It is time...

[lunacy]

I think the time has come to see what our youngsters are made of in order to make more informed decisions re list management at the end of the year.

We have too many average players who for too long have delivered meak and mild sub par performances especially when it really matters. I'm talking about guys like Reilly and Symes.

We need to;
- play Riley, Martin, Mckernen.
- continue to play Jacobs, Gunston, Petrenko, L.Thompson, Wright, Jaensch and (Walker and Smith when back from injury).
- play Otten and Talia when match fit
- and expose Sam Shaw and Lyons in 2nd half of season if fit.

I'm tired of average vanilla players like Reilly, Symes, Schmidt, Doughty (now that he probably wont be there next year).

Sure we'd be incredibly inexperienced, but we'd still have Johncock, Rutten, Van Berlo, Vince, Douglas, Tippett, Knights etc.

This year is shot and should be all about exposure for youngsters and determining the direction re list management.

I wouldn't mind if we didn't win another game if I could see a clear direction of where we were heading. Look at Gold Coast, I'm sure the losses are accepted by their supporters because they are playing lots of youngsters AND more importantly are playing exciting footy giving them great hope for next year.

IMO it's not the losses that a killing me but rather the way we are losing. We're playing boring footy and basically rolling over without any fight, without taking risks and without attempting the play bold attacking footy. Too many dour players who might put in each week but just aren't gonna take us anywhere when the heat is on (Reilly, Symes, Doughty, Schmidt).

Vince (had a good game), Douglas, VB and Knights all better pick up the slack and start playing consistent top level performances.

Let's for once look to the future by using there next 12 games to best prepare for 2012 and our next premiership (whenever that may be).

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Good thread and I do agree with you! Play our " grand final" in the next showdown, any players who may need an operation get it done now so they are right for preseason.

But, whilst there is no doubt it is the right thing for the club to do, I wonder if the coach and his assistants would be comfortable with the idea knowing there futures are on the line.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

To give some credit to Neil, he has done this before.

In 2004 he went through this process and said exactly that - we need to see which guys can play, who is worth keeping on the list and who we need to move on. His selection reflected this.

I would be very happy to see us go through the same process again.

2004 is a long time ago though. I wonder if he remembers??? Would be tougher this time - these are all 'his boys' after all.

 

[Wood_Duck]

Some would say, this is 'tanking'.

 

[cammo6556]

I think the time has come to see what our youngsters are made of in order to make more informed decisions re list management at the end of the year.

We have too many average players who for too long have delivered meak and mild sub par performances especially when it really matters. I'm talking about guys like Reilly and Symes.

We need to;
- play Riley, Martin, Mckernen.
- continue to play Jacobs, Gunston, Petrenko, L.Thompson, Wright, Jaensch and (Walker and Smith when back from injury).
- play Otten and Talia when match fit
- and expose Sam Shaw and Lyons in 2nd half of season if fit.

I'm tired of average vanilla players like Reilly, Symes, Schmidt, Doughty (now that he probably wont be there next year).

Sure we'd be incredibly inexperienced, but we'd still have Johncock, Rutten, Van Berlo, Vince, Douglas, Tippett, Knights etc.

This year is shot and should be all about exposure for youngsters and determining the direction re list management.

I wouldn't mind if we didn't win another game if I could see a clear direction of where we were heading. Look at Gold Coast, I'm sure the losses are accepted by their supporters because they are playing lots of youngsters AND more importantly are playing exciting footy giving them great hope for next year.

IMO it's not the losses that a killing me but rather the way we are losing. We're playing boring footy and basically rolling over without any fight, without taking risks and without attempting the play bold attacking footy. Too many dour players who might put in each week but just aren't gonna take us anywhere when the heat is on (Reilly, Symes, Doughty, Schmidt).

Vince (had a good game), Douglas, VB and Knights all better pick up the slack and start playing consistent top level performances.

Let's for once look to the future by using there next 12 games to best prepare for 2012 and our next premiership (whenever that may be).

Good thread. If not now, then never.

