Hurting Coach

[Macca19]

Originally posted by campbell
Was watching the Port coach a the Gabba last year. I feel for those players. He's a real tough one.Harsh would be the word.
He will be under the pump to win a GF, I wouldn't reckon anything else would satisfy the Board or supporters of Port.

It depends really. He is definatly under the pump. Two years in a row we've stuffed up a major home final that you would think we should of won fairly comfortably.

So it really depends. If we get to the Prelim next year, and go down fighting, and not play pathetic football like we did against Collingwood and Hawthorn in the last two years then he will be safe. If we choke again this year then i reckon he will be gone.

 

[Andre]

Originally posted by Macca19
It depends really. He is definatly under the pump. Two years in a row we've stuffed up a major home final that you would think we should of won fairly comfortably.

So it really depends. If we get to the Prelim next year, and go down fighting, and not play pathetic football like we did against Collingwood and Hawthorn in the last two years then he will be safe. If we choke again this year then i reckon he will be gone.

I think the prelim. final debate had an effect, but only by it's effect, not the result. The build up against Brisbane and 'securing' the home prelim. had everyone (including many supporters) looking ahead to that match - especially when it appeared it'd probably be a Port/Crows game. I think the coach and many players, whether they intended to or not were looking too far ahead and didn't give the collingwood match the preparation or respect it deserved.

I think you can safely say if Port are in the same position come rnd 22 this year, they won't mention the prelim. final until the week of the prelim. final and give the qualifying the attention it merits. Although certainly not the only reason, Port getting ahead of themselves was a contributing factor in the Collingwood loss. They have to live and learn from it and I think they have.

That and Mark Williams on answering every question about finals and our record needs to say "It's just another game we have to win". And keep on saying it till the reporters and opposition coach get frurstrated to tears that they can't get a rise out him or any other answer.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Andre
I think the coach and many players, whether they intended to or not were looking too far ahead and didn't give the collingwood match the preparation or respect it deserved.

This may or may not be true. Many Crows fans and many Port fans seems to be under the impression that their team was and is actually better than Collingwood - probably based largely on ladder position at the end of the H&A.

Match results just don't bear this out. Collingwood have a positive recent record and that is away. IMO the 3 teams are pretty evenly matched.

 

[Andre]

Originally posted by MarkT
This may or may not be true. Many Crows fans and many Port fans seems to be under the impression that their team was and is actually better than Collingwood - probably based largely on ladder position at the end of the H&A.

Match results just don't bear this out. Collingwood have a positive recent record and that is away. IMO the 3 teams are pretty evenly matched.

Including finals matches in the equation (giving each team 25 matches for the H & A plus finals) Port still had the best win-loss ratio, was the only team to win during the year in SA, Melbourne, Sydney, WA AND Tasmania. The only state we couldn't record a win in was QLD (which collingwood didn't play in). Home win/loss percentage and away win/loss was the best of the three teams.

So the point ? Port had the best H & A performance, Collingwood the best finals performance AND Port had the best overall performance. This is why Port supporters have the impression our team was better and a reply of the Round 22 match at the MCG in the last week of september was the ending the season deserved. It wasn't to be and are now looking forward to season 2003 with a list that has only gotten stronger over the draft and trade period.

 

[The Phat Side]

Its quite amusing to hear the excuses from Port fans regarding the rd 22 match being the reason they performed badly v Collingwood. IIRC there was another team in that closely fought rd 22 game. A team to whom the MCG contract had an equal effect. A team who, in fact, had it tougher than Port cos they had to travel to Adelaide in rd 22 and then back to Brisbane to play in a final the next week. Yet, surprise surprise this gladiatorial, all or nothing, "it really killed us" rd 22 match that could have gone either way seemed to have little or no effect on them as the Lions wiped the floor with Adelaide in their first final.

Come on Port. As McEnroe would say, you cant be serious.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Andre
So the point ? Port had the best H & A performance, Collingwood the best finals performance AND Port had the best overall performance. This is why Port supporters have the impression our team was better and a reply of the Round 22 match at the MCG in the last week of september was the ending the season deserved. It wasn't to be and are now looking forward to season 2003 with a list that has only gotten stronger over the draft and trade period.

