Moved Thread James Hird - is it time to give him a second chance at coaching an AFL club? Gil says yes! - The PEDs Forum Version

[CASEYS9420]

James Hird needs to answer a lot of questions before he should be in charge of young players ever again, heres a few -

• Why did you make players sign NDA's?
• Why dont you know what drugs the players were taking?
• Why did you continue the program behind Dr Reids back?
• Was it a collective club decision that all the players repeatedly lie and not disclose to ASADA what drugs they were taking?
• What was your full relationship with Shane Charter? and are you still in contact with him today?
• And what steps have you taken personally and professionally in the past 8yrs to prove to us that you'll never do anything like that again?

 

[blueboy25]

James Hird needs to answer a lot of questions before he should be in charge of young players ever again, heres a few -

• Why did you make players sign NDA's? it was the 2 bad people
• Why dont you know what drugs the players were taking? it was the 2 bad people
• Why did you continue the program behind Dr Reids back? it was the 2 bad people
• Was it a collective club decision that all the players repeatedly lie and not disclose to ASADA what drugs they were taking? it was the 2 bad people
• What was your full relationship with Shane Charter? and are you still in contact with him today? it was the 2 bad people
• And what steps have taken personally and professionally in the past 8yrs to prove to us that you'll never do anything like that again? it was the 2 bad people

Answered for you

 

[zeggie]

James Hird's shredder needs to answer a lot of questions before....

FTFY

 

[Red Bull]

Worst Essendon coach Iv'e seen.

 

[Kickit2brown]

Hird at least got us top 4 and having players playing for the jumper no coach has come even close since.

He also had them juiced up.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

He also had them juiced up.

Didn't win a flag and copped soft tissues injuries what ever they were using didn't work so much for performance enhancing.

 

[Kickit2brown]

Didn't win a flag and copped soft tissues injuries what ever they were using didn't work and wasn't performance enhancing.

I've always found this line of argument quite interesting. How do you quantify they didn't work? Why did they go to so much effort to use them if they felt they didn't help? Quite clearly Hird thought he was onto something special. "Not as good as us in that department".

The line rolled out by Essendon at the time was the biggest lie in history "We don't know what we gave them but we know it wasn't harmful, and it wasn't performance enhancing" - Do you really believe that shit?

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

I've always found this line of argument quite interesting. How do you quantify they didn't work? Why did they go to so much effort to use them if they felt they didn't help? Quite clearly Hird thought he was onto something special. "Not as good as us in that department".

The line rolled out by Essendon at the time was the biggest lie in history "We don't know what we gave them but we know it wasn't harmful, and it wasn't performance enhancing" - Do you really believe that s**t?

Who knows.

Only Dank knows what he gave the players that prick should have been arrested and belted by the cops when they interagted him make him confess

Instead the poor players copped it in the neck whilst that prick walked away scott free.

 

[Kickit2brown]

Who knows.

Only Dank knows what he gave the players that prick should have been arrested and belted by the cops when they interagted him make him confess.

Ok so all Danky the bad guys fault and Hird is clean. Got it

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

lol love these over egged comments

they took a drug That produces extra amounts of something that’s already in your body. It was a drug that assisted in recovery And it didn’t even *in work. The whole team got soft tissue injuries.

they didn’t take anabolic steroids you numpty.

They were using a cocktail that mimicked HGH.

It absolutely works.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

They were using a cocktail that mimicked HGH.

It absolutely works.

Well it didn't becauase players copped soft tissue injuries

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Ok so all Danky the bad guys fault and Hird is clean. Got it

Nope Hirds at fault too for allowing it to happen

 

[HirdsTheWord]

They were using a cocktail that mimicked HGH.

It absolutely works.

TB4s literal use is to prevent soft tissue injuries. It clearly did not work As the whole team had bloody soft tissue issues haha

I am not sure where you're getting your info but TB4 is not a growth hormone. It is made up of proteins and amino acids.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

TB4s literal use is to prevent soft tissue injuries. It clearly did not work As the whole team had bloody soft tissue issues haha

i am not sure where your getting your info but TB4 is not a growth hormone. It is made up of proteins and amino acids.

From the AMMG Conference in April 2015:



3:30 PM - 4:20 PM

Peptides: An Emerging Revolutionary Therapeutic Approach

Robin J. Willcourt, M.D.

