Opinion Is Our Flag Window Shut?

[Bluelegs]

My general vibe from this year has been that we're clearly trying to fix our ball movement add things to our midfield but the progress is a bit slow and we haven't really clicked yet. When under pressure we've fallen apart badly and fallen into old habits.

I'm desperate to see the backs of Melksham, Tmac and Brown. It feels like that's where we're headed with Petty going forward and JVR in but injuries of Gawn and Lever means you've got to use your depth. I do think it's been too long since a lot of our senior guys felt the pressure of selection and complacency has set in as a result so I'd like to see a shake up. We've already had a few young guys come into the side this year so it's not like it's out of the question.

I'm not going to slit my wrists at 3-2. Richmond got smashed in several games in the first half of 2019 and we all know how that turned out.

 

[Topkent]

Why? The whole post is about form at/away from the MCG.

Yes, we were playing against Essendon and they weren't playing at home either, but we weren't at the G, the place where we will play our home finals if we get them and the grand final if we make it.

Your ability to nitpick the wrong parts of the post to try and make a point is outstanding

"TKs always starting shit"

Pretty reasonable to point out we played a vic side away from home.

StEdy still freaks out

Ok

 

[Simon_Says]

We're very much like "Forrests Box of Chocolates"
If we're not relying on Lever, Max, Clayton and Track it's hard to see us winning.
Very game to game inconsistent. That's all

 

[danster168]

Yaah this a real concern hey. We played s**t in the first qtr against Essendon but had a lead, I wonder if the players just assumed we’d click when we needed too, subconciously even, bit of cruise control.

Fingers crossed its a leadership issue which Lever and Gawn address when they’re back.

To be honest, I'm getting a bit sick and tired of talking about the outs. Stkilda have half of their best team out and are playing with more spirit than we have shown this season, and all of last season.

I'm not sure what causes terrible efforts like against Brisbane and Essendon but it's gotta be cultural.

 

[Johnny Karate]

To be honest, I'm getting a bit sick and tired of talking about the outs. Stkilda have half of their best team out and are playing with more spirit than we have shown this season, and all of last season.

I'm not sure what causes terrible efforts like against Brisbane and Essendon but it's gotta be cultural.

Even towards the end of last year with players carrying injuries, I felt a bit too much was made of that.

You can’t rely on having a charmed run like 2021 all the time with fitness. Also once you cross the line you’re right to go and need to perform, injured or not.

That Zerk-Thatcher kid for Essendon looked to have copped a foot injury early in the game on Saturday, yet he played really well. Hell, Steven May played the GF with a torn hamstring and did a good job. Petracca was in the best against the Lions in the Semi and he had a corked calf/stress fracture.

Yes, you definitely need your superstars fit and firing but I’d wager we weren’t as hungry last year (as we were in 21) and some of the performances this year would suggest we’re not mentally switched on.

 

[Major Colvin]

To be honest, I'm getting a bit sick and tired of talking about the outs. Stkilda have half of their best team out and are playing with more spirit than we have shown this season, and all of last season.

I'm not sure what causes terrible efforts like against Brisbane and Essendon but it's gotta be cultural.

Yes, it's very concerning that the outs seem to have such a major impact on how we play. We were lucky to be injury free in 2021, but almost every premiership team encounters injuries to important players through the season and up until the Grand Final. If we're a team that falls to pieces without Jake Lever, then we aren't a team at all.

Moreover, I obviously don't think our flag window is shut but the way we're going about it currently, we're going to miss a golden opportunity for multiple premierships. How often is a club lucky enough to have assembled the talent we have? For us its taken a good 50 years and it would be an absolute insult to everyone that helped pull the club back from the brink (multiple times) to just rest on the laurels of one premiership and go off into the wilderness again.

I obviously appreciate Simon Goodwin's key role in delivering that drought breaking premiership, but if he's unable to at least take this list to another Grand Final this year - he's clearly under-delivering with one of the best lists in the competition.

I'm very wary that we don't want to become like the Bulldogs under Luke Beveridge i.e. giving too much future leeway because the coach has delivered a premiership. The reality is that they need to keep delivering, or the club will have a duty to find another coach that can.

 

[dazzledavey36]

It's not shut but I don't think we're in the rush to fully open it.

The biggest concern for me is the lack of Improvement from some of the younger players who featured in the premiership and also the huge drop of form in some of the more experience players.

