If you love someone set them free

[Chemicalbrother]

If what we are led to believe in the various media outlets is true and that Denis Pagan will have to take a very significant salary reduction if he is to continue his tenure at the Kangaroos, then I say let him go! My reasons are as follows:

1. He is worth what he is asking, an impeccable coaching record, he deserves the 600k he is now supposedly on and could probably command 800k on the open market. Therefore if this 40% reduction is even halfway accurate then it is too much to ask, even a 10% reduction is a slap in the face this is no way to treat a club legend.

2. We are trying to be a finacially responsible club, if we were to appoint a rookie coach say Gary O'Donnell or Mark Harvey (sorry I know they are both Bombers but they're probably the best out there) on say 200 - 300k then that frees up around 400 - 500k, a big saving considering the couple of payouts and our perilous finacial situation.

3. My only doubt on a Pagan led Dynasty at the Kanagaroos (interesting that the family name in Dynasty was the Colbys!), but I digress, is I don't know whether Denis is innovative or adaptive enough coach at the one place for such a long time. We are essentially playing the same game plan as when he first started. Other coaches Sheedy, Eade, Wallace et al. seem to adapt their style to the needs of the climate that the current game dictates. I know that a new group of players are coming through that haven't heard his message for the last 10 years but if they have to hear it for the next 10 years then the game will have passed us by.

4. Now is the perfect time to install a new coach while our core leader group is strong and our second teir players seem to be coming on okay and our rookies show some promise.

 

[Rooboy 96]

Originally posted by Chemicalbrother We are essentially playing the same game plan as when he first started.

must be a damn good gameplan...

 

[roobear]

Originally posted by Chemicalbrother
3. We are essentially playing the same game plan as when he first started. Other coaches Sheedy, Eade, Wallace et al. seem to adapt their style to the needs of the climate that the current game dictates. I know that a new group of players are coming through that haven't heard his message for the last 10 years but if they have to hear it for the next 10 years then the game will have passed us by.

I agree with most of what you said, but surely this year has been the best demonstration of just how good a coach he is? Points 1, 2 and 4 are all fair and reasonable, but the proof of the pudding's in the tasting, and at 6-5 with wins against the crows power and dons, I think the guy has proved enough.

 

[Chemicalbrother]

Denis has proved enough

Roobear, I agree wholeheartedly, Denis doesn't have anything left to prove, whether it be at this club or even another. I wasn't having a go a his record, especially not this season, it speaks for itself. The fact that you agree with what a good coach he is merely illustrates point 1, he is worht what we can't afford to pay!

But with a lot of our senoir and leadership group needing rockets up them at various times this year already and if ever there was a year where they shouldn't need motivation! With players like Grant, Harvey, King and Pickett has the message worn thin?

Should he stay, fantastic! Or should he go, now (end of year) would be a perfect time, an amicable parting for everyone involved.

As the thread title says… if they love you they'll come back!

 

[windsock]

Chemicalbrother, a voice of reason in a din of confusion!

 

[roobear]

Re: Denis has proved enough

Originally posted by Chemicalbrother
Roobear, I agree wholeheartedly, Denis doesn't have anything left to prove, whether it be at this club or even another. I wasn't having a go a his record, especially not this season, it speaks for itself. The fact that you agree with what a good coach he is merely illustrates point 1, he is worht what we can't afford to pay!

But with a lot of our senoir and leadership group needing rockets up them at various times this year already and if ever there was a year where they shouldn't need motivation! With players like Grant, Harvey, King and Pickett has the message worn thin?

Should he stay, fantastic! Or should he go, now (end of year) would be a perfect time, an amicable parting for everyone involved.

As the thread title says… if they love you they'll come back!

Without being pedantic, I think our disagreement lies in the fact that you don't think the 4 players should have been out of form in the first place, and that this has something to do with Denis' message. I think they all probably had different, legitimate reasons for their slumps, and Pagan's rocket (so to speak) was what sparked a turnaround for the whole team.

But that's sweet anyway, we all see it differently, and in general we have the same belief - we'd love Denis to stay, but he deserves better than what we can afford. We have to face up to the fact that this may be his last year with the roos.

And if you can help windsock not to be confused, then you're apparently a step ahead of the rest of us!

 

[Back Seat Of A Taxi]

Originally posted by windsock
a voice of reason

I hate Johnny Farnham

 

[Carlos]

Originally posted by Back Seat Of A Taxi
I hate Johnny Farnham

Now theres something i WILL agree with you on!!

 

[HoRsE]

And when we cant afford to stay in the competition do we all happily except then also? O well we cant afford Pagan, o well we cant afford to keep our next superstar, o well we cant afford to play in the AFL.
I reckon we will lose about 3000 members if Pagan leaves, which is roughly $300,000. Not to mention coaches sponsorship, will a lesser coach draw sponsors as the classy Pagan does.
It simply doesn’t make sense not to sign him, surely there are other areas to trim fat, if not we are 1 small step from non existence. What happens when we cant afford minimum salary cap, minimum coaches wages, what then?
Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I think most underestimating just how deep in the P00 we r here.

 

[Carlos]

Perhaps we'll be the first team in along time to have a Captain/Coach?? Simmo seems to have a decent footy brain?!?

 

[mark]

It looks like the AFL has told us that we need to cut our admin costs and that starts with what the club pays it's coach .
I tend to think it might be a good time for us to try a gary o'donnel or mark harvey as coach and save a bit of cash.With a new group of players coming into our first team over the next year or so it might be the right time.
Then if dennis is keen to coach this batch of young players then he should realise how hard up the club is with cash and do it for less.

