This whole Jack 'berating' players is a bit over the top. All he did was swing his arms up in the air to tell Dusty to kick it higher (and he did). It was a one off thing, it's not like he does it every week.
-
AFLW 2024 - Round 9 - Indigenous Round - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Jack Riewoldt vs James Frawley
- Thread starter thecotch9
- Start date
- Tagged users None
This whole Jack 'berating' players is a bit over the top. All he did was swing his arms up in the air to tell Dusty to kick it higher (and he did). It was a one off thing, it's not like he does it every week.
00Stinger
100 - 7
My post was more in response to the comment 'I have no problem with them being yelled at for poor decisions/delivery'. I was merely making a point about the comment rather than Reiwoldt's attitude
See this is where I just can't agree with most people. Look at the premiership teams of recent years and you will find that they had a stronger defence rather than forward line with the exception of Hawthorn (08). And in that case Buddy had one of his very few off days.
Geelong 07,09,11 - Defence
Collingwood 10- Defence
Hawthorn 08- Forward
West Coast 06- Defence
Sydney 05- Defence
I will also point out that this is in no way a knock on Reiwoldt, more a response to the consensus that you would take a quality KPF over a quality KPD
Riewoldt played injured this year. I think a lot of people forget that.
2010 showed what he is capable of fully fit. In 2010 he was the second best KPF in the game, best FF in the game.
I know he's had a lot of surgery over the summer, but I think if they are succesful surgeries and he can enter 2012 unhindered that we will see him for what he is. The second or third best forward in the game behind Franklin and probably Cloke. I believe fully fit he has Kennedy and Nick R covered. Nick isn't the same player he was 5 years ago. Age/injuries are catching him.
2010 showed what he is capable of fully fit. In 2010 he was the second best KPF in the game, best FF in the game.
I know he's had a lot of surgery over the summer, but I think if they are succesful surgeries and he can enter 2012 unhindered that we will see him for what he is. The second or third best forward in the game behind Franklin and probably Cloke. I believe fully fit he has Kennedy and Nick R covered. Nick isn't the same player he was 5 years ago. Age/injuries are catching him.
HyperAgressiveDonk
Cancelled
- Banned
- #29
I agree with most of it except the bolded part. Nick was the best performed KPF in 2009, and was started off 2010 with two best on grounds before he got hurt. He had the season from hell in 2011, but being only 29, I believe he can get back to close to his best in 2012 and 2013. Nick Riewoldt at his best is scary good.
00Stinger
100 - 7
Frawley had a torn pec and missed the whole pre season and had a delayed start in 2011. So reiwoldt injury concerns are irrelevent in this poll as both players had injury concerns
Agree, perhaps the best player in the game at one point. But sadly I think he is well past his best, and personally I see him on the decline rather than the improve. He'l no doubt play some blinders still, but I don't think we'l see another AA season from Nick again. Going forward I think Jack will play the better football, and could very well be AA in 2012.
Yep, my post was in regards to Riewoldt v other forwards, a little off topic. Wasn't using it as an argument for or against Frawley.
Frawley's a gun, and while Riewoldt as a forward might finish his career more "decorated", Frawley will no doubt be just as important to the demons, though might not get the individual accolades as he is a defender. I wouldn't swap Riewoldt for Frawley, I'm sure demons fans wouldn't make the trade either.
I agree Sivart.
Frawley has the ability to play the traditional stopping role on the opposition best our KPF, but then transition off his man to create run and carry or options out of the backline.
If you look at the evolution of game styles over the past few years and it is very much about setting play up out of defence and having a general good spread of goal kickers rather than one bloke kicking them all. That’s why I think going forward rebounding KPD (Frawley, Scarlett, Gibson etc) are of greater value.
That said I’d have Jack in a heartbeat, just not in a trade for Frawley...
James Frawley will save you games of footy, if you already have the lead, he won't win them for you.
Jack Riewoldt will win you games of footy, ie take the big mark and slot the big goal.
That's the difference between elite forwards and elite defenders.
Which is more important? Well that's a bit of a chicken and egg question. If you're a team like Hawthorn you need someone to save the game, Frawley. If you're a team like Carlton you need that spearhead, Riewoldt.
Jack Riewoldt will win you games of footy, ie take the big mark and slot the big goal.
That's the difference between elite forwards and elite defenders.