Sparrow is a very limited player and adds zero value to the team other then crash into the odd pack here and there. He's not even a ball winner and struggles to get even into the early 20's in terms of possessions.

Bowey has looked shakey this year. Have always said he's best position imo would be a high half forward/wing because he's got the speed and kicking efficiency to really help our forward connection.

Jordon has dropped off and it's clear now Goodwin doesn't rate him highly.

Rivers has looked good at times this year so am hoping he continues to improve.

There's also clear lack of midfield depth coming through. After Petracca a d Oliver there's a significant gap to who's coming through the ranks that can step up in a few years time when they're starting to drop off. This needs to be a top priority come draft time.

Goody's continued faith in the likes of McDonald, Melksham and Tomlinson while also neglecting the time being put into the likes of Laurie, Turner and even Howes who have all been playing good consistent football at VFL this year. Not only that, we need the next wave of talent get given the opportunity to phase these guys out.

Brayshaw has been incredibly poor since he signed his big contract.

Petty has gone backwards.

Harmes another who's gone backwards. If he's not tagging he isn't much chop at all.

What this year has shown this year is that there are no easy beats. Need to start respecting teams and not just think we'll show up to get the job done. The loss to Essendon on the weekend showed the mentality of the players mindset.

 

[Topkent]

That's the thing though every team does this, they point to young players in a flag side and assume they will all improve. They get carried by the stars. Until our star group of players dominate every week the guys around the fringes will struggle again.

 

[Johnny Karate]

That's the thing though every team does this, they point to young players in a flag side and assume they will all improve. They get carried by the stars. Until our star group of players dominate every week the guys around the fringes will struggle again.

Happens in all sports.

How did the Bulls go when they blew up the team of the 90s and all the stars left?

It’s a bit like if a cricket team has all their gun bats fail and expecting a ton from your handy number 7 or 8. Or if the front line bowlers get slapped, expecting your part-time gentle off spinner to take 7 and go at 2 an over.

 

[Topkent]

Happens in all sports.

How did the Bulls go when they blew up the team of the 90s and all the stars left?

It’s a bit like if a cricket team has all their gun bats fail and expecting a ton from your handy number 7 or 8. Or if the front line bowlers get slapped, expecting your part-time gentle off spinner to take 7 and go at 2 an over.

Yet there's still people posting on here who think our guns aren't the issue and instead we need Sparrow and Bowey to play better to help us beat Essendon

 

[jhong]

Coach obviously thinks the window is still open , I think its closing but not quite shut yet . If Goodwin keeps recycling players like Thommo , T-Mac , Melk and others we will be seen to still be basking in 2021 , and some serious questions need to be asked of the coach.

 

[dazzledavey36]

Yet there's still people posting on here who think our guns aren't the issue and instead we need Sparrow and Bowey to play better to help us beat Essendon

When Oliver is getting tagged on the weekend this where I expect someone like Sparrow to stand up and take a bit responsibility and leadership. I don't expect this each week but even just a game where's he's able to stand up and actually do something for once.

Petracca to me seems a bit off this year. Just feel like he's not breaking the games open like he did back in 2021.

I'll give kudos to someone like Jake Lever who would be leading our BnF so far this year. But then it shouldnt take Lever to miss a game for May to have a stinker. That was horrendous performance from a guys who's much better than that.

Don't worry, our guns shouldn't be let off so easy.

 

[Johnny Karate]

Yet there's still people posting on here who think our guns aren't the issue and instead we need Sparrow and Bowey to play better to help us beat Essendon

The next time Sparrow and Bowey play well, some or all of the following events will happen: Gawn will be back and taking big marks at both ends of the ground; Lever and May will be running the defence making oppo sides look silly; Petracca and Oliver will have 25 or so effective touches each with 4 goals between them and a ton of score involvements as well as putting on pressure and tracking back defensively when we don’t have the ball.

Van Rooyen will also likely kick 4+ if the above happens and we will toast James Jordon’s breakout game.

 

[Toump Ass]

A nice run of form, like 4 weeks or something where we win games well would help restore the faith a bit.

The Sydney win was good, West Coast as expected, but then to drop Essendon after that feels a bit like last year, we'd have a big stirring win then just phone it in the week after, consistency of effort was gone, players having mares, even the coaches seem to have fluffed it a bit with selection.

Want some of that sweet "momentum" we were rabbiting on about for a while.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

A nice run of form, like 4 weeks or something where we win games well would help restore the faith a bit.

