Is Choco the first coach to admit his team is actually tanking?

[Stereophonic]

Port think tanks

Michelangelo Rucci | August 12, 2008 12:00am

PORT Adelaide coach Mark Williams yesterday added fuel to the tanking debate by saying he is no longer picking the Power's best 22.

And Williams revealed his players are struggling for motivation to win games with finals now out of the question.
Port, 14th on the ladder, could win its three remaining games - against Collingwood, Melbourne and the Kangaroos - and finish 12th.
But by tanking, the Power could drop to 15th and claim the second pick in November's rich national draft.
Asked if he wanted to finish 12th or get a top-three draft pick, Williams said: "I'm not sure."
He added: "We're going to play three games as hard as we can and try to win them all."

But the agenda to win at Port Adelaide is now clearly compromised by a chance to get the best talent in the draft.
Williams did not hide his tanking philosophy yesterday.
"We're going to pick for our future," he said when asked how Port could be playing to win if it was not selecting its best 22. "I've maintained that for a fair time now. And that is what I am doing."
It is not the first time Port has conceded a season - in essence tanked - to prepare for a new season.
"In 2006, it was fairly similar," Williams said.
"People can see what occurred. We made similar decisions, sending people off to surgery and we put a lot of young players in and gave them opportunity.
"It held us in good stead for the following year and that's exactly what we are doing now.

"A lot of people won't like it. But it is the tough decisions that us at the leadership end of the club have to make for the good of the club."
The tanking debate was one of many notable points in a tense 10-minute press conference yesterday.
Williams' admission that his players are struggling for motivation brings into question why he called an early end to Port's season. It was at Round 13, after the Power lost to Richmond at home to fall to a 4-9 win-loss ratio, that Williams conceded the season.
"We did the right thing and the best thing for our club moving forward," he said.

"As bad as it might seem the No. 1 thing we have to consider is the good and the life and the continuity of the club.
"You make decisions from the long term rather than short term."
Williams says motivation in AFL is based on playing in finals.
"You can't manufacture anything more than that," he said

Most teams at least try to save face in this situation but is Choco actually making a mockery of the AFL and the draft system?

 

[MarkT]

To all those that think tanking is just about early PPs – you are deluded. The draft order encourages losing. That is fundamentally wrong. Anyone who thinks being soft on player misbehaviour is damaging to a club but doesn’t see how encouraging losing and not rewarding winning harms a competition is perfectly fit to run the AFL. Actually that isn’t really correct. They know it all they just rank competition engineering as primary.

I’ll say one thing for Choco, he won’t worry about what AD and co think of him or how much he upsets their apple cart. I hope he lets a few lines rip along the way.

 

[Cap]

I'm not sure he said he is tanking

what he said was that he is picking teams he expects to win but if they don't its no biggy.

I would have thought the fact that he wants to rebuild a list that he rebuilt two years ago in way more concerning.

 

[Stereophonic]

yes, well it certainly could make for entertaining viewing - but that is the choco way.

In all honesty I dont mind coaches with a bit of character, as opposed to the ones who tell you stuff all and just hide behind countless footy cliches.

I wouldnt think that any other club would be as open about it as PA.

 

[Uhumagoo]

I thought tanking is actually wanting and trying to lose. Williams can select a bunch of kids, but if the intention is to lose, does that mean he will actually be upset if they come out and smash Collingwood. I don't believe a professional coach would think like that. All reference to tanking in that article seems like editorial licence.

 

[Stereophonic]

I'm not sure he said he is tanking

what he said was that he is picking teams he expects to win but if they don't its no biggy.

I would have thought the fact that he wants to rebuild a list that he rebuilt two years ago in way more concerning.

Exactly, Id be concerned if my team was bottom 4, Grand finalists, then bottom 4 again. I mean seriously, did PA just play above themselves last year or was the competition weaker?

 

[Demonheart]

William's is just voicing what is a common practice in the AFL, good on him for being honest.

 

[jackster83]

The tripe they served up against Carlton certainly suggested that they are tanking. Choco would have to be the most poorly performed coach this season.