Which is more important? Well that's a bit of a chicken and egg question. If you're a team like Hawthorn you need someone to save the game, Frawley. If you're a team like Carlton you need that spearhead, Riewoldt.
Not sure why people think averages are better than totals in assessing who had a better season - especially to the point totals are completely ignored. Without a total to work off, averages are almost meaningless; John Butcher for example averaged the same as Riewoldt (2.8 goals) in 2011, so he must have had as good a year right?
HyperAgressiveDonk
Cancelled
- Banned
- #35
Averages ( particuarly goals, tackles & goal assists for forwards ) can give a fairly accurate indication whose been the better player if they are over a fairly large sample. Those are 3 very important kpis for forwards. Butcher played 4 games, so it's null and void as it's only a small sample.
Totals can be skewed, as one player might miss a couple of games, whilst the other player might play a couple of more games. But yet both, may still have a large enough sample to be comparable on averages, unlike your example re: Butcher.
It's the fairest way to do it in most peoples eyes. All the football experts post the stat averages on shows like On The Couch, AFL Teams etc, when talking about players or teams. They very rarely post totals, because as like I said, totals can be misleading if one player plays two or three more games than the other player. Averages is the way it's usually done, because it's by far the most logical and fair way to do it in most cases.
- Aug 8, 2010
- 7,721
- 6,830
- AFL Club
- Richmond
- Banned
- #36
I've never been a fan of stats since they only tell part of the story.
For instance you take Jack's goal assists over 2010/11 and you arrive at a 0.6 average per game. What it doesn't say though is Jack more then doubled his GA tally in 2011 going from 9 to 21, which coincides with the team first message Hardwick was sending him and the team.
but as far as stats go I do like the Goals Contributed one for forwards as it combines both Goals + Goal Assists.
For instance you take Jack's goal assists over 2010/11 and you arrive at a 0.6 average per game. What it doesn't say though is Jack more then doubled his GA tally in 2011 going from 9 to 21, which coincides with the team first message Hardwick was sending him and the team.
but as far as stats go I do like the Goals Contributed one for forwards as it combines both Goals + Goal Assists.
The best way of differentiating small samples from large is to indicate either the number of games from which the average derives, the totals, or both. Other than that, it's a just a number without a frame, as the Butcher example shows; and look, you immediately pointed to his FOUR games, which whether you realise or not, actually highlights that you agree with me when it's put into practice ... depending on if it suits you of course. lol
If posting a single set of figures in assessing which individual player had a better season, totals are far more relevant and less skewed than averages (see Butcher example); if looking at p/game performance then averages become more relevant, but that was not what was being discussed was it? In this case, the poster was making statements about player performance over the 2010-11 H&A seasons and you chimed with p/game averages that skewed his comment and then you called him a liar despite him actually being correct.
I know you're trying to be smart and playing the troll and all that, but you've really tied yourself up on this attempt Donk.
HyperAgressiveDonk
Cancelled
- Banned
- #38
^^ This is another lie.
What is the point of your last couple of posts? You're really begginning to confuse me with what you're trying to achieve here
Even though Franklin has played 4 less games than Riewoldt over the last two seasons, he still leads him for totals in 2 out of the 3 aformentioned categories:
2010/2011 season
Goals
Franklin 142
Riewoldt 140
GA
Franklin 23
Riewoldt 30
Tackles
Franklin 141
Riewoldt 116
Source AFL stats.
Totals or averages, Franklin is ahead.
And you can keep using totals, but as I stated previously, nobody else does. Anyway, lets get this back on topic.
The point of my post - I think your running around calling people liars is a bit over the top when you yourself are wide of the mark. Here's what the guy actually said ...
"Richmond players love playing with Jack because he is one of the most unselfish, team oriented players at our club. His goal assists and forward 50 tackles speak for themselves, unparalleled by any other KPF over the past 2 years, especially when combined with goal tally."
And you've said this was "a very very big lie"
He pointed to 2 key statistical fields and secondarily referenced a third. You keep pointing to your stat fields as though it proves you right, but it doesn't even parallel what the guy actually said.
Goals Assists
Riewoldt 30
Franklin 23
That's a 30% increase to Riewoldt's figures.
