If you're not a good kick at age 19-20, will you ever be?

[TAITA]

If I recall correctly, the year Goldstein was drafted was the first year he picked up and kicked a footy.

Having too much footy at a young can be a bad thing if you develop bad habits that set in.

It's easier to 'un-teach' bad habits off a low base than a long one.

I will qualify my statements that it can be done, with the direction that my footy club has taken in the past that we are only interested in blokes who can kick with efficiency.

Although that is not a guarantee of getting your way to Hawthorn, it certainly helps, unless you are outstanding at another discipline of the game.

 

[sabre_ac]

What was Barlow like as a 19 or 20 yo? I suspect he may have been one of the late bloomers or potentially came of age when recruiters were obsessed with Athletes.

 

[beatlesmith]

Eric Mackenzie, Michael Jamison are two current names that spring to mind whom have improved their kicking out of side. With the perfect practice, self-determination, mentoring and feedback to say it isn't possible, is just silly.

From the Eagles I'd add Matt Rosa to that category. Went from kicking helicopters to being one of the cleanest users in our team.

Personally, I was an average-poor kick as a kid. Struggled to get any penetration, keep it low and to apply finesse. After barely kicking a footy for a year or two, I picked one up and discovered I could kick 50+ with accuracy off a couple of steps. Still absolutely rubbish on my left though.

 

[Pykie]

What was Barlow like as a 19 or 20 yo? I suspect he may have been one of the late bloomers or potentially came of age when recruiters were obsessed with Athletes.

He won the Assumption B&F at 18, won the GVFL league best and fairest as an 18/19 year year old; the youngest to do so, and drained 40 odd touches and a couple of goals on Xavier Ellis in a rep school match who later that year was picked at #3 in the draft.


Mick definately wasn't a late bloomer, he was just "ignored" through all his underage football, apart from school football.

 

[Gavin Excell]

It's easier to 'un-teach' bad habits off a low base than a long one.

I will qualify my statements that it can be done, with the direction that my footy club has taken in the past that we are only interested in blokes who can kick with efficiency.

Although that is not a guarantee of getting your way to Hawthorn, it certainly helps, unless you are outstanding at another discipline of the game.

Yes. As game plans have become more refined you need players who can be relied upon to hit targets. That is probably enough to see the trend of recruiting athletes to drop away if, as many have suggested, you can't improve kicking beyond a certain age

 

[sabre_ac]

He won the Assumption B&F at 18, won the GVFL league best and fairest as an 18/19 year year old; the youngest to do so, and drained 40 odd touches and a couple of goals on Xavier Ellis in a rep school match who later that year was picked at #3 in the draft.


Mick definately wasn't a late bloomer, he was just "ignored" through all his underage football, apart from school football.

Wow I did not know that, incredible.

Pace issue perhaps

 

[Blessed]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamaros
This idiot is teaching kids with ozkick?

"Sorry Timmy, give it up! You'll never make it with a kick like that."

Great experience for a 5 year old.

Mate, I have trained and taught hundreds and thousands of kids along the journey. Some of them playing AFL now.

with some posts, I literally go from this

to

to

It is all about the drop onto the boot with as little exaggerated action as possible.

Some kids pick it up immediately. Those are the ones who move on to a higher level. You can improve a kid maybe 5% but if he ain't got it....

he ain't got it.

There are lots of other factors that make a good player but since our game became a kick to kick chip passing, non contested mark fest; kicking is now the No 1 skill possible.

 

[Vdubs]

Swallow is an average user of the ball.

Who or what do you define as average. He amasses way above average contested possessions, and has way below average clangers most weeks. This guy is a super player, and studying him never makes me think he is average in using the ball. Lots of short passes that generally hit the target.

One of our own guns, Joel Corey- now there is average or below average use of the ball. Has been that way since he was drafted. Yet his "brother", Enright, has definitely improved from being dodgy to very reliable.

 

[Vdubs]

I take kids for Ozkick.

If you are not a good kick at the age of 5 years old.

You never will be.

Believe me.

The best kicks are good kicks at 5.

You can't really be trained to improve your kicking style.

I do NOT believe you. I would love to see a study on that assertion. I have been involved with my son and his mates from the AUSKICK days, to TAC U18 competition, and kids improve and evolve, largely dependent on effort, concentration, willpower, and physical maturity. I agree that if a 5yo kid is an elite kick, he will probably continue to excel in kicking as a draftee. But many little tackers looked ordinary 13 years ago, and it's been rewarding seeing them develop into AFL players.