 

[magtrev]

They led a charmed life, continually winning close games against teams that had their best players out at the end of the season. West Coast got crippled by injury and fell over, and then the Kangaroos forgot to turn up to the prelim.

They did well to get to the granny, but they got an incredibly soft run there.

 

[robertg22]

Exactly, Id be concerned if my team was bottom 4, Grand finalists, then bottom 4 again. I mean seriously, did PA just play above themselves last year or was the competition weaker?

I think it just further demonstrates the gap between Geelong and the rest of the field. This year Hawthorn has closed the gap slightly but the teams from 3-12 on the ladder are not that far apart really. Given a bit of luck during the year any of those teams could be a chance for a decent spot in the finals, in Port's case if it had started the year better and been a little luckier with injuries you never know what could have eventuated.

 

[TedDougChris]

This is where the tanking debate becomes confused. He's trying to prepare for next year, give some experience to the kids and try a few things.

Does this reduce his chances of winning - YES.
Is it deliberately trying to lose - NO.

All he's trying to do is give his football club the best chance of success. In a similar way, the decision by Collingwood not to sack Didak is like this. It gives them the best chance of getting a better deal for him at the end of the year.... All he's trying to do is make the best of a bad situation and hopefully next year will be different...

But it does send mixed messages....

 

[bring it on!]

I'm not sure he said he is tanking

what he said was that he is picking teams he expects to win but if they don't its no biggy.

I would have thought the fact that he wants to rebuild a list that he rebuilt two years ago in way more concerning.

Absolutely and what a joke of a club, to make the GF last year and to be where they are now, questions need to be asked.

 

[Beckers]

This is where the tanking debate becomes confused. He's trying to prepare for next year, give some experience to the kids and try a few things.

Does this reduce his chances of winning - YES.
Is it deliberately trying to lose - NO.

All he's trying to do is give his football club the best chance of success. In a similar way, the decision by Collingwood not to sack Didak is like this. It gives them the best chance of getting a better deal for him at the end of the year.... All he's trying to do is make the best of a bad situation and hopefully next year will be different...

But it does send mixed messages....

What is wrong with you people? Are you slow, confused or just an eternal optimist?

IF you are NOT trying 100% to WIN every game for whatever reason, it is TANKING!

 

[Beckers]

Who is saying that they didnt know tanking was taking place?

We are discussing the fact that Choco has basically admitted that it takes place and that the system is a farce in this way.

Good on him for admitting it, but whether he di or not, there are still the sceptics out there who have their blinkers on and believe Vlad Dimitriou that tanking does NOT exist. See TedDougChris' post above for an example!

 

[Stereophonic]

What is wrong with you people? Are you slow, confused or just an eternal optimist?

IF you are NOT trying 100% to WIN every game for whatever reason, it is TANKING!

So what you are saying then is if a team, for example the Kangaroos 3 years ago, lets say an average team going no where, just outside the eight, not necessarily caring about draft picks, decides it is time to get kids in the mix and throws in 2 first gamers, and then the following week throws in another.

The team is in no way concerned about next years draft, it feels these 3 kids can add to the team, and decides that they have to play sooner or later, whether that be to the detriment of that teams success that season is TANKING?, yeah right

THAT is why the line is blurred when it comes to whether or not a team is TANKING

 

[Stereophonic]

Good on him for admitting it, but whether he di or not, there are still the sceptics out there who have their blinkers on and believe Vlad Dimitriou that tanking does NOT exist. See TedDougChris' post above for an example!

I know

But i think there is tanking, and then there is tanking, if you know what I mean

 

[celtic_pride]

I'm amazed by the sheer hypocrisy of it all ...

What Carlton did last year, we were slammed from pillar to post (and we never publicly admitted it either) whereas Mark Williams has all but admitted that winning isn't really high on Port's agenda, and the Power want to improve their 'draft position' ...

I fail to see the difference, in fact what Port/Mark Williams has said is worse then anything said last year by Carlton.

 

[gaelictiogar]

I thought tanking is actually wanting and trying to lose. Williams can select a bunch of kids, but if the intention is to lose, does that mean he will actually be upset if they come out and smash Collingwood. I don't believe a professional coach would think like that. All reference to tanking in that article seems like editorial licence.

