Moved Thread Heritier Lumumba Documentary - Fair Game (SBS)

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SterlingArcher said:
The Pies players are ******* dickheads for even bringing up the word chimp once knowing Lumumba, and the obvious implications. And if the nickname did stick around as per Lumumbas claims even poorer form.

Lumumba is a dickhead for numerous reasons, but not for standing up against the boys club culture (undoubtedly present at all clubs, not just targeted at Collingwood). Shock horror black man doesn't love being vilified by his so-called mates and brings it up years later...
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What? So he should shut his mouth and not raise it?
 

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Ron The Bear said:
He departed two clubs on bad terms, and chances are he would've finished up the same way at any of the other 16.

The way I see it, there are two possibilities - football is rotten or Lumumba is hypersensitive/exaggerating.

Maybe there's nothing to it, but the timing of this being screened is interesting with Buckley's future in the balance.
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Maybe there are elements of his personality that meant he struggles to fit in the kind of organisation you find at a football club? It isn't for everyone, that doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with race. Plenty of young men enter the system and leave pretty quickly having discovered that while they enjoy playing the game, the AFL level is not for them for a load of different reasons.

I don't really know Lumumba any more than any other person posting in this thread. All we know is what we have been shown through the media, which is never the full story. We are starting to hear more of his side now, I'm interested to listen and I see no reason to completely distrust him, knowing what I know I have experienced of the casual racism, homophobia and sexism that exists within football.

In this case, though, the racism and homophobia he encountered seem to have exacerbated any problems he already had. For a long time he was able to participate within the club in a way that his coaches and teammates have complimented. He also struggled through that time for a number of reasons. When he raised the issues, he felt they wasn't dealt with in a satisfactory way - he felt further marginalised. Clearly he has also suffered with mental illness too. He isn't the only one in the game who suffers as a result. That is something that the game is only starting to get to grips with. It wouldn't be surprising if a few years ago it was something that wasn't well understood within the club and wasn't as well managed as it could be, would it?

I don't see why it has to be so black and white, that either the game is totally or rotten or Lumumba is a liar. I don't think he is a liar, I think he honestly feels the things he is communicated. As with anybody's feeling, those are the result of a combination of both the events that actually happened, the things that were actually said, as well as how his particular personality, background and context led him to interpret them. No doubt he was sensitive to racism. As a black man in Australia, that shouldn't be a surprise. Who is to say that sensitivity is "hypersensitivity"? It seems like people jump to that conclusion because they would rather the problem not be that we have issues regarding racism/sexism/homophobia, but rather a problem with overreacting women/POCs/homosexuals - that is, that the problem is not "us", it is "them".

I'd like to think that if he was at Sydney he would not have felt marginalised or ignored when he raised the issues he raised. Our club has strongly supported our aboriginal players, we are at the forefront of campaigns against homophobia within the league... so yeah, maybe it would have been different if was at our club. Maybe not. Regardless, just because you think he wouldn't fit in at any club doesn't mean that at least some of the reason for that can be found in the culture of our game and in our clubs rather than in himself alone.
 
Chief said:
I kind of agree but also... you know... the whole pseudo-intellectual stuff.
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We don't even like intellectualism, let alone "pseudo-intellectualism" in this country. Anything remotely challenging gets cut down to size. Again, though, I'm not going to recommend him for a dinner party guest or a mate to have a beer with for anyone. Personally I'd rather hang out with him than I would hang out with Dustin Martin, but that's just me.The fact that anyone has a problem with how he expresses himself is no reason to immediately discount the content of what he says.
 
RobbieK said:
BigFooty never fails to disappoint.

No problem with a black man as long as he keeps his mouth shut and just plays the game. As soon as they open their mouths to give their opinion, though, they are immediately labeled a "flog". As soon as they say anything about race they are "playing the victim" or being "politically correct". Uppity black men always need to be put back in their place. Winwar, Goodes, its always the same. People will come up with their "legitimate" non-racist reasons for piling on, but they are always weak as piss. Ironically there seems to be a large crossover between the types who bemoan the lack of "characters" in the game these days, people willing to speak their mind and buck the trend. If you are white your racism, sexism and homophobia gets laughed off as "boys being boys", apologies "if people were offended" are given and nothing changes. Just don't be a black man and don't hold a mirror up to people that might make them feel uncomfortable with what they seen in the reflection.

Lumumba raises legitimate issues of racism and homophobia with football. He tells a story or raising his issues within the club and trying to work through them in a constructive way, and constantly being ignored, side-lined or ridiculed. Do people doubt that there is at least some truth to these claims? Do people think that that isn't a problem? Does anyone wonder why, then, he became frustrated and disillusioned?