The H&A is a season of matches completed to allow you play finals. We have a winner take all system. To be the best H&A side means little if you are not the finals side. It's good to win during the year but as tyou've seen it means Jack in the grand scheme of things. As for you comments, you proved my point. You think Port were/are a bgetter team because they finished higher. Ladder position is one indicator but not definitive. The mere fact that the back to back premiership winners did not finish first is proof enough of that. The piont is that in actual head to head matches Port do not have any reason to believe they are any better than Collingwood at all. One win of 5 points in a game that could easily have been a draw out of 3 home games hardly indicates anything pointing to superiority. 2003 is a new season but Collingwood are rightly as confident as Port.

As for the ending the season deserved, well if one of the best GF's of the last 20 years wasn't good enough then you are hard to please as a footy fan. The truth is the season couldn't desrve more than it got. Personally I'd like to see Collingwood win but Collingwood losing a close GF to the best team for quite some time is a pretty fitting end in most people's eyes I would think. Apart from the result, the game was a cracker. To assume Port would have done any better is simply illogical given their 2 from 3 finals losses and especially given you claim that round 22 took too much out of them. If you can't get past a hard round 22 you have NO chance after a month of finals.

Personally I am happy with the attitude of many Port supporters. I only hope it carries through to the club. The less they realise how far off a premiership they are the better as far as I'm concerned. For that matter, the further everyone thinks Collingwood is from the top teams the better. I'm pretty sure Malthouse loves it all and Williams hates it.

 

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by MarkT
This may or may not be true. Many Crows fans and many Port fans seems to be under the impression that their team was and is actually better than Collingwood - probably based largely on ladder position at the end of the H&A.

Match results just don't bear this out. Collingwood have a positive recent record and that is away. IMO the 3 teams are pretty evenly matched.

Quoting head-to-head records against overall performance records is typical for fans of an erratic side - because there weren't as many wins overall as for other sides, such fans must necessarily focus on the few positives.

Seriously, I think most of the teams near one another are pretty damn close in ability. However - because teams are pretty close - you get two effects (1) any game can go either way, if one team is just a little off then the underdog can, and quite often does, get up, and (2) because of the first point, then if anything it is better to ignore head-to-head results as being "too small a sample size" ... the overall performance over the whole season is a better indicator of which side was in fact better.

Collingwood won two less games than Crows, four less than Brisbane and five less than Port over the 22 rounds. While I agree that there is not much separating the sides, if you were going to try to decide which was the better side and rank them, then this indicates Collingwood were the least well performed of the top 4. IMO.

 

[ok.crows]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hurting Coach

Originally posted by Tio_Ray
The bookies had Brisbane as dead set favourites and almost all outside of the Army had picked Brisbane. It was an "incredible" GF and the result was in the balance right up until the final 5 mins.

Very interesting.

In '97 and '98 the Crows were just as much underdogs as Pies in 02. In '97 there were Saints fans asking what the record winning margin for a GF was, thinking their team might have a crack at beating that record, and in 98 the Roos were just about unbackable favourites and their fans were supremely confident of victory also.

Not many suggest that the crows GF wins in '97 and '98 were "incredible GF games".

The difference was, in '97 and in '98 ... the underdog side actually won the GF game.

In '02 the Pies lost, just as most people thought they would.

Nothing whatsoever incredible about it, as far as I can tell.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by ok.crows
Quoting head-to-head records against overall performance records is typical for fans of an erratic side - because there weren't as many wins overall as for other sides, such fans must necessarily focus on the few positives.

Maybe so, but context is important also. My point about head to head was merely to show that it is far from a given that Port, or Adelaide for that matter, are superior to the team which after all finished second above them. To use the H&A ladder as more indicative than the actual matches between the sides and the ladder upon completion iof the season is far more selective than my point. The few positives you point to as not as few as the ones you rely on if all you have is the result of matches played to achieve finals positioning and planning.

Originally posted by ok.crows
Seriously, I think most of the teams near one another are pretty damn close in ability.

Yes that's exactly what I said.

Originally posted by ok.crows
However - because teams are pretty close - you get two effects (1) any game can go either way, if one team is just a little off then the underdog can, and quite often does, get up, and (2) because of the first point, then if anything it is better to ignore head-to-head results as being "too small a sample size" ... the overall performance over the whole season is a better indicator of which side was in fact better.

So what does the overall performance show? The overall performance comprises head to head battles, a post H&A result and a post "whole season" result. Of these or any other aspects you care to mention only one is really important. Of all supporters, Crows should understand this. It is completely irrelevant whether you win or lose rounds 1 to 3 if you get to the GF and win it. Not all games are equal. To say that a post H&A ladder position is the best indicator of ability is ti ignore the way Australian Football is played with our finals system and at least as selective as any other criteria. If you cant beat a team and ultimately finish lower than them, I find it hard to accept that you are better than them. The same argumnet goes for Geelong and Hawthord in 1989. Geelong were clearly and unequivocably not as good as Hawthorn IMO.

