I don't think I explained my initial post properly, I looked at the first 12 from your starting 22 that I could think of ie all the big names and they are all probably going to be gone in 2 - 3 years time. What I don't see is any succession plan or even a hint at succession plan down from the Crows, there may be a lot of young guys on your list but hardly any of them have played at all for you and they really needed to start blooding some through. I think the Crows will try and trade for some small forward types, they need security for Bode because you really missed his presence up forward this season. Anyway point is, getting rid of Torney is a stupid move if they just delist him, I'm sure they could get something for him if they did want to move him on but I really don't think they should.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Jason Torney - 50/50
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OT but have we even got Pfieffer signed up for next year yet?Torney is a quality player and very underrated. He gets the job done week in, week out and I would be disappointed if he left.
But if he does move on, it's time folks...
The 26-30 age group doesn't really excite you. We've got way way too many fringe players that are in that group. Poor list management resulted in that. We have to really hope that our youngsters kick on otherwise we will be really really exposed in a few years time.
Yes, we will soon have a new batch of draftees (hopefully mostly teenagers) to add to the list. We will also be removing several of the older players from the list (you may notice that I didn't include Roo on that list as his departure has been formally announced).
As for the comment that we don't have an "old list", consider the following:
- As of today, the average age of our list is 25 years exactly (not one day more or less).
- Assuming Roo is the only 30+ departure, we will begin season 2008 with 6 players aged 30 or older (with Burton joining that list in May). Only Sydney come close to that figure.
- Footscray were the only team to have more players aged 30+ in 2007 - and most of them have already announced their retirements (only West, Johnson & Aker remain).
Adelaide: 24 yrs 126 days
Brisbane: 22 yrs 173 days
Carlton: 22 yrs 110 days
Collingwood: 23 yrs 0 days
Essendon: 23 yrs 98 days
Footscray: 23 yrs 166 days
Fremantle: 24 yrs 39 days
Geelong: 22 yrs 327 days
Hawthorn: 22 yrs 82 days
Melbourne: 23 yrs 219 days
North Melbourne: 22 yrs 326 days
Port Adelaide: 22 yrs 132 days
Richmond: 22 yrs 298 days
St Kilda: 23 yrs 299 days
Sydney: 23 yrs 61 days
West Coast: 22 yrs 180 days
So, Adelaide's list is on average 87 days older than the next oldest in the competition - across 40 players that's 9 years. Across the whole of the AFL, the average is (was) 23 yrs 28 days, with Adelaide being 1yr 98 days greater than average - or 50 years more experienced in total.
It is also worth considering that our closest competitors for this title - Fremantle & St Kilda have both had numerous retirements amongst their older players this year (Fremantle have lost Cook & Parker, with Bell likely to follow; St Kilda have lost Thompson, Voss, Gehrig, M Clarke & Hamill). Adelaide have so far only lost Roo.
It is also worth noting that Adelaide started 2007 with an older list, than they did in 2006 (23yrs 243 days) - which was already one of the oldest in the AFL.
That Adelaide have an "old list" is NOT a myth. The question is how they will choose to manage this list and the impending massive turnover of senior players.
I would take an old Andrew Macleod over a lot of younger players....
big schnitzel
Debutant
Impressive research and numbers by my oh my what a beat up! I am not disputing that we have the oldest list in the AFL. But I am saying that it isn't as big a deal as people like yourself make it out to be. As I said, our issue is not old age, our issue is genuine talent.
Genuine talent is found by introducing new kids into the club regularly, over turning the dead wood. An old list that finishes 8th is a reflection of a club who have become complacent with their list. It wasn't so much of an issue when we were finishing top of the table, but now it is. Get those brooms out guys.
We need new blood, we need to move on the 2nd tiers who are over 26. Simple. Bode, massie, doughty, perrie, need to be delisted this year. Torney IMO should be retained after a stellar 08, but unless players are at there best, they need to go. start building from the bottom up and use the draft not trade week, except to move on dead wood..
rfctigerarmy
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Hope Jason stays on for next year. Love him as a player and still a shame we moved him on.
All the best Torn!
All the best Torn!
Wow we must surely have the worst list in the 26-29 age bracket in the AFL. This is where the strength of a team's list should come from as these guys should be experienced but still at their physical peak. We do not have a single elite player among them with several duds being in there too (Perrie and Doughty) Welsh or Stevens would have to be the pick of the bunch. No wonder we can't win a flag. Terrible. Absolutely terrible.
Hard to disagree with your assessment. Our problem isn't with our 30+ year-olds (Macca, Goody, Tyson, Bass are all stars), but with this group of 26-29 year-olds who are, at best, workmanlike.
Stevens - solid / greatly improved
Shirley - competitive
McGregor - inconsistent
Massie - competitive
Doughty - just ok / past it
Bode - good, but injury-prone
Perrie - past it
Welsh - best goalkicking forward, but terribly inconsistent
Burton - great one minute, awful the next
Certainly no elite players there.
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jenny61_99
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That OLD list made the prelim final in 05 and 06 and the elim final in 07. Our decline was not due to age or complacency - rather injury.
Stevens and Massie are the only one there I would miss if they left/delisted...Maybe Bode, if not injured.
More of then than not, injuries increase with age.
Prior to 2006 Mark Ricciuto has hardly ever missed a game of footy. Take out that period in late 1997 and Roo would have missed 2 or 3 games in his career. With age comes wear and tear and body keeps getting injured.
I am not sure we can blame age or bad luck exclusively for our year. I personally think its a combination of both plus some other issues.
Brett_Burton_#24
Debutant
I think Torney had his best ever season with the Crows this year i think will be mad not to resign him for next year
Spot on, and thats why I think we will struggle for a few years. For as good as Thompson, Knights, Reilly, Rutten etc will be, they are not good enough to compensate for the lack of gun senior players. That is an ordinary bunch of senior players, not a group to lead you to a flag.
When i first saw this thread i thought 'no way' as Torney was one of our better players at the end of the year. However, we have to inject youth in a measured fashion across all areas of the field. I also believe Goodwin would be even better on Torney's HBF thus giving more responsibility in midfield to younger blokes. I'd also play one of McLeod or Johncock up forward opening up a defensive spot for a young bloke (assuming Torney not there). This could open the way for Pfeiffer.
Big question to me then is whether Hinge is worth persisting with as i would be upgrading Gallman in any case. If Hinge worth it, I'd delist Torney. If Hinge not up to it, Torney could be kept for depth.
Therefore i would:
Gone: Roo, Hudson, Meesen, Perrie, Doughty, Bode, Hinge/Torney (and McIntyre)
Upgrade: Gallman
Big question to me then is whether Hinge is worth persisting with as i would be upgrading Gallman in any case. If Hinge worth it, I'd delist Torney. If Hinge not up to it, Torney could be kept for depth.
Therefore i would:
Gone: Roo, Hudson, Meesen, Perrie, Doughty, Bode, Hinge/Torney (and McIntyre)
Upgrade: Gallman
Kane McGoodwin
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Doughty is contracted for 2008, so he will be safe.
That's a real pity, he epitomises 'good/solid/average' and at his age and experience level that's worth a delisting. Important players cannot get an additional year (though in Hudsons case i understand the clubs stance) yet McGregor gets 2 and Doughty must have been given at least 2 based on one above average year in a dominant side. Now he is taking up a spot for another year.
1. Would anyone want him as part of a trade package, or even for a 3rd round pick? Probably not (reinforcing why he shouldn't have a contract).
2. He should be no more than a depth player. If he keeps a younger guy out of the side this year it's a joke unless he actually performs to the level Torney did in his last few games (i.e. in top third of players, not just average). Maybe...
3. In an ironic twist, could we pay out his final year, and draft a cheap young project player...like Obst! Plenty of room in the cap and wouldn't have implications beyond this year anyway. I reckon it's worth it but the club wont do it i guess, so....
4. Given we are stuck with him, I'd probably get rid of Torney, and maybe Hinge as well. I doubt both will go, so that's one less pick in the draft. As such we should clear the rookie spots (given the Gallman upgrade hopefully) and put 2 ruckmen on there and hope one is a Griffin type as i don't think we should be using picks of any note this year on a hunch when we desperately need to prioritise other positions
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As I said before I hope that Neil Craig is given the opportunity to rebuild our list because for once there is some genuine talent in there to create our next nucleus from, and there needs to be more. I am certain the youth will be pedaled in 2008 as it would have been moreso this year if not for injuries. We know that Craig can get an extraordinary amount out of players with limited talent; lets see what he can do with some genuine talent.
With Mattner leaving it will probably aid Torney in getting a new contract
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**** it. If we're getting rid of half our list for draft picks (leaves a gaping hole in our team - short term), we aren't going to be challenging for the flag next year.
We should get rid of Torney, Doughty, Perrie, Bode as well, and play Pfeiffer or recruit Symes and play him.
As much as I love Torney, I think it's time.
We should get rid of Torney, Doughty, Perrie, Bode as well, and play Pfeiffer or recruit Symes and play him.
As much as I love Torney, I think it's time.
Mcleod_Nine
Debutant
I cant see Torney not signing for another year
he had his best season in 2007
and now that Mattners gone we need him more
he had his best season in 2007
and now that Mattners gone we need him more