If not Karl Langdon will

 

[Briedis]

I'm having a case of de ja vu I think. I seem to remember something about a 40% reduction of Pagan's pay as one of the recomendations the AFL corporate doctors made.... is this just a case of Caro bringing up an old story....

I have been thinking for weeks now that the club and Denis were going to come to terms at the end of the season anyway.

I'm getting confused by all of these bad news stories I think ... when is the light coming at the end of the tunnel?

 

[Carlos]

Same, although hopefully it isnt a steam train heading right for us!!

 

[choppy]

Re: Denis has proved enough

Originally posted by Chemicalbrother
With players like Grant, Harvey, King and Pickett has the message worn thin?

What after three or 4 years?

 

[Dingster]

I can't believe that you guys are calling for Pagan's head. The AwFuL may be able to advise to cut our operating costs with helpful suggestions, but they cannot be looking after our best interests by pushing us into a corner with Pagan. If that's the case, the gloves must come off...

At this stage I'm skeptical about the current media beatup. Dennis referred to his previous comments today that he wants to stay and the club wants him to stay.

 

[myee8]

I saw the sports report on Channel 10 news today, and while they were interviewing Denis bout his contract negotiations i couldn't help but notice that the channel 10 camera was angled in such a way that in the background was part of a Roos billboard that said "true to the roos", probably similar if not the same as what is said on the sticker that is included in your 2002 membership package. Maybe a message to Denis??

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by Back Seat Of A Taxi
I hate Johnny Farnham

Hey man, I might not like his music, but at least he's a North supporter!

He'd better be a member too though!

 

[windsock]

Re: Re: Denis has proved enough

Originally posted by choppy


What after three or 4 years?

Denis has been at the club since the beginning of 1993. King was drafted in 93, Harvey in 95, Pickett in 96 and we got Grant at the end of 97. I may be a little out with some of those but it doesn't make it three or four years in any case other than perhaps Grant. And all three - King Harvey Pickett - have had just one senior AFL coach.

 

[windsock]

Originally posted by Dingster
I can't believe that you guys are calling for Pagan's head. The AwFuL may be able to advise to cut our operating costs with helpful suggestions, but they cannot be looking after our best interests by pushing us into a corner with Pagan. If that's the case, the gloves must come off...

At this stage I'm skeptical about the current media beatup. Dennis referred to his previous comments today that he wants to stay and the club wants him to stay.

I don't think anyone is calling for Pagan's head. Far from it. I just think we realise we have to be mindful of the AFL's requests when it comes to cost cutting otherwise we'll strugle to have any future. I think we all hope we can come to some arrangement where we can keep Denis, but not at the expense of the long term welfare of the Club.

 

[Rooboy 96]

Originally posted by windsock


I don't think anyone is calling for Pagan's head. Far from it. I just think we realise we have to be mindful of the AFL's requests when it comes to cost cutting otherwise we'll strugle to have any future. I think we all hope we can come to some arrangement where we can keep Denis, but not at the expense of the long term welfare of the Club.

Let's just hand the keys to our club to Jackson and let him drive our club into the ground... like you would trust a south australian...

 

[DMcD]

Maybe Wayne Jackson would consider a paycut to assist struggling clubs such as ours. Surely that would ultimately benefit the game and that is his job aint it

 

[Rooboy 96]

Originally posted by DMcD
Maybe Wayne Jackson would consider a paycut to assist struggling clubs such as ours. Surely that would ultimately benefit the game and that is his job aint it

DMcD... you seem slightly confussed... his job is to squash small Victorian clubs in the betterment of a National competition...

 

[Rooboy 34]

Originally posted by Chemicalbrother

Other coaches Sheedy, Eade, Wallace et al. seem to adapt their style to the needs of the climate that the current game dictates.

I think that you are overrating both Eade & Wallace. They have hardly adapted their game plan. And from what - Eade came 2nd in his first season and his next best result is 5th. Not exactly a big step forward. And likewise with Wallace - he finished 3rd in his first & second full seasons, but has gone downhill since then. Denis has been around for at least 4 years longer than both of those 2 and has far better results...

 

[Dingster]

Originally posted by windsock


I don't think anyone is calling for Pagan's head. Far from it. I just think we realise we have to be mindful of the AFL's requests when it comes to cost cutting otherwise we'll strugle to have any future. I think we all hope we can come to some arrangement where we can keep Denis, but not at the expense of the long term welfare of the Club.

Despite what the AFL want the public to believe, we still control our own destiny. $1,000,000 is chicken feed in terms of the big picture. We shouldn't sell our soul. By all means deliver a business plan that demonstrates efficient operating costs, but logically we must be on the front foot and pusue our own best interests.

For instance, when the AFL says that have to be careful about giving money to a club that is paying so much to its coaching panel to be fair to the other clubs. We should say that these people ARE one of the primary reasons that we will have a viable long term future. That we DON'T have the benefit of blckbusters. We HAVE been proactive in looking at ways to improve our situation etc. Seize the day!

 

[windsock]

Originally posted by Rooboy 96


Let's just hand the keys to our club to Jackson and let him drive our club into the ground... like you would trust a south australian...

Are you suggesting we go back to the situation we had when Easy was at the Club. I think it was part of the reason he got the sack was because of his reluctance to co-operate with the AFL over cost cutting measures. Are you suggesting the Doc and the Board were wrong on this decision?
You have to realise we are in serious trouble and we need all the AFL help we can get. How else do you propose we get our hands on that $1 million assistance. Or do you think we don't need it?