Its not really about winning, its how we do it, remember last week when I bitch and moaned all thru the win against West Coast. We went to a new level of garbage this week but the signs were there the week before.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Its just so disappointing what we have been the past two weeks when the answer on how we should play and look as a lineup was there 2 weeks ago against Sydney once Brown was subbed out. Goody was given the correct answer and for some reason still went back to something that has been wrong for a year now. Truly baffling.

 

[LarryDavidNeitz]

It’s not going to happen in 1-2 weeks but I reckon we have the personnel to be able to release some of our youngsters with good skills further up the ground.

If we can get Turner established in the backline and Hibbo back to fitness, I think it would be good to see Rivers more permanently in the midfield and Bowey and McVee getting spells further up the ground.

We’re wasting spots on the likes of Sparrow and Melk while Bowey is one of our best ball users but stuck playing defensive roles he’s not really suited to. Get him up the ground and use his assets better. He could do some damage playing high half forward and delivering the ball inside 50 more often.

 

[danster168]

It's games like this that make me the sceptical supporter that I don't wish to be. Like we're premiership favourites and you still can't trust which Melbourne is going to rock up. I know our best is top 2. Our worst is probably about 12-14th standard.

I can handle inconsistency of outcome but if it's due to lack of effort then it's unacceptable.

 

[LarryDavidNeitz]

It's absolutely nuts that we're $5 for the flag and Collingwood are $4.50. If we have a mediocre win against Richmond next week we'll probably be on top again and it might be time for a decent bet on the pies for the flag.

 

[JP2]

I think this thread is a bit reactive off what was probably our worst performance for at least 3 years. I understand where the concerns are coming from, and I share some of them myself, but I'll put forward the optimistic case just to balance out some of the doom on here.

Firstly, projecting our formline back into last season is silly. Geelong supporters wouldn't be rating their team as premiership favourites now on the basis of their having won their last 16 games of last season, and I think the problems we faced last year aren't necessarily applicable this year. For starters, we looked fatigued last year, even when we were winning, and we often got overrun in the second halves of games. This year, if anything, we're closing out games much better than we're starting them. Last year, we were playing a slow, grindy and very predictable style of football, whereas this year it's clear that we're attempting to play a much more aggressive, free-flowing style. Such a change in style can take time to learn, and so it stands to reason that we're going to have games like Saturday while players are getting used to their new defensive duties. It might look like they're not putting in the effort defensively, but it may be more that they're still finding their feet in striking the right balance between attack and defence. We all called for a change in game style after last season, and we might just be witnessing the birth pangs of that right now. (Remember: Geelong started 5-4 with their new attacking style last year, dropping some really poor and unconvincing games in that stretch.)

I think guys like McDonald, Tomlinson and Melksham are on borrowed time, but each of them have shown glimpses of form this year which justified their selection Saturday, and Goodwin has shown that he's prepared to drop each of them when they're not performing (I'd even say Tomlinson was unlucky to be dropped after round 2). I'd be disappointed if they aren't replaced later in the season, and I'd like to see guys like Turner and Howes get a chance at some point in the year, but their selection has hardly been without basis. Goodwin's also shown a willingness to run more guys through the midfield, another adjustment that might take time to bear fruit as they learn to consistently do what is expected of them. We've also had to make adjustments around the absence of May, Gawn, and Lever this year - all important players in terms of structure - which doesn't come easily. Of course, we shouldn't be so dependent on particular players, but that's why it's good to learn how to play without them now rather than at the end of the year. And some players are out of form at the moment, which might be cause for concern, but the optimistic flipside of that is that even with the injuries and out-of-form players, we still managed big wins against the Dogs and Sydney, which has to count for something.

I'd also stop over-romanticising our form in the premiership year. Yes, we always played with heart and effort in that year, and no that wasn't on display vs. Essendon, but we also showed some pretty iffy and streaky form during that year too. Honestly, take a look at our games from Queen's birthday until the finals, and tell me in which of those games we stood out as overwhelming premiership favourites? Seeing our game plan effortlessly picked apart by Collingwood, Hawthorn and GWS of all teams? Being fairly comprehensively beaten by premiership contenders in the Bulldogs? Being 44 points down against Geelong, before they inexplicably stopped trying to score? If we're being honest with ourselves, if Mitch Hannan kdoes anything else with that free-kick than to handball directly at Bailey Dale

31

Bailey Dale

Age

28

Ht

188cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.2

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

1.6

4star

MG

117.4

2star

D

9.0

2star

K

5.1

2star

HB

3.9

3star

M

2.3

2star

T

1.7

3star

MG

117.4

2star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.4

2star

T

2.0

4star

's feet, then we might have lost the grand final too. Every premiership team has shit moments, most of them many times during a season. We just had one against Essendon, but writing us off on the back of that would be as stupid as proclaiming us premiership favourites on the back of the win against Sydney. Which game represents the real 2023 Melbourne and which one was a fluke? We're probably not gonna know that for a few months.