We are all becoming acclimatized to getting flogged anyway. At least with kids getting a run, there's a very indentifiable reason.

 

[Allefgib]

I'm about to start a thread on tanking based on some musings.. stay tuned.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Not only is it time, it's well overdue by at least 12 months, probably more.

Agree with the player lists in the OP, though I'd like to see Schmidt get 3 games in the midfield to see what he can do in there. I used to be a Schmidt hater and he probably is a dud but I saw a couple of decent moments from him this year to make me want to make sure he isn't up to it before we discard him.

 

[1970crow]

not having a go at neil craig here.

but the hurdle is the philosophy of selecting the best 22 players for the game. players need to earn their spot, not have it gifted at the expense of someone who deserves selection, even if it is only for that week.

so i don't think we'll see hoisting of white flags and selection policies looking towards the future. we will be concentrating on putting the best team on the park to win that game of football.

rightly or wrongly, that's how it will be. unless craig resigns before the end of the year.

 

[alwayscrowing]

I agree with the OP.
If we don't have a good look at our young (and not so young players) - over a number of weeks to see how they are able to pick up the pace of the game we will not have any idea if they are worth keeping. Unfortunately sanfl form does not always translate to the big league.
Now is the time - call it tanking if you like but it is the responsible thing for the club to do. If not we will have guys like Jericho and Jacky on our list for a number of years only to find out they were never good enough - this just speeds up the process.

 

[Vader]

What's your point? He's been doing this all year.

• Martin started off in the senior team and got dropped due to poor form. He's come good again in the last couple of weeks and probably isn't far away from senior selection again.
• Riley should get his debut this week, probably at the expense of Petrenko or Symes.
• McKernan has missed all of 1 game this year. Maybe you weren't watching?
• Otten & Talia will almost certainly get a gig sooner rather than later, as soon as they are match fit and injury free.
• Shaw needs to show a bit of durability and needs to get out of the magoos before he can be considered, but I'd hope to see him get a debut game late in the season. Not a real issue if he doesn't though, because his season has bee wrecked by injury.
• Lyons might get a game or two, just to give him a taste, but I don't think there are great expectations on him at this point in time.

There's no point in dropping the likes of Reilly, Doughty & Douglas. There's more to be gained from having them in the team, passing hard earned knowledge onto the kids around them. Besides, it's not like any of them are keeping a youngster out of the team right now. We've been fielding teams with up to 12 players in the <25 game bracket all season, those who are good enough are already getting a game.

The kids who aren't in the team are not missing out because of a lack of opportunities. They're missing out because they're out of form, injured, or lacking match fitness. The opportunities are already there, they just have to grab them.

 

[Allefgib]

I'll refer you to my tanking thread to contribute to the discusson on what it means to do your best to win a game of football....

 

[WALL-e]

I keep Dogga in to provide help for the smaller bodies and to give them an experienced head, but otherwise I'm all about it.

Play guys who'll play next year. Maybe on a rotational basis. Give them 3 weeks to get a crack, first week sub, second and third more GT, then if they earn it, keep them in. If not, more SANFL and back in que.

 

[WALL-e]

I'll refer you to my tanking thread to contribute to the discusson on what it means to do your best to win a game of football....

Pimpin your thread gangsta style...

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

What's your point? He's been doing this all year.

• Martin started off in the senior team and got dropped due to poor form. He's come good again in the last couple of weeks and probably isn't far away from senior selection again.
• Riley should get his debut this week, probably at the expense of Petrenko or Symes.
• McKernan has missed all of 1 game this year. Maybe you weren't watching?
• Otten & Talia will almost certainly get a gig sooner rather than later, as soon as they are match fit and injury free.
• Shaw needs to show a bit of durability and needs to get out of the magoos before he can be considered, but I'd hope to see him get a debut game late in the season. Not a real issue if he doesn't though, because his season has bee wrecked by injury.
• Lyons might get a game or two, just to give him a taste, but I don't think there are great expectations on him at this point in time.