Originally posted by ok.crows
Collingwood won two less games than Crows, four less than Brisbane and five less than Port over the 22 rounds. While I agree that there is not much separating the sides, if you were going to try to decide which was the better side and rank them, then this indicates Collingwood were the least well performed of the top 4. IMO.

Finishing 4th at the end of the H&A would indicate you are correct if it wa the only relevant criteria. On the same basis the Crows won premierships as "poor" sides. In the end they won premierships. The finals results are what counts. Brisbane were the best etam in the competition in 2002 and Collingwood were the second. I am prepared to accept that the secong point is debatable. I am not claiming this as indisputable fact. What I am claiming is that any claim the either Port or the Crows are superior is based on limited statistical evidence and even if it were true, to say they were in any way unlucky to loose to Collingwood is unable to be substantiated gived that firstly they actuall lost and secondly, that losing form was cansistant with recent history. They are some objective tests and they show that my opinion is more sustainable than yours IMO.

 

[MarkT]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hurting Coach

Originally posted by ok.crows
In '02 the Pies lost, just as most people thought they would.

Nothing whatsoever incredible about it, as far as I can tell.

This I agree with. The best team won. Collingwood are not far away from Brisbane. Neither are a couple of other teams but Brisbane are clearly ahead. The fact is, Collingwood are a fair bit closer than many people think. AGain, the objective tests are the actual results, not opinions of how good a player or team is. This is precicely why the Crows back to back effort is so under rated.

 

[Tio_Ray]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hurting Coach

Originally posted by Macca19
Collingwood fans to claim it was incredible to get that close to Brisbane is simply garbage. It was not incredible.
These are the facts:

Garbage...Who says it was incredible because just because we got close to Brisbane?????? You thats who (king of double speak)....incredible because is was close...incredible because of how we got there....incredible because of the amount of times the lead changed..and all the other reasons that you ADMIT made it a great game.

THE ONLY ONE USING ONE REASON IS YOU AND ROYLION......go suck a lemon....should go well with your sour grapes...hehehe....funny how even Roylion has sour grapes and they won (must be a handycapped thing).....just shows what an INCREDIBLE team Collingwood are...admit it....it really makes supporters of the little teams angry that the Magpies are held above all others.

 

[understudy]

Originally posted by ok.crows

Collingwood won two less games than Crows, four less than Brisbane and five less than Port over the 22 rounds. While I agree that there is not much separating the sides, if you were going to try to decide which was the better side and rank them, then this indicates Collingwood were the least well performed of the top 4. IMO.

Theoretical Point:

This disregards the difficulty of a teams draw in this uneven draw we have.

A better indicator of performance might be to look at respective sides performances against other sides in the 8! Dont u think?

 

[The Phat Side]

by okcrows

Collingwood won two less games than Crows, four less than Brisbane and five less than Port over the 22 rounds

Crows only won one more than Collingwood at the end of H&A.

 

[Macca19]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hurting Coach

Originally posted by Tio_Ray
Garbage...Who says it was incredible because just because we got close to Brisbane??????

Maybe you should open your eyes you ****ing dip****.

by nick the PIE man on page 4 of this thread:
To get a team with our seemingly 'no-name' list to come 9 points away from winning a flag against a team where 3 of the 4 in their midfield are Brownlow medalists and including 6 All Australians to none is incredible.

Now what does that look like to you moron??? Does it not look like a COLLINGWOOD SUPPORTER SAYING IT WAS INCREDIBLE???

lemon....should go well with your sour grapes...

what ****ing sour grapes?? What the hell am i supposed to have sour grapes over?? I have sour grapes because Collingwood lost the grand final?? How does that work? Am i meant to have sour grapes because you beat us in the first Final?? I couldnt care less...well done...congratulations. I dunno how many bloody times ive said congratulations on winning that final just for pathetic new comers like you to come in and accuse people of having sour grapes when youve got no ****ing idea of what people were posting at the time.

hehehe....funny how even Roylion has sour grapes and they won (must be a handycapped thing).....just shows what an INCREDIBLE team Collingwood are...admit it....it really makes supporters of the little teams angry that the Magpies are held above all others.