 

[Fork n Hell]

 

[Crusty Demon]

Not shut but more teams windows are opening or about to open. It's gonna be incredibly difficult to win another one in the coming years.

 

[Topkent]

I think this thread is a bit reactive off what was probably our worst performance for at least 3 years. I understand where the concerns are coming from, and I share some of them myself, but I'll put forward the optimistic case just to balance out some of the doom on here.

Firstly, projecting our formline back into last season is silly. Geelong supporters wouldn't be rating their team as premiership favourites now on the basis of their having won their last 16 games of last season, and I think the problems we faced last year aren't necessarily applicable this year. For starters, we looked fatigued last year, even when we were winning, and we often got overrun in the second halves of games. This year, if anything, we're closing out games much better than we're starting them. Last year, we were playing a slow, grindy and very predictable style of football, whereas this year it's clear that we're attempting to play a much more aggressive, free-flowing style. Such a change in style can take time to learn, and so it stands to reason that we're going to have games like Saturday while players are getting used to their new defensive duties. It might look like they're not putting in the effort defensively, but it may be more that they're still finding their feet in striking the right balance between attack and defence. We all called for a change in game style after last season, and we might just be witnessing the birth pangs of that right now. (Remember: Geelong started 5-4 with their new attacking style last year, dropping some really poor and unconvincing games in that stretch.)

I think guys like McDonald, Tomlinson and Melksham are on borrowed time, but each of them have shown glimpses of form this year which justified their selection Saturday, and Goodwin has shown that he's prepared to drop each of them when they're not performing (I'd even say Tomlinson was unlucky to be dropped after round 2). I'd be disappointed if they aren't replaced later in the season, and I'd like to see guys like Turner and Howes get a chance at some point in the year, but their selection has hardly been without basis. Goodwin's also shown a willingness to run more guys through the midfield, another adjustment that might take time to bear fruit as they learn to consistently do what is expected of them. We've also had to make adjustments around the absence of May, Gawn, and Lever this year - all important players in terms of structure - which doesn't come easily. Of course, we shouldn't be so dependent on particular players, but that's why it's good to learn how to play without them now rather than at the end of the year. And some players are out of form at the moment, which might be cause for concern, but the optimistic flipside of that is that even with the injuries and out-of-form players, we still managed big wins against the Dogs and Sydney, which has to count for something.

I'd also stop over-romanticising our form in the premiership year. Yes, we always played with heart and effort in that year, and no that wasn't on display vs. Essendon, but we also showed some pretty iffy and streaky form during that year too. Honestly, take a look at our games from Queen's birthday until the finals, and tell me in which of those games we stood out as overwhelming premiership favourites? Seeing our game plan effortlessly picked apart by Collingwood, Hawthorn and GWS of all teams? Being fairly comprehensively beaten by premiership contenders in the Bulldogs? Being 44 points down against Geelong, before they inexplicably stopped trying to score? If we're being honest with ourselves, if Mitch Hannan kdoes anything else with that free-kick than to handball directly at Bailey Dale's feet, then we might have lost the grand final too. Every premiership team has s**t moments, most of them many times during a season. We just had one against Essendon, but writing us off on the back of that would be as stupid as proclaiming us premiership favourites on the back of the win against Sydney. Which game represents the real 2023 Melbourne and which one was a fluke? We're probably not gonna know that for a few months.

I'm fine with the positivity here and most of your points are sound, but can't say we've had our worst game for years 3 weeks after our worst game for years. Think we were actually better against Essendon than we were Brisbane

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Good post JP2 some valid points for sure.

 

[Bluelegs]

Was interesting OTC had the 'premiership window' tonight looking at attack vs defence and we're well and truly smashing it in attack but below average in defence. Obviously a small sample size but wouldn't have thought that.