, but it still doesn't mean they're not bad people? It's not a difficult concept to understand.

Alastair Clarkson was 12 years old in 1980. The coward punch thing was actually towards the end of the 80s.

 

[SunshineBoy]

If these allegations are found to be true and accurate.

What is an appropriate punishment for the different parties involved?

Clarkson?
Fagan?
Burt?
Hawthorn?

If I had to guess; they'll be setting up Burt as a scapegoat for the whole thing - he's already outside the industry and he's a soft scalp that anything handed down to him won't impact any of the other clubs.

Similar to the weapon and dank

 

[SunshineBoy]

Interesting development. Makes sense, but also points to an argument being made that whatever actions took place, were commonplace or justified?

Next we’ll have the toothless AFLPA wanting representation

 

[SunshineBoy]

It’s only a matter of days before articles pop up with “sources” that “suggest” player X and player Y were trouble.

Things will get very dirty from here I’m afraid.

I tend to think that too AFL pr machine in overdrive

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I haven't watched an episode of this since the wonderful and witty John Waters was a guest panellist, but definitely tuning in tonight.

 

[Festerz]

A thought provoking article from Michael Bradley (who's a freelance writer and managing partner at Sydney firm Marque Lawyers). Sorry it's behind a paywall - although the headline and lede cover it pretty well. Or do the right thing and sign up for a Crikey subscription to get behind independent journalism.

That many outspoken commentators who are usually quick to pass judgement or make a damning assessment on most things have been quick to adopt the 'We've only heard one version of events . Let's reserve judgement until we hear the other side' line in relation to the ABC story on what has happened at Hawthorn. And it's a line we've seen others repeat in this forum.

It is part of common theme when racist allegations are made public.

And when it talking about the basic principle of natural justice it is important to understand what that means and what it doesn't.

"The Principle of Natural justice is that a person should not suffer detrimental consequences over an allegation unless that allegation has been put to them, they have had a fair opportunity to respond, and its adjudication is carried out in accordance with rules that obviate bias, irrelevance and caprice."

The principle does not dictate secrecy or silence. Nor is it a guarantee of a presumption of anything, nor a protection of privilege.

"The rule of law is, in fact, the opposite. It promises one thing only: equal treatment under the law. It guarantees no presumption, but makes one assumption: that the law is a level playing field. That it is colour-blind, gender-blind, everything-blind. That all of us who come to it will receive justice in identical measure and form."

"Tell that to an Indigenous person. They will howl. With laughter, and with grief."

"I am not advocating that allegations in this context must be accepted without question or the rights of the accused be denied. I am saying that, when secrecy and due process have become part of the architecture of suppression of the ugly truth, then a different approach is warranted."

"If an institution like the AFL is serious about breaking with its own history of racism, then what happened this past week with Hawthorn, in full public glare, is exactly what’s required."

That it took the shocking allegations from indigenous families in an ABC article to finally make that happen after decades of similar stories without the AFL doing a damned thing in response tells a story of its own!

Not all the howls about racism at Hawthorn are equal — because some can force footy to break with its past

Some claim the accusations of racism against the Hawthorn Football Club have resulted in a rush to judgment. For many, that judgment can't come soon enough.

www.crikey.com.au