Forward 50 tackles
I can't find these figures, but simply listing general tackles and calling the guy a liar is dishonest in its own way. I did find this July reference from Richmond's forward coach Danny Daly though, which points to the poster not being too far off the mark - "He [Riewoldt] is No.1 in the AFL for tackles inside-50 ..." afl.com.au
Now to view the secondary "especially combined with" part of the guys statement ...
Goals H&A - as already established by earlier posts.
Riewoldt 140
Franklin 133
So it seems the guy, while perhaps getting a bit carried away with his unparalleled comment, is far from a lying at all; let alone telling very very big lies. I think you've allowed yourself to overreact in defense of your hero. Any lingering confusion?
And as for saying no one accounts for totals or game played, it doesn't matter how arrogantly you proclaim it, that doesn't make it real. Here's just one example of reality for you - the Hun's end of year report card for Hawthorn listing their "vital stats" - all totals, not an average among them
HyperAgressiveDonk
Cancelled
- Banned
- #40
So finals goals don't count?
You're seriously not worth it. Exercise in futility imo.
If you were a troll, I would actually respect you, but the fact you actually believe what you say....... well yeah.........
You would argue black is white and pink is yellow until you're blue in the face. In fact, every thread you're in, you are getting involved in some kind of fight with someone and you are often wrong.
I'm not going to continue this conversation though, as the thread has been derailed enough imo. Go on, have the last word, but then let it get back on topic please! Have fun.
That's no evaluation of mine, I just saw how earlier in the thread the distinction of H&A performance had been made by others. Rather than fixate on this SECONDARY stat though and claim it as so unbearably unreasonable that you couldn't possibly continue (I mean seriously?) you can keep that secondary field at 146-140 if you like; because it really doesn't change the point AT ALL. The guy was not lying, he wasn't even completely wrong.
Of course it is. Every time you talk shit to me it's futile, as I've just shown above.
Btw, can I call you a liar now coz you said "no one uses totals"? I did prove it as complete rubbish after all. Or do you think that would be over the top?
Tiger Titus
Team Captain
- May 11, 2011
- 576
- 764
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Why are you turning this into a pissing contest HAD? Nobody is claiming Riewoldt is a better player than Franklin. Franklin has nothing to do with the poll.
Assertions that have been made in this poll about Riewoldt:
He has achieved the highest honour in his respective position
Correct. He has won the Coleman Medal and been named full-forward in the AA team.
In the last 2 home and away seasons he has kicked 140 goals, the most of any player over that period
Correct, if a bit misleading. No player has kicked more goals in home and away matches over the last 2 years.
His goal assists and forward 50 tackles speak for themselves, unparalleled by any other KPF over the past 2 years
Not necessarily correct, but not proven incorrect either. Jack had more goal assists in 2011 than any other KPF (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2011&rt=LT&st=GA) with the possible exception of Adam Goodes (depending on whether you class Goodes as a KPF). The tackles inside 50 are an unknown stat to us at the moment, but we know most of Jack's tackles would be in the forward 50.
Assertions that have not been made:
No non-Hawthorn supporter has directly compared Riewoldt to Franklin
I don't understand why every time a Tiger fan makes a positive or proud assertion about Riewoldt a Hawk pops up and makes sure we all know that he'll always be second fiddle to Buddy. It would be nice to keep the discussion related to the poll at hand.
On the subject of the poll, I voted Riewoldt. Bias was obviously a factor, but I believe even the best defenders need a good structure to shine in, but a gun forward can carry a forward line alone and in the process make a team look better than they actually are (Tigers in 2010), and thus the forward is more valuable. Frawley is still a player I would love to have at Richmond.
Assertions that have been made in this poll about Riewoldt:
He has achieved the highest honour in his respective position
Correct. He has won the Coleman Medal and been named full-forward in the AA team.
In the last 2 home and away seasons he has kicked 140 goals, the most of any player over that period
Correct, if a bit misleading. No player has kicked more goals in home and away matches over the last 2 years.
His goal assists and forward 50 tackles speak for themselves, unparalleled by any other KPF over the past 2 years
Not necessarily correct, but not proven incorrect either. Jack had more goal assists in 2011 than any other KPF (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2011&rt=LT&st=GA) with the possible exception of Adam Goodes (depending on whether you class Goodes as a KPF). The tackles inside 50 are an unknown stat to us at the moment, but we know most of Jack's tackles would be in the forward 50.