Medical Director, EpigenX Integrated Medicine
Private Practice, Anti-Aging Medicine, Weight Loss, Sports Nutrition and Hormone Replacement Therapies, Melbourne, Australia



Lecture Description:
A group of chemicals, based on naturally occurring peptide messengers and hormones involved in normal human physiological processes is emerging. The effects of peptides vary from treating sexual dysfunction to inducing a ‘suntan.’ Others affect the immune system enhancing its ability to modify the effects of autoimmune diseases including glomerular diseases and even cartilage regeneration. Perhaps the most extraordinary peptide to emerge is AOD 9604, which has anti-inflammatory properties which lead to an immediate reduction in pain wherever it is injected or applied topically. In early clinical studies it has been found to heal and relieve burn pain with more efficiency than any other known treatment. Follistatin is the only substance known to induce muscle satellite cells to become new muscle cells, i.e., hyperplasia rather than hypertrophy. Thymosin beta-4 affects immune responses and is integral to formation of growth of normal tissue when damage has occurred rather than the chaotic formation of scar tissue that normally happens. These two peptides affect activin and actin, both of which are involved in tissue repair but which often produce disordered growth in the new tissue. Cjc-1295 and ipamorelin boost the natural production of Growth Hormone (GH). This is an alternative to the expensive r-hGH mostly commonly used for boosting IGF-1 and has the advantage of inducing all five of the hGH isoforms rather just the one that is found in the synthetic form. These peptides operate on the normal feedback loop so that overdosing is limited. GH boosting is being studied as a pre-surgery adjunct to see if healing and recovery times are shortened. Melanotan 2 stimulates melanocyte stimulating hormone. It has potential as an appetite suppressant and from one of its other side effects it has been used to treat decreased libido. From this peptide, Bremelanotide has been developed and is currently in trials for the treatment of Female Sexual Dysfunction. It is effective in treating erectile dysfunction.


In his lecture, he spoke about the 'mighty trio' of these peptides and spoke about 'small clinical examples' that confirmed their effectiveness. Any guess what that small clinical example was??

Dank knew what the players were being given, and he knew exactly why he was giving it to them. I'm comfortably satisfied that Hird did too. They were trying to cheat the system by using a cocktail of legal peptides to mimic the effects of HGH. The f**k up of course was that AOD and TB4 were in fact illegal.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

From the AMMG Conference in April 2015:



3:30 PM - 4:20 PM

Peptides: An Emerging Revolutionary Therapeutic Approach

Robin J. Willcourt, M.D.

Medical Director, EpigenX Integrated Medicine
Private Practice, Anti-Aging Medicine, Weight Loss, Sports Nutrition and Hormone Replacement Therapies, Melbourne, Australia



Lecture Description:
A group of chemicals, based on naturally occurring peptide messengers and hormones involved in normal human physiological processes is emerging. The effects of peptides vary from treating sexual dysfunction to inducing a ‘suntan.’ Others affect the immune system enhancing its ability to modify the effects of autoimmune diseases including glomerular diseases and even cartilage regeneration. Perhaps the most extraordinary peptide to emerge is AOD 9604, which has anti-inflammatory properties which lead to an immediate reduction in pain wherever it is injected or applied topically. In early clinical studies it has been found to heal and relieve burn pain with more efficiency than any other known treatment. Follistatin is the only substance known to induce muscle satellite cells to become new muscle cells, i.e., hyperplasia rather than hypertrophy. Thymosin beta-4 affects immune responses and is integral to formation of growth of normal tissue when damage has occurred rather than the chaotic formation of scar tissue that normally happens. These two peptides affect activin and actin, both of which are involved in tissue repair but which often produce disordered growth in the new tissue. Cjc-1295 and ipamorelin boost the natural production of Growth Hormone (GH). This is an alternative to the expensive r-hGH mostly commonly used for boosting IGF-1 and has the advantage of inducing all five of the hGH isoforms rather just the one that is found in the synthetic form. These peptides operate on the normal feedback loop so that overdosing is limited. GH boosting is being studied as a pre-surgery adjunct to see if healing and recovery times are shortened. Melanotan 2 stimulates melanocyte stimulating hormone. It has potential as an appetite suppressant and from one of its other side effects it has been used to treat decreased libido. From this peptide, Bremelanotide has been developed and is currently in trials for the treatment of Female Sexual Dysfunction. It is effective in treating erectile dysfunction.


In his lecture, he spoke about the 'mighty trio' of these peptides and spoke about 'small clinical examples' that confirmed their effectiveness. Any guess what that small clinical example was??

Dank knew what the players were being given, and he knew exactly why he was giving it to them. I'm comfortably satisfied that Hird did too. They were trying to cheat the system by using a cocktail of legal peptides to mimic the effects of HGH. The f**k up of course was that AOD and TB4 were in fact illegal.

wait, i'm confused. Are you saying that TB4 is a growth hormone, or another drug is?

or are you saying they may have taken something that mimics the effects of a growth hormone, but isn't actually a growth hormone.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

wait, i'm confused. Are you saying that TB4 is a growth hormone, or another drug is?

or are you saying they may have taken something that mimics the effects of a growth hormone, but isn't actually a growth hormone.