Will never forget a conversation with Paul Couch during an interview on this very topic, and he said it was ALL in the mind. When he got the ball, he knew where to kick it, and he willed himself to make the ball go there. He would practice this at training, and would be disgusted with himself if he wasn't at least 9/10 x accurate. Technique and determination and hard work. Otherwise, nobody would have any hope of improving which is non-sensical. But that is not replying to the OP's question about improvement after 19-20.
Some replies to this thread seem to suggest that it is still possible to practice and improve, e.g. Andrew Swallow/ Enright.

 

[Vdubs]

It's easier to 'un-teach' bad habits off a low base than a long one.

I will qualify my statements that it can be done, with the direction that my footy club has taken in the past that we are only interested in blokes who can kick with efficiency.

Although that is not a guarantee of getting your way to Hawthorn, it certainly helps, unless you are outstanding at another discipline of the game.

There is no doubt that Hawthorn has the best collection of good kicks, enviable really, and what proportion are left footers? Makes them even more desirable.

 

[Blessed]

I agree that if a 5yo kid is an elite kick, he will probably continue to excel in kicking as a draftee.

Will never forget a conversation with Paul Couch during an interview on this very topic, and he said it was ALL in the mind.

So you agree with me, except for players with paranormal mental skills who use the force to will the ball to their team mates. Luke Skywalker would win 3 Brownlows then.

 

[Vdubs]

So you agree with me, except for players with paranormal mental skills who use the force to will the ball to their team mates. Luke Skywalker would win 3 Brownlows then.

Wow, you are some scribe. No, overall, do not agree, but very good paraphrasing.

 

[Blessed]

Mate, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Paul Couch can "will" the result every time he kicks. I "will" the tattslotto results every Saturday night. But the reason Paul Couch was successful was his technique with the ball drop and the fluent follow through of his foot. He can think he is influencing the result by mind power but; if he doesn't complete the physical part of it, he would be as successful as me willing the tattslotto numbers to come up.

 

[Vdubs]

Mate, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Paul Couch can "will" the result every time he kicks. I "will" the tattslotto results every Saturday night. But the reason Paul Couch was successful was his technique with the ball drop and the fluent follow through of his foot. He can think he is influencing the result by mind power but; if he doesn't complete the physical part of it, he would be as successful as me willing the tattslotto numbers to come up.

Essentially true with Couchy's technique, but he said this in response to a question on errant kicking and what made him the elite exponent. There is a role for the mind, and sports psychologists have a role, albeit minor, and your tattslotto argument I'll accept as a pisstake. This is not my opinion, btw, but it could be worth considering, anyway, how many "yippers" have we read about who have had benefits consistently from these techniques. It's not all about being gifted at 5yo. Look at Cam Mooney. A beautiful kick around the ground, seriously gifted and skilled with long and short passes, Riewoldt too, but in front of goal??/ Unreliable at best.

 

[Thats Wright]

Interesting thread for a North supporter, having had a blotch of poor users over the last decade. Rawlings kicking probably got worse over his career, similar to Lindsay Thomas kicking 0.5 on debut then 21.36 last year without counting up to 20 sprays. Swallow has improved his concentration and remains an average kick with ability to focus extremely well given the time.

Very rare situation to improve dramatically like Swallow's goal kicking and players without a lot going on upstairs like Hansen and Thomas will likely stay unreliable disposers of the ball beyond 30 meters. Players that are overall poor kicks often have 1 kicking feature that enables them to fly under the radar, (Rawlings excluded) Hansen great chipper for a big guy, Thomas extra yards from wide arc and big rear, Obst carries large weights up hills, Simpson all knowing heart.

North slowly becoming kicking liability free certainly points to the importance in the AFL to retain possession from defense by hitting targets and above all, convert close to a 3rd of inside 50's. Players without at least an individual conversion of 50% build pressure on other forwards and midfields and are the antithesis of a what a great team is, a well oiled, talented side with flair that plays the percentages most of the time, to ensure they stand up in final quarters, find extra gears or in North's case, any big game, season defining game, final etc. Recent North are a great example of using players that at the end of the day can't get the job done in 'football'.

 

[old55]

There's two aspects to performing a skill - the fundamental technique and performing that technique in match pressure.

It's definitely possible to improve a fundamental skill through your 20s. I significantly improved my skills in my professional sport (skiing) in that age period, but it took a lot of practice and skiing is a sport that is relatively easy to practice repetitions. I wasn't ski racer so "pressure match conditions" were less relevant.