Ever hear of reading between the lines?

"We are thinking about our future".....could he make it any clearer without coming out and sayng he wasn't exactly all out to win V the pies?

There is a bigger reward for finishing 15th or 16th than 11th or 12th. Clearly clubs will think logically and go for the prize. Tanking is epidemic is AFL because people chase prizes.

 

[captain ebert]

IF you are NOT trying 100% to WIN every game for whatever reason, it is TANKING!

choco knows that playing youth with an eye to the future may cause a few losses along the way, however at this stage of the season he is obliged to take this approach, as you do want younger players to have more games under their belt, as quickly as possible & you want to try new things - with an eye to the future.

our season is over & his approach makes sense - injured players off to surgery & recuperation, younger players get exposure - if it results in a better draft pick, so be it, bonus, but its the nature of the stupid system that is in place.

but in fact, its a win-win situation choco

 

[gaelictiogar]

I'm amazed by the sheer hypocrisy of it all ...

What Carlton did last year, we were slammed from pillar to post (and we never publicly admitted it either) whereas Mark Williams has all but admitted that winning isn't really high on Port's agenda, and the Power want to improve their 'draft position' ...

I fail to see the difference, in fact what Port/Mark Williams has said is worse then anything said last year by Carlton.

Port are only an expansion team no one in Victoria really bothers with whereas what Carlton were doing was fatally damaging the reputation of what was prior to the obvious tank arguably the greatest club in the game.

There is a difference.

 

[Stereophonic]

Its also clearly good for teams in the top 4, because if you are coming up against bottom 6 sides that are 'tanking' then it is a gimme to boost your percentage, and for an interstate team, can mean getting 2 home finals and stright into the big one, thank you very much.

As soon as the AFL works out some sort of 'solution' the better

 

[TedDougChris]

What is wrong with you people? Are you slow, confused or just an eternal optimist?

IF you are NOT trying 100% to WIN every game for whatever reason, it is TANKING!

So preparation for next year, or further development of players is now considered tanking...

So it's ok to compromise next seasons form to continue to play people with injuries, preventing them from getting proper recovery periods or reducing the amount of pre-season work they can get through.

Look at the Dogs last year. Players like Cooney, Griffen etc had short pre-seasons and weren't able to carry the load for the whole year. So if we're 13th, can't make the finals, we should continue to flog our injured potential superstars, reducing their effectiveness for the following year in a futile effort to finish 12th ??

It doesn't make sense. I agree that the system is flawed, but what the clubs are doing is what any well-run sporting team should do in these circumstances. Accept your losses and move on. Begin planning for next year.

 

[captain ebert]

As soon as the AFL works out some sort of 'solution' the better

a draft pick lottery for the bottom placed sides.

 

[celtic_pride]

Port are only an expansion team no one in Victoria really bothers with whereas what Carlton were doing was fatally damaging the reputation of what was prior to the obvious tank arguably the greatest club in the game.

There is a difference.

I disagree ...

Carlton had been on the bottom of the ladder (or thereabouts) in the last 5 or 6 seasons, whereas Port Adelaide made a GF last year ..

Put in Carlton's possie last year, would you have wanted Richmond to win another game if meant costing you another high draft pick and a chance to trade for one of the game's biggest players (Chris Judd)

I think now it's obvious that Carlton 'tanked', not for Matty Kruezer (whom is also a gun btw) but Chris Judd (apparently there was talks with his manager in june last year about Juddy wanting to leave West Coast) ...

 

[Stereophonic]

So preparation for next year, or further development of players is now considered tanking...

Look at the Dogs last year. Players like Cooney, Griffen etc had short pre-seasons and weren't able to carry the load for the whole year. So if we're 13th, can't make the finals, we should continue to flog our injured potential superstars, reducing their effectiveness for the following year in a futile effort to finish 12th ??

Excellent point, that is player management, and I really dont think Rodney Eade (from the club, and for the safety of his position) was really thinking about draft picks this time last year. He accepted that his club had a bad year and had confidence that his team was a top 4 side.