My opinion is, and always has been this.... Dank and his crew (of which Willcourt was a key player) believed that the cocktail of AOD, TB4 and CJC mimicked the effect of taking HGH.

They believed that whilst HGH is illegal, the individual peptides were not. So by taking them as a 'cocktail' they were basically getting the advantages of HGH without breaking any rules. Immoral? Maybe. Unethical? Yeah, probably. Dodgy? Absolutely. Dishonest? Yes. Illegal? No.... or so they thought. They didn't realise obviously that AOD and TB4 were in fact illegal.

This is why the 'bloods' were so important. They were administering this stuff and testing regularly to monitor the effectiveenss of what they were doing. It's pretty obvious that these 'clinical examples' that Willcourt referenced was the Essendon players.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I'm saying that Dank and his crew (of which Willcourt was a key player) believed that the cocktail of AOD, TB4 and CJC mimicked the effect of taking HGH.

They believed that whilst HGH is illegal, the individual peptides were not. So by taking them as a 'cocktail' they were basically getting the advantages of HGH without breaking any rules. Immoral? Maybe. Unethical? Yeah, probably. Dodgy? Absolutely. Dishonest? Yes. Illegal? No.... or so they thought. They didn't realise obviously that AOD and TB4 were in fact illegal.

This is why the 'bloods' were so important. They were administering this stuff and testing regularly to monitor the effectiveenss of what they were doing. It's pretty obvious that these 'clinical examples' that Willcourt referenced was the Essendon players.

ok so to be clear they didn't actually take a HGH and they were found guilty of taking TB4 (which is a banned substance), none of the other stuff you are talking about.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

ok so to be clear they didn't actually take a HGH and they were found guilty of taking TB4 (which is a banned substance), none of the other stuff you are talking about.

I don't believe they took HGH. They were taking a cocktail of other substances that they believed produced the same effect as taking HGH.

The problem was that two of those substances were actually illegal. Which of course, they didn't realise.


So they didn't think they were doing anything illegal. But they actually were.


The issue with this in terms of being a defence, is that HGH is banned because it gives an unfair advantage. The substance isn't the issue - it's the advantage you gain that's the problem. So getting that same advantage from different methods is still clearly cheating and dishonest.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I don't believe they took HGH. They were taking a cocktail of other substances that they believed produced the same effect as taking HGH.

The problem was that two of those substances were actually illegal. Which of course, they didn't realise.


So they didn't think they were doing anything illegal. But they actually were.


The issue with this in terms of being a defence, is that HGH is banned because it gives an unfair advantage. The substance isn't the issue - it's the advantage you gain that's the problem. So getting that same advantage from different methods is still clearly cheating and dishonest.

yeah but they weren't found guilty of taking anything but TB4.

So they may as well have been takin an extra Spoon of Milo because they were not found in the wrong for doing it.

I suppose i dont disagree with you that they were found guilty of taking a banned substance, but you seem to be over egging what they were actually found guilty of doing.

 

[blueboy25]

yeah but they weren't found guilty of taking anything but TB4.

So they may as well have been takin an extra Spoon of Milo because they were not found in the wrong for doing it.

I suppose i dont disagree with you that they were found guilty of taking a banned substance, but you seem to be over egging what they were actually found guilty of doing.

Unfortunately we will never know because records weren't kept or destroyed.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Unfortunately we will never know because records weren't kept or destroyed.

well, anyone can use their imagination I guess.

But assuming they took something that is not found to be proven doesn't hold up much merit.

Anyways back to topic.

 

[juss]

No need to start the what did they take/not take back and forth again. The whole saga was based around that and still there is uncertainty.

Which probably leads to the premise of this thread, Hird was a senior decision maker in that program. Either he knew what was going on or he didn't, and either one of those are gross incompetance and poor leadership that makes it untenable for him to coach again at AFL level IMO.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

yeah but they weren't found guilty of taking anything but TB4.

So they may as well have been takin an extra Spoon of Milo because they were not found in the wrong for doing it.

I suppose i dont disagree with you that they were found guilty of taking a banned substance, but you seem to be over egging what they were actually found guilty of doing.

I know what they were found guilty of. But that's very different to what were actually doing.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I know what they were found guilty of. But that's very different to what were actually doing.

ok lol.

 

[Dangerousfield]

Unfortunately we will never know because records weren't kept or destroyed.

Dodoro has a copy, makes him bulletproof among the carnage at the Hangar