He isn't the first to highlight these issues within the game, he won't be the last because change is all too slow. Glad to hear he has moved on with his life and is doing better these days. He might not be the kind of person you personally would want to be friends with or have a beer with, that's fine, but to ignore what he has to say entirely on the basis of your impression of his personality is asinine and the kind of thing that allows the boys club to keep on perpetuating itself.
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Nail. Head. As I've said, majority seems to rule. Unfortunate when the easy thing to do in a white society is to follow the majority opinion. This inevitably leads to the 'harden the **** up culture' we've all become accustomed to.
 
Yeti said:
There is no institutional racism in Australia.

As a white immigrant to this country i was mercilessly bullied in my first 12 months being in the country. Looking back on it i don't think it was racism it was because i was different. It is the same with just about anything. If you are different the natural reaction is to reject. Whether you are a different due to where you were born the colour of your hair or what you choose to wear you are going to be picked on until you assimilate.

After living in various countries this is the way I see almost all communities.

Herrieter is a flog who has a history of histrionic behaviour and in my opinion has a severe personality disorder.

No one shpuld be abused due to their race and if that occurred at Collingwood it is a disgrace. I am not sure that I necessarily believe it though the timing is suspect.
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So, in summary:

"I am a white person and when I came to this country I don't think the way I was mistreated was because of race so institutional racism doesn't exist. Here is my unqualified psychological assessment of a person I have never met. The problem is him."

For some reason I'm not convinced.
 
RobbieK said:
Maybe there are elements of his personality that meant he struggles to fit in the kind of organisation you find at a football club? It isn't for everyone, that doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with race. Plenty of young men enter the system and leave pretty quickly having discovered that while they enjoy playing the game, the AFL level is not for them for a load of different reasons.

I don't really know Lumumba any more than any other person posting in this thread. All we know is what we have been shown through the media, which is never the full story. We are starting to hear more of his side now, I'm interested to listen and I see no reason to completely distrust him, knowing what I know I have experienced of the casual racism, homophobia and sexism that exists within football.

In this case, though, the racism and homophobia he encountered seem to have exacerbated any problems he already had. For a long time he was able to participate within the club in a way that his coaches and teammates have complimented. He also struggled through that time for a number of reasons. When he raised the issues, he felt they wasn't dealt with in a satisfactory way - he felt further marginalised. Clearly he has also suffered with mental illness too. He isn't the only one in the game who suffers as a result. That is something that the game is only starting to get to grips with. It wouldn't be surprising if a few years ago it was something that wasn't well understood within the club and wasn't as well managed as it could be, would it?

I don't see why it has to be so black and white, that either the game is totally or rotten or Lumumba is a liar. I don't think he is a liar, I think he honestly feels the things he is communicated. As with anybody's feeling, those are the result of a combination of both the events that actually happened, the things that were actually said, as well as how his particular personality, background and context led him to interpret them. No doubt he was sensitive to racism. As a black man in Australia, that shouldn't be a surprise. Who is to say that sensitivity is "hypersensitivity"? It seems like people jump to that conclusion because they would rather the problem not be that we have issues regarding racism/sexism/homophobia, but rather a problem with overreacting women/POCs/homosexuals - that is, that the problem is not "us", it is "them".

I'd like to think that if he was at Sydney he would not have felt marginalised or ignored when he raised the issues he raised. Our club has strongly supported our aboriginal players, we are at the forefront of campaigns against homophobia within the league... so yeah, maybe it would have been different if was at our club. Maybe not. Regardless, just because you think he wouldn't fit in at any club doesn't mean that at least some of the reason for that can be found in the culture of our game and in our clubs rather than in himself alone.
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Would you defend his obnoxious behavior if he was a white heterosexual?

No you wouldn't. Not even in the slightest. Being of darker skin colour doesn't mean a free pass at being an arse. Or does it?
 
RobbieK said:
We don't even like intellectualism, let alone "pseudo-intellectualism" in this country. Anything remotely challenging gets cut down to size. Again, though, I'm not going to recommend him for a dinner party guest or a mate to have a beer with for anyone. Personally I'd rather hang out with him than I would hang out with Dustin Martin, but that's just me.The fact that anyone has a problem with how he expresses himself is no reason to immediately discount the content of what he says.
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You're an intelligent person.

Unfortunately it's because people don't like thinking more than they need to, like to seek comfort with the common thought because it's easy, and certainly like putting the minority opinion back in its place because it's not universally understood.
 
RobbieK said:
So, in summary:

"I am a white person and when I came to this country I don't think the way I was mistreated was because of race so institutional racism doesn't exist. Here is my unqualified psychological assessment of a person I have never met. The problem is him."