Where do my sour grapes come into it?? I disagreed with NICK THE PIE MANS post that it was incredible that Collingwood got so close to Brisbane in the Grand Final. Now how the **** is that sour grapes??

Getting within 9 points of Brisbane in a grand final is not an incredible result. The sooner you get your head out of your rectum the better off youll be.

 

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by The Phat Side
Crows only won one more than Collingwood at the end of H&A.

Team Rd Points %
Port 22 72 132.3
Brisbane 22 68 136.7
Adelaide 22 60 114.9
Collingwood 22 52 109.6

60 points - 52 points = 8 points difference.

4 points per game into 8 points goes 2 games.

Wanna count that one again, Phat Side?

EdiT:

Here it is in more detail, just to be annoying:

Team P W L D For Against % Pts
Port 22 18 4 0 2360 1783 132.36 72
Brisbane 22 17 5 0 2520 1843 136.73 68
Adelaide 22 15 7 0 2308 2007 114.99 60
Collingwood 22 13 9 0 2081 1897 109.69 52

Lets see, 15 wins - 13 wins = 2 more wins, at least it was when I went to school.

 

[The Phat Side]

by okcrows

Team Rd Points %
Port 22 72 132.3
Brisbane 22 68 136.7
Adelaide 22 60 114.9
Collingwood 22 52 109.6

60 points - 52 points = 8 points difference.

4 points per game into 8 points goes 2 games.

Wanna count that one again, Phat Side?

Fair enough. Just going by the ladder on the Herald Sun Website front page

http://heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/

It must be wrong I guess. Good help is hard to find.

 

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by understudy
Theoretical Point:

This disregards the difficulty of a teams draw in this uneven draw we have.

A better indicator of performance might be to look at respective sides performances against other sides in the 8! Dont u think?

Not really. As I say, any given game might go one way or the other, and the may be a case for thinking that the better method of judging performance is to take it over many games.

The head-to-head comparison is flawed by the vagaries of a lot of factors other than just form. The tally of games won at the end of the season is less influenced by that variation, but OTOH as you poin tout it is flawed by unequal draws - some sides are easier to beat than others, and there are differing amounts of encumberances such as travel to contend with for different sides.

Overall though - given that neither comparison is ideal, I'd still plump for the one with more "experimental data" behind it.

 

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by The Phat Side
Fair enough. Just going by the ladder on the Herald Sun Website front page

http://heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/

It must be wrong I guess. Good help is hard to find.

It most definitely is wrong. The Crows won 15 games in 2002 minor round, Collingwood won 13.

The realfooty website (the Age) and the AFL official site can confirm this for you.

 

[Tio_Ray]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hurting Coach

Originally posted by Macca19
Maybe you should open your eyes you ****ing dip****.



Now what does that look like to you moron??? Does it not look like a COLLINGWOOD SUPPORTER SAYING IT WAS INCREDIBLE???



what ****ing sour grapes?? What the hell am i supposed to have sour grapes over?? I have sour grapes because Collingwood lost the grand final?? How does that work? Am i meant to have sour grapes because you beat us in the first Final?? I couldnt care less...well done...congratulations. I dunno how many bloody times ive said congratulations on winning that final just for pathetic new comers like you to come in and accuse people of having sour grapes when youve got no ****ing idea of what people were posting at the time.



Where do my sour grapes come into it?? I disagreed with NICK THE PIE MANS post that it was incredible that Collingwood got so close to Brisbane in the Grand Final. Now how the **** is that sour grapes??

Getting within 9 points of Brisbane in a grand final is not an incredible result. The sooner you get your head out of your rectum the better off youll be.

You have got to be joking you gutless, double speaking, deliberately mis-quoteing, sour grapes, desperate, shameless fool!!!

NICK THE PIE MAN should not have to write a book, listing all the bloody stupid reasons why the collingwood/lions final was a great/incredible GF. You are a stupid little BY-AT-CH if you think he has too or else sooky magots like you are free to twist and misquote him.

YES, you do have sour grapes....It does not matter how many times you want to post congratulations to the pies...you forken suck, WE DON'T WANT IT....the proof is in the pudding kid, not in EMPTY WORDS ON YOUR CRAPY POSTS.....only an imature kid like you could hope to defend his own stupidity by holding up your paper thin defence.