Assertions that have not been made:
No non-Hawthorn supporter has directly compared Riewoldt to Franklin
I don't understand why every time a Tiger fan makes a positive or proud assertion about Riewoldt a Hawk pops up and makes sure we all know that he'll always be second fiddle to Buddy. It would be nice to keep the discussion related to the poll at hand.
On the subject of the poll, I voted Riewoldt. Bias was obviously a factor, but I believe even the best defenders need a good structure to shine in, but a gun forward can carry a forward line alone and in the process make a team look better than they actually are (Tigers in 2010), and thus the forward is more valuable. Frawley is still a player I would love to have at Richmond.
- Oct 3, 2009
- 2,346
- 3,663
- AFL Club
- Richmond
The point of my post - I think your running around calling people liars is a bit over the top when you yourself are wide of the mark. Here's what the guy actually said ...
"Richmond players love playing with Jack because he is one of the most unselfish, team oriented players at our club. His goal assists and forward 50 tackles speak for themselves, unparalleled by any other KPF over the past 2 years, especially when combined with goal tally."
And you've said this was "a very very big lie"
He pointed to 2 key statistical fields and secondarily referenced a third. You keep pointing to your stat fields as though it proves you right, but it doesn't even parallel what the guy actually said.
Goals Assists
Riewoldt 30
Franklin 23
That's a 30% increase to Riewoldt's figures.
Forward 50 tackles
I can't find these figures, but simply listing general tackles and calling the guy a liar is dishonest in its own way. I did find this July reference from Richmond's forward coach Danny Daly though, which points to the poster not being too far off the mark - "He [Riewoldt] is No.1 in the AFL for tackles inside-50 ..." afl.com.au
Now to view the secondary "especially combined with" part of the guys statement ...
Goals H&A - as already established by earlier posts.
Riewoldt 140
Franklin 133
So it seems the guy, while perhaps getting a bit carried away with his unparalleled comment, is far from a lying at all; let alone telling very very big lies. I think you've allowed yourself to overreact in defense of your hero. Any lingering confusion?
And as for saying no one accounts for totals or game played, it doesn't matter how arrogantly you proclaim it, that doesn't make it real. Here's just one example of reality for you - the Hun's end of year report card for Hawthorn listing their "vital stats" - all totals, not an average among them
My favorite post ever....
HAD continually bags Jack and then changes the stats to suit his argument, then sooks when someone shows him hes actually wrong. Well played Monkey King......
My favorite post ever....
HAD continually bags Jack and then changes the stats to suit his argument, then sooks when someone shows him hes actually wrong. Well played Monkey King......
Thanks mate. I don't really get the I'll take my bat and go home stuff tbh. I didn't get personal; I tried to be as straight-up and logical as I could. I can only assume with Donk's poker playing background, that once he realised bluffing his was through a dud hand wasn't going to work, he folded
EDIT: Can you believe he's still claiming to be straight-up even after having it pointed out so plainly? Doesn't want to actually tackle the post that spells it out for him, but does seem happy enough to continue making vacuous statements. lol
HyperAgressiveDonk
Cancelled
- Banned
- #46
My favorite post ever....
HAD continually bags Jack and then changes the stats to suit his argument, then sooks when someone shows him hes actually wrong. Well played Monkey King......
Mate, I gave you straight up averages and then straight up totals, it wasn't me who tried to fiddle with stats. Try again.
Had a breakout season in 2010 adn probably would have continued his form last year if not injured.
Same with JR. Break out in 2010, carried an injury in 2011.
Will keep an eye on both this season, but for the poll I voted for JR as I rate a great forward over an equally great defender.
Same with JR. Break out in 2010, carried an injury in 2011.
Will keep an eye on both this season, but for the poll I voted for JR as I rate a great forward over an equally great defender.
Blackas87
Brownlow Medallist
Jack has only kicked 10 goals from 8 games against Melbourne at an average of 1.25. His lowest average against any side apart from the Gold Coast where he has 1 goal from 1 game. So far in the head to head battle Frawley is killing him.
- Aug 8, 2009
- 10,074
- 12,010
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Maybe in a head to head! Although from memory I think they have both won a couple each...
BUT WHO WOULD YOU RATHER IN YOUR SIDE IS THE QUESTIOn???
BUT WHO WOULD YOU RATHER IN YOUR SIDE IS THE QUESTIOn???
Similar threads
- Poll