There's no point in dropping the likes of Reilly, Doughty & Douglas. There's more to be gained from having them in the team, passing hard earned knowledge onto the kids around them. Besides, it's not like any of them are keeping a youngster out of the team right now. We've been fielding teams with up to 12 players in the <25 game bracket all season, those who are good enough are already getting a game.

The kids who aren't in the team are not missing out because of a lack of opportunities. They're missing out because they're out of form, injured, or lacking match fitness. The opportunities are already there, they just have to grab them.

So just carry on as is then?

 

[icrow32]

What's your point? He's been doing this all year.

There's no point in dropping the likes of Reilly, Doughty & Douglas. There's more to be gained from having them in the team, passing hard earned knowledge onto the kids around them. .

What on earth could any of these guys pass on to the young players that would be a positive? how to kick and handball backwards, squib a contest or kick a hospital ball to the forwards.

I would prefer the young players be given license to play with flair and their natural style than become clones of the players holding us back.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Gunston has shown enough to be selected for the rest of the year for mine.

He's the type of player we can get something out of for the rest of the year. Finding out if he's got what it takes.

I dont want to see Jack Gunston dropped for someone who we already know can't play.

And I dont want to see Myke Cook selected ahead of Richard Tambling. Ever. Again. Even if Tambling is on crutches.

 

[Vader]

So just carry on as is then?

Put it this way..

• We've already used 35 players this year. I'm betting Riley will make his debut this weekend, bringing the total to 36.
• Our team this season has had an average of 8 players each week with <20 games experience, averaging 9.25 per week since R4.

I don't see that there is anything to be gained by throwing the babies to the wolves, selecting a team full of kids with no adult present to supervise them.

There are plenty of things to be unhappy about with the coaching this year (game plans, midfield setups, lack of motivation, ...), but in terms of playing the kids to see what they can do? Yes, absolutely. Continue doing exactly what they have been doing thus far in 2011.

 

[Vader]

Gunston has shown enough to be selected for the rest of the year for mine.

Not even close.

He's the type of player we can get something out of for the rest of the year. Finding out if he's got what it takes.

He'll get a fair run. I'm betting he'll last for 3-4 more weeks..

I dont want to see Jack Gunston dropped for someone who we already know can't play.

If Gunston gets dropped, it will be to make way for Taylor Walker's return.

And I dont want to see Myke Cook selected ahead of Richard Tambling. Ever. Again. Even if Tambling is on crutches.

I don't want to see Myke Cook selected ever again, unless he's the last player available on our list (including all of our rookies).

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Put it this way..

• We've already used 35 players this year. I'm betting Riley will make his debut this weekend, bringing the total to 36.
• Our team this season has had an average of 8 players each week with <20 games experience, averaging 9.25 per week since R4.

One of the reasons we have played so many players is that we have been picking on form. Players are in one week, back in the SANFL soon after.

Chopping and changing week after week and throwing the team around unnecessarily isn't "seeing what the kids can do."

It actually achieves nothing.

We don't win or develop our kids.

 

[Vader]

One of the reasons we have played so many players is that we have been picking on form. Players are in one week, back in the SANFL soon after.

Chopping and changing week after week and throwing the team around unnecessarily isn't "seeing what the kids can do."

It actually achieves nothing.

We don't win or develop our kids.

Not true and you know it. There's actually been very little in the way of instability in the way of selections due to form - and most of those affected have been known quantities anyway (Petrenko, Symes, Cook).

We did this debate earlier. Turns out there were only 4 or 5 players involved and the selectors were entirely justified in making every one of those decisions.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Not true and you know it. There's actually been very little in the way of instability in the way of selections due to form - and most of those affected have been known quantities anyway (Petrenko, Symes, Cook).

We did this debate earlier. Turns out there were only 4 or 5 players involved and the selectors were entirely justified in making every one of those decisions.

No we didn't.

Cook
Gunston
Maric
Martin
McKernan
Otten
Petrenko
Schmidt
Symes
Tambling
Vince
Walker

All unforced changes. We chose to drop them. We can't make the decision to drop all these players and then say "look at how many players we've used."