You have a disease that many posters here have.... you fail to understand the meaning of posts and feel free to mis-quote others, to use others posts in a way that it was not ment to be. So basically you can eat shlt and die....continue to invent crap kid...you are probably young (or stupid or both) enouth to think it works out side the play ground as well..OHHH...here is another stupid saying people here seem to think works.....it you don't like what I have to say...then don't read it......forken hell....what a load of CRAP...WAKE UP!!!!!!

 

[Macca19]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hurting Coach

Originally posted by Tio_Ray
You have got to be joking you gutless, double speaking, deliberately mis-quoteing, sour grapes, desperate, shameless fool!!!

NICK THE PIE MAN should not have to write a book, listing all the bloody stupid reasons why the collingwood/lions final was a great/incredible GF.

He did not say anywhere anything about it being an incredible grand final. He said it was incredible that Collingwood got so close to Brisbane....saying it like Brisbane was some super human team. Which Brisbane is not.

The ONLY thing Nick said about the actual standard of the match was "It was a close match, anyone's game".

But of course...someone of your intelligence (lack thereof) wouldnt realise that Nick didnt say anything about why the final was a great final.

He brought a team that was lacking in talent compared to Brisbane and installed in them some heart, guts and determination. He has done INCREDIBLE with the talent he has had at his disposal. To get a team with our seemingly 'no-name' list to come 9 points away from winning a flag against a team where 3 of the 4 in their midfield are Brownlow medalists and including 6 All Australians to none is incredible

Please show me where the hell Nick said anything about it being a great game??

Have a go kid. Where is Nick saying it was a great incredible grand final???

All i see is Nick saying it was incredible that Collingwood got within 9 points of Brisbane.

Maybe Nick would like to tell us what he meant.

 

[Port01]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hurting Coach

Originally posted by Macca19

Please show me where the hell Nick said anything about it being a great game??

Have a go kid. Where is Nick saying it was a great incredible grand final???

All i see is Nick saying it was incredible that Collingwood got within 9 points of Brisbane.

Maybe Nick would like to tell us what he meant.

Quite incredible given it was the only time Brisbane beat a top 4 side outside of Brisbane. (1-3 their overall result in the category).

Brisbane are a top side, but they are still not close to as good away from the gabba. 13-1 at home the last two seasons (including finals), but only 7-4 away both years (including GF's).

Close to unbeatable at home, top side but not close to immortal away.

 

[Tio_Ray]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hurting Coach

Originally posted by Macca19
He did not say anywhere anything about it being an incredible grand final. He said it was incredible that Collingwood got so close to Brisbane....saying it like Brisbane was some super human team. Which Brisbane is not.

The ONLY thing Nick said about the actual standard of the match was "It was a close match, anyone's game".

But of course...someone of your intelligence (lack thereof) wouldnt realise that Nick didnt say anything about why the final was a great final.



Please show me where the hell Nick said anything about it being a great game??

Have a go kid. Where is Nick saying it was a great incredible grand final???

All i see is Nick saying it was incredible that Collingwood got within 9 points of Brisbane.

Maybe Nick would like to tell us what he meant.

I am going out now so let me make this brief....to be honest I am a prick of a man that was just baiting you.....cya all in a week.....me love you all long time......hope you all continue to hate Collingwood.....the Army loves it when you all get upset...hehehehehhehe......2003 is set to be a record year for attendance......everyone is **** scared the Pies will win the GF....its true that we think we are better than the collective lot of you....Its just a fact of life, so live with it....Just remember one thing....no matter how much you all collectively hate us....we don't give a CRAP about you....you are all just there for our amusement...and always will be.

I'll be having a good time,
Wish you all were here.

Love TioRay

 

[go team]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hurting Coach

Originally posted by Tio_Ray
Just remember one thing....no matter how much you all collectively hate us....we don't give a CRAP about you....you are all just there for our amusement...and always will be.

somebody get hallmark on the line, a greeting card with a message like that would sell through the roof!

 

[Ripper]

Originally posted by understudy
Theoretical Point:

This disregards the difficulty of a teams draw in this uneven draw we have.

A better indicator of performance might be to look at respective sides performances against other sides in the 8! Dont u think?

IMO A non Vic Side has to be a better side to make the top four (than a Vic side) and better again to win a premiership on account of the travel.

If/When the vic sides go to Perth they are surprised to win and flat the next week gernerally.

however when the SA sides come over they generally win or go close.

 

[go team]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hurting Coach

dear the rest of the world

....Just remember one thing....no matter how much you all collectively hate us....we don't give a CRAP about you....you are all just there for our amusement...and always will be.

love America


(that's how the greeting card would work)