Golfers can improve in that age period too because it's relatively easy to train the mechanics, but it's more difficult to simulate match pressure.

Footballers could similarly improve their kicking if they could practice enough - but with OP concerns and the difficulty in simulating match pressure it may be very difficulty to achieve sufficient meaningful repetitions.

I found it much harder to improve my surfing to a similar level (miles off pro standard) because it is much harder to create a repetitive training pattern.

 

[biggiemediums]

man, the world of classical piano (or any instrument, really...) is very interesting. there was a guy called dreyschock in the mid 1800s who practiced 16 hours a day on just his left hand, apparently. also travelled everywhere with a dummy keyboard around his neck. basically when the guy was awake, he was playing piano.

and he isnt even remembered as a 'great' of the instrument. he played the revolutionary etudes by chopin with octaves (playing, say, two C's at once with the little finger and thumb, 7 keys apart) in the left hand, in tempo. this was a piece which was demanding to play in single notes.

there was also a greek guy called dimitri sgouros who was the head professor of piano at the university of vienna at the age of 10!

it is a fascinating field, but anyone who is the best at the world at what they do will show remarkable abilties at a very young age.

there is a reason a lot of these classical musicians were drunks, womanisers, insane etc (look at michael jackson, as well) because they never had a childhood. all they did was music.

you can work damn hard at anything, and you will become good at it, but unless you are born with a certain indefinable something, becoming one of the worlds best will be forever out of your reach.

i hope your comment above wasnt sarcastic, or im going to look like a right fool...

Not sarcastic at all mate, that all is really damn interesting! Becoming a professor of music at 10 years old?! Shit, I didn't even realise what a penis was until I was 12 haha.

 

[Zurs]

If this topic interests you, read the book "Talent is overrated - what really separates world class performers from everbody else" By Geoff Colvin. Great read and demonstrates how elite skills are learnt. Broadly the environment, skill of the teacher and repetition (often but not necessarily from a young age) are the keys, some very interesting examples and studies. Quite inspiring that you can learn skills and become very good in many things later in life (even if you thought you didn't have 'natural talent') - if learnt and practised correctly!

 

[The Teacher]

You will get better, but being good often doesn't cut it in today's comps, particularly those players that virtually have no non-dominant side to their game.

Dicko

 

[yaco55]

There's two aspects to performing a skill - the fundamental technique and performing that technique in match pressure.

It's definitely possible to improve a fundamental skill through your 20s. I significantly improved my skills in my professional sport (skiing) in that age period, but it took a lot of practice and skiing is a sport that is relatively easy to practice repetitions. I wasn't ski racer so "pressure match conditions" were less relevant.

Golfers can improve in that age period too because it's relatively easy to train the mechanics, but it's more difficult to simulate match pressure.

Footballers could similarly improve their kicking if they could practice enough - but with OP concerns and the difficulty in simulating match pressure it may be very difficulty to achieve sufficient meaningful repetitions.

I found it much harder to improve my surfing to a similar level (miles off pro standard) because it is much harder to create a repetitive training pattern.

Like this post.

Probably find that 90% of good kicks at Junior level continue this level to the AFL - For some reason a very small percentage of good kicks at Junior Level lose this ability at AFL level.

 

[AFLOnline]

I'd say kicking comes very naturally, although players like Watson, Swan and Swallow have improved greatly, players like Jones, Gram, Gilbert and Raph haven't

 

[Faz 2000]

I think decision-making in AFL and kicking skill blur together to a huge degree.

A guy who I regularly lose my rag over is Andrew Carrazzo. Now, here's a guy who isn't a great kick... but he's not *awful*. He can slot goals on the run reasonably well, etc. But his decision-making drives me nuts, because he often attempts a kick he CANNOT do. Eg. A 55m kick OVER the opposition to a player running away from him. Yeh, it would be the right kick if he could kick that far, but he can't, do it turns into a flat-out clanger.

The earlier examples of guys like Andrew Swallow who maybe aren't great kicks, but have refined their decision-making to the degree that they pick the right option is a good one. He might not be a *great* kick, but it's effective.

Another example that's often talked about is Judd. Judd's kicking, again, is not particularly good. But his decision-making is excellent, so his ability to very quickly win a ball, get clear, and put it to the advantage of a teammate is exceptional, even if his physical kicking is not great.

Then you have jerks like Luke Hodge who can not only win it and make the right decision, but hit a fly from 60m!