For some reason I'm not convinced.
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Show me an example of institutional racism in Australia and I will get on board with you.

As for your assumption on my qualifications, your assumption is factually incorrect.
 
Thats Wright said:
Would you defend his obnoxious behavior if he was a white heterosexual?

No you wouldn't. Not even in the slightest. Being of darker skin colour doesn't mean a free pass at being an arse. Or does it?
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What has he done that was so obnoxious?

It is hard to tell from the outside without full information. Clearly there were issues with the way he left both clubs. I'm certainly not going to say his behaviour has nothing to do with it in either situation. But I'm also not inclined to jump to the conclusion that the only problems were coming from him either.
 

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demondavey said:
You're an intelligent person.

Unfortunately it's because people don't like thinking more than they need to, like to seek comfort with the common thought because it's easy, and certainly like putting the minority opinion back in its place because it's not universally understood.
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You never were good at team work were you? Only child?
 
RobbieK said:
Maybe there are elements of his personality that meant he struggles to fit in the kind of organisation you find at a football club? It isn't for everyone, that doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with race. Plenty of young men enter the system and leave pretty quickly having discovered that while they enjoy playing the game, the AFL level is not for them for a load of different reasons.

I don't really know Lumumba any more than any other person posting in this thread. All we know is what we have been shown through the media, which is never the full story. We are starting to hear more of his side now, I'm interested to listen and I see no reason to completely distrust him, knowing what I know I have experienced of the casual racism, homophobia and sexism that exists within football.

In this case, though, the racism and homophobia he encountered seem to have exacerbated any problems he already had. For a long time he was able to participate within the club in a way that his coaches and teammates have complimented. He also struggled through that time for a number of reasons. When he raised the issues, he felt they wasn't dealt with in a satisfactory way - he felt further marginalised. Clearly he has also suffered with mental illness too. He isn't the only one in the game who suffers as a result. That is something that the game is only starting to get to grips with. It wouldn't be surprising if a few years ago it was something that wasn't well understood within the club and wasn't as well managed as it could be, would it?

I don't see why it has to be so black and white, that either the game is totally or rotten or Lumumba is a liar. I don't think he is a liar, I think he honestly feels the things he is communicated. As with anybody's feeling, those are the result of a combination of both the events that actually happened, the things that were actually said, as well as how his particular personality, background and context led him to interpret them. No doubt he was sensitive to racism. As a black man in Australia, that shouldn't be a surprise. Who is to say that sensitivity is "hypersensitivity"? It seems like people jump to that conclusion because they would rather the problem not be that we have issues regarding racism/sexism/homophobia, but rather a problem with overreacting women/POCs/homosexuals - that is, that the problem is not "us", it is "them".

I'd like to think that if he was at Sydney he would not have felt marginalised or ignored when he raised the issues he raised. Our club has strongly supported our aboriginal players, we are at the forefront of campaigns against homophobia within the league... so yeah, maybe it would have been different if was at our club. Maybe not. Regardless, just because you think he wouldn't fit in at any club doesn't mean that at least some of the reason for that can be found in the culture of our game and in our clubs rather than in himself alone.
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I guess that even though Harry is the only player trashing his own club over the issues of racism and homophobia, that there could be serious entrenched problems in the game. Equally, there are people who are simply difficult to get along with for one reason or another, no matter the setting. Maybe it's a little from column A and a little from column B. Unless someone at the club is prepared to back Harry's version of things, I know where the balance of probabilities lies.

Since we're talking about a full and honest account of what happened at Collingwood, I'd be interested to know whether it's true that Lumumba made sexist remarks in front of an audience and/or took part in the "volcanic behaviour" referenced by Pert, and where these issues reside in his moral framework. Otherwise it'd be better for all concerned if he settled into social working obscurity.
 
RobbieK said:
What has he done that was so obnoxious?

It is hard to tell from the outside without full information. Clearly there were issues with the way he left both clubs. I'm certainly not going to say his behaviour has nothing to do with it in either situation. But I'm also not inclined to jump to the conclusion that the only problems were coming from him either.
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If you don't know about his obnoxious history there isn't any hope for you.

Yea the mainstream hate him. Probably for good reason. You have a stance against that. Hooray. Doesn't make it less pretentious or annoying. It actually makes a forum type lifestyle sustainable.
 
Thats Wright said:
If you don't know about his obnoxious history there isn't any hope for you.

Yea the mainstream hate him. Probably for good reason. You have a stance against that. Hooray. Doesn't make it less pretentious or annoying. It actually makes a forum type lifestyle sustainable.
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You were asked to highlight his obnoxious behaviour.

'The mainstream hate him. Probably for good reason'.

So if the mainstream believe it, it's good reason?

Starting to hear it all now.
 

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