And 8 players on that list would be classed as inexperienced players.

 

[A FEW GOOD MEN]

Why limit it to Doherty, Stevens, Reilly, Porplyzia, Symes and Maric.

Johncock, S Thompson and Rutten won't be part of our next premiership team.

Drop em all, we could have the best (well the only) under 25 team in the AFL.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Why limit it to Doherty.

Shannon??

 

[Vader]

No we didn't.

Cook
Gunston
Maric
Martin
McKernan
Otten
Petrenko
Schmidt
Symes
Tambling
Vince
Walker

All unforced changes. We chose to drop them. We can't make the decision to drop all these players and then say "look at how many players we've used."

And 8 players on that list would be classed as inexperienced players.

How many of those only got 1 or 2 consecutive games? Most of them had 3 or more.

Cook - Went through his record before. Came in when Davis, Stevens & Tambling were all injured in R3 and went out again when Doughty & Tambling returned the following week. His inclusion was only brought about by injury to better players. Was selected again in R9 and stank so badly that the selectors had no choice but to drop him like a hot potato.
Gunston - Is now in his 2nd stint. He is nothing more than a seat warmer for Taylor Walker. Gaining selection by default, not by virtue of good SANFL form.
Maric - Was given the entire pre-season + 3 H&A games to show some form, but he had completely lost confidence in himself. Has only started to regain confidence, even at SANFL level, in the last week or two.
Martin - Had 4 consecutive games from R3-6 and failed to impress in any of them. Was sent back to the SANFL where he's only beginning to come into some good form now.
McKernan - Has played 9 of our 10 games this year, before being given a well earned rest in the SANFL. WTF were you thinking when you included him on your list?
Otten - Played well in the first lightning carnival game of the MMC, then played possum until being dropped after R5. Even so, he was given 4 H&A games to find some form. His problems are injury related. Like McKernan he doesn't belong on your list.
Petrenko - Gifted a game in R7 as Tambling's seat warmer (Tambling was MIA due to suspension), dropped as soon as Tambling returned. Bling's form collapsed and Petrenko's been the incumbent ever since. Looks to me like we have 2 players competing for 1 position. What's wrong with that?
Schmidt - Played 13 games last year, so he's now very much a known quantity, known to be a handy depth player if you're desperate - but nothing more. He was given a block of 3 consecutive games from R7-10 and failed to perform in any of them. It's not like he didn't have his chances.
Symes - With 47 games in the previous 3 years, Symes is very much a known commodity. I would have thought that you'd be happy for the fact that he's been shunted out of the side to provide greater opportunities for the up & coming youngsters? Even so, he was given 5 consecutive games from R3-7, without ever really impressing in any of them.
Tambling - Missed one game through injury and one through suspension, other than that he played 6 consecutive games to start the season. However, his last 3 games were poor and he was dropped as a result. His SANFL form since then has not gone close to justifying a return to the senior team.
Vince - The Ferrari was misfiring badly and was sent to the shop for repairs after 4 consecutive games. It's not as if he wasn't given an opportunity - he had 4 of them. He would have returned earlier if he hadn't pinged a hamstring hours before the selectors met to name the team.
Walker - He's only missed 3 games so far, one of which was due to injury. Given his lack of on-field work ethic displayed at AFL level (in stark contrast to his SANFL performances), he's probably lucky to have played as many games as he has.

This is what happens with young, inexperienced players. They're expected to be in & out of the team, due to inconsistent performances. It's hardly unusual.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

This is what happens with young, inexperienced players. They're expected to be in & out of the team, due to inconsistent performances. It's hardly unusual.

You've demonstrated many times now that you don't understand what rebuilding means. It's ok, Neil doesn't either.

When you are rebuilding, your identified talent plays regardless of inconsistent performances. You tolerate inconsistency now because winning isn't as important and you know that this inconsistency will fade as experience grows.

All signs point to us continuing to make knee-jerk, form-based selections right up until Neil is dragged kicking and screaming out of the coaching role.