Coach John Longmire - Part IV

[caesar88]

Totally agree, Horse has never been a good coach tactically in that way. Constantly butchers the moving of players.

Why are we not playing Parker as a permanent mid now that he's fit and healthy and moving Heeney forward?

We literally have no forward class without Papley, move the bloody magnets.

I don't know that Parker is the answer either. In fact I'm confident he's not. I think it has to be something different, a new look. I'd be looking at Sheldrick or Cleary. They're not ideal, still young and raw, but that's unfortunately the point of desperation we are at. I genuinely don't know if Heeney is going to improve, and if not, he's just wasting a spot at centre bounces. So too Warner. We could have them both forward as damaging options and the kids in the mids could hardly be worse than what we've been seeing the last 5-6 weeks.

 

[Jeffers]

We could put prime plugger Lockett in the forward line on Saturday night and it still wouldn’t have made a lick of difference.

The rot is in the midfield and has always been.

 

[melbournehammer]

I don't know that Parker is the answer either. In fact I'm confident he's not. I think it has to be something different, a new look. I'd be looking at Sheldrick or Cleary. They're not ideal, still young and raw, but that's unfortunately the point of desperation we are at. I genuinely don't know if Heeney is going to improve, and if not, he's just wasting a spot at centre bounces. So too Warner. We could have them both forward as damaging options and the kids in the mids could hardly be worse than what we've been seeing the last 5-6 weeks.

the bulldogs looked screwed in the midfield until libba went down and they put richards in there. he flogged us home and away (until injured) and wasnt even in their midfield setup at the beginning of the year.

Horse has been so slow to adjust to what has been happening - and whats really happening is that grundy and rowie are no longer able to stop many of the opposition exits and the ball is just going into oppositon (insert name) forward line at will

what we have has got to change

 

[kickthething]

It's extremely frustrating that other teams are just throwing non-midfielders into their midfields for fun - Ed Richards, Hayden Young, Toby Bedford, Trent Rivers, Brent Daniels etc - and getting better returns than we are getting from the group that's been together all year and trained together all summer.

All it took was half a season and it's gone to shit in there again. Heeney looks miles off it and Warner was never near it as an inside mid.

What our our options, only ones I can see are rookies. The group you quote are all experienced AFL level players…We has Paps as a switch hitter, the biggest error I can see is putting Mills in the middle. A Wild card in the middle for us….maybe Wicks? He can stick to a man and tackle, now that is certainly unexpected, here is a massive wild card….Amartey as a big bodied mid. The guy is agile and can have a prescience …. Both those suggestions are not going to fly, we are left with relying on rookies which again is problematic. The only other real option is as suggested being Robert’s. This is not a bad suggestion and perhaps the only realistic option we have, it may rely on Hamling coming in. We have to rely on the experience that is there for better or worse. We simply have run out depth to run through there I reckon.

 

[caesar88]

What our our options, only ones I can see are rookies. The group you quote are all experienced AFL level players…We has Paps as a switch hitter, the biggest error I can see is putting Mills in the middle. A Wild card in the middle for us….maybe Wicks? He can stick to a man and tackle, now that is certainly unexpected, here is a massive wild card….Amartey as a big bodied mid. The guy is agile and can have a prescience …. Both those suggestions are not going to fly, we are left with relying on rookies which again is problematic. The only other real option is as suggested being Robert’s. This is not a bad suggestion and perhaps the only realistic option we have, it may rely on Hamling coming in. We have to rely on the experience that is there for better or worse. We simply have run out depth to run through there I reckon.

I don't disagree. I think that's why it's so frustrating. To get to round 21 of a season and realise the cupboard is actually pretty bare.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Remember when in 2012 we threw Nick Smith in the midfield i do

 

[Dubai Quacker]

What our our options, only ones I can see are rookies. The group you quote are all experienced AFL level players…We has Paps as a switch hitter, the biggest error I can see is putting Mills in the middle. A Wild card in the middle for us….maybe Wicks? He can stick to a man and tackle, now that is certainly unexpected, here is a massive wild card….Amartey as a big bodied mid. The guy is agile and can have a prescience …. Both those suggestions are not going to fly, we are left with relying on rookies which again is problematic. The only other real option is as suggested being Robert’s. This is not a bad suggestion and perhaps the only realistic option we have, it may rely on Hamling coming in. We have to rely on the experience that is there for better or worse. We simply have run out depth to run through there I reckon.

We have 2 options - Cleary and Sheldrick.

Both dedicated inside mids. Both clearly above VFL level.

But whatever reason, they’re not in Horse’s favourites list.

Surely selection integrity demands one (or both) are given an opportunity, given the abysmal state of our current inside work.

(although I am still baffled by Horse’s
comments last week which seemed to alude to Gus carrying a foot injury).

 

[bedford]

We have 2 options - Cleary and Sheldrick.

Both dedicated inside mids. Both clearly above VFL level.

But whatever reason, they’re not in Horse’s favourites list.

Surely selection integrity demands one (or both) are given an opportunity, given the abysmal state of our current inside work.

(although I am still baffled by Horse’s
comments last week which seemed to alude to Gus carrying a foot injury).

We do get confused where we are DQ

 

[BloodySwan]

It's extremely frustrating that other teams are just throwing non-midfielders into their midfields for fun - Ed Richards, Hayden Young, Toby Bedford, Trent Rivers, Brent Daniels etc - and getting better returns than we are getting from the group that's been together all year and trained together all summer.

All it took was half a season and it's gone to shit in there again. Heeney looks miles off it and Warner was never near it as an inside mid.

Heeney has spent most of his career as a forward. Until recently he was Brownlow favourite, not sure I understand what you're getting at

 

[BloodySwan]

Moving players around is just shuffling deck chairs. It won't impact anything.

There is a clear path to beat us, but more importantly our squad has already gone on holiday.

I genuinely don't know how to fix both of those issues in time for September.

 

[JimmySwan]

Moving players around is just shuffling deck chairs. It won't impact anything.

There is a clear path to beat us, but more importantly our squad has already gone on holiday.

I genuinely don't know how to fix both of those issues in time for September.

Sorry mate but I totally disagree.

Look at our forward line, we have no threat at the moment, why not put Heeney up there for the rest of the season?

Put Parker back in the middle permanently (stop making him bloody sub) move Blakey up forward as that hybrid half forward, put Campbell as the running half back flanker.

Thoughts?

 

[caesar88]

Heeney has spent most of his career as a forward. Until recently he was Brownlow favourite, not sure I understand what you're getting at

Heeney trained and prepared to be a mid all summer. It was successful, up to the halfway mark of the season. Now a handful of other teams are heading into finals with much better midfields than ours, despite having midfielders who weren't even intended to be mids this year.

 

[BloodySwan]

Sorry