Jacinta Allan - Leading a zombie government

[MarcMaverick]

I just like how rank and file members of Vic Labor were already protesting how little public housing the project was going to deliver

And now its going to deliver even less but they're still selling off the land

Meanwhile they are defending their train-set to the hilt.

To wit, they slashed funding to hospitals, they deem that public housing is useless however they refuse to concede that the lack of funding it is because of this albatross around their neck called the SRL costing them.

 

[Gralin]

Get ****ed again

 

[kickazz]

Get ****ed again

Have been thinking about starting a thread on this topic for some time - I've been uncomfortable with it.

I understand that kids need to be treated differently and the justice system as it stands isn't handling them properly, but simply raising the age of responsibility came across as a cop out to me.

 

[Gralin]

Have been thinking about starting a thread on this topic for some time - I've been uncomfortable with it.

I understand that kids need to be treated differently and the justice system as it stands isn't handling them properly, but simply raising the age of responsibility came across as a cop out to me.

So you think grade 4 kids should be held criminally responsible for their actions?

What is it with this country and treating young children like adults when it comes to locking them up, but not for almost literally anything else

 

[Gough]

Can't have a social media account but can be held criminally responsible, good policy all round. golf claps

 

[Gralin]

Can't have a social media account but can be held criminally responsible, good policy all round. golf claps

Can't vote, can't drive, can go to jail

 

[Sttew]

So you think grade 4 kids should be held criminally responsible for their actions?

What is it with this country and treating young children like adults when it comes to locking them up, but not for almost literally anything else

doli incapax

Children under the age of 10 years cannot be charged with a criminal offence. If they are between 10 and 14 years old, the prosecution has to show that they knew what they were doing was seriously wrong for a case to continue.

 

[Gralin]

doli incapax

Children under the age of 10 years cannot be charged with a criminal offence. If they are between 10 and 14 years old, the prosecution has to show that they knew what they were doing was seriously wrong for a case to continue.

Yes I'm aware

They promised to raise the age from 10-14 and then didn't, I don't agree with 14 either but its certainly a step in the right direction

Again if you think a kid in grade 4 should be punished like an adult I think there is seriously something wrong with your views

 

[kickazz]

So you think grade 4 kids should be held criminally responsible for their actions?

Not always. Indeed, probably not most of the time.

Offenders of this age are very difficult to deal with. There is often trauma and other factors involved. But it is this trauma and other factors that need to be considered, not just a blanket raising of age limit.

I think there are many 12 year olds who know what they are doing is wrong and should be held to some sort of account.

 

[kickazz]

Again if you think a kid in grade 4 should be punished like an adult I think there is seriously something wrong with your views

Whoa there, I don't think any of us are suggesting that.

 

[Gralin]

Whoa there, I don't think any of us are suggesting that.

Putting kids through the criminal justice system is doing just that

 

[Gralin]

If you think it doesn't mean that talk to the kids who get locked up in adult facilities due to lack of space

 

[Gralin]

Not always. Indeed, probably not most of the time.

Offenders of this age are very difficult to deal with. There is often trauma and other factors involved. But it is this trauma and other factors that need to be considered, not just a blanket raising of age limit.

I think there are many 12 year olds who know what they are doing is wrong and should be held to some sort of account.

So you think the best way to do that is to criminalise them?

You want punishment for children via the court system

It's a pretty shit but common position in Australia

We are a bunch of cops after all

 

[kickazz]

If you think it doesn't mean that talk to the kids who get locked up in adult facilities due to lack of space

Fix that part of the system then. (And boy does it need fixing, my friend works in youth justice and has plenty of horrible stories). But like I said, raising the age is a cop out, it is sweeping a big problem under the carpet.

 

[Gralin]

Fix that part of the system then. (And boy does it need fixing, my friend works in youth justice and has plenty of horrible stories). But like I said, raising the age is a cop out, it is sweeping a big problem under the carpet.

We have one of the lowest age or responsibilities in the world and it doesn't line up with pretty much any other age based laws we have.

We reckonginse their status as minors for pretty much everything but when we want to criminalise them

Qld suspended it's own human rights legislation to allow children to be kept in adult facilities

This isn't about rehab, it doesn't fix problems or make them better people or the community safe

Locking up kids is the cop out

 

[kickazz]

So you think the best way to do that is to criminalise them?

You want punishment for children via the court system

It's a pretty shit but common position in Australia

We are a bunch of cops after all

So I am not a lawyer and I'd like a lawyer to chip in if they can.

My question is, if you are below the age threshold, what happens? I assume it's "nothing to see here" unless parents, schools etc choose to try and rehabilitate the child. (Victim can get stuffed)

Can there be a process that is legally enforceable whereby the child doesn't go through a normal criminal system but still had some sort of accountability?


For example, if Jamie Bulger's murderers were one year younger, what would have happened? Nothing? Genuine question.

 

[Sttew]

Gralin do you believe the prosecution should not be allowed to demonstrate that an accused child understood the criminal nature of their actions, or put it another way, do you believe children aged between 10 and 14 are incapable of morally appreciating right from wrong?

 

[kickazz]

Locking up kids is the cop out

I'm not wanting to lock them up. Well unless there is a high probability of them raping or killing other children, then I suppose it might need consideration.

Or is there a maximum age where being a victim of crime should count as well?

 

[Gralin]

This is an example of government by opposition and media

All it takes is a steady stream of whinging and the government walks back a policy commitment to placate those people

 

[Gralin]

Gralin do you believe the prosecution should not be allowed to demonstrate that an accused child understood the criminal nature of their actions, or put it another way, do you believe children aged between 10 and 14 are incapable of morally appreciating right from wrong?

I don't believe criminal punishment does anything useful in general

I don't think putting kids through that system does anything other than help guarantee a pipeline of future adults for the system

I think any happy at the idea of actual children being punished like that needs to have a really hard think about that.

 

[kickazz]

This is an example of government by opposition and media

All it takes is a steady stream of whinging and the government walks back a policy commitment to placate those people

FWIW I have taken this particular issue seriously for a long time and have grappled with it philosophy and pragmatically. I really think it is an interesting issue. I haven't hopped on a media bandwagon. Kind of wish I did start that thread years ago, it's a worthy discussion to have.

 

[Gralin]

So I am not a lawyer and I'd like a lawyer to chip in if they can.

My question is, if you are below the age threshold, what happens? I assume it's "nothing to see here" unless parents, schools etc choose to try and rehabilitate the child. (Victim can get stuffed)

Can there be a process that is legally enforceable whereby the child doesn't go through a normal criminal system but still had some sort of accountability?


For example, if Jamie Bulger's murderers were one year younger, what would have happened? Nothing? Genuine question.

Again you're looking for punishment

You want kids punished by the state for doing something you don't approve of

What does that say about your mindset

It's certainly not about rehabilitation or safety or improved community

 

[Gralin]

FWIW I have taken this particular issue seriously for a long time and have grappled with it philosophy and pragmatically. I really think it is an interesting issue. I haven't hopped on a media bandwagon. Kind of wish I did start that thread years ago, it's a worthy discussion to have.

Yes a thread for it would be good

 

[kickazz]

Again you're looking for punishment

You want kids punished by the state for doing something you don't approve of

What does that say about your mindset

It's certainly not about rehabilitation or safety or improved community

Question:

Should (mentally competent, not from a traumatic background, no FAS, no abuse etc) 13 year olds be allowed to rape 10 year Olds with impunity?

 

[adogsfan5]

Sorry to change the subject - but e-scooters being cancelled and removed in the CBD? Thought they were good?
Are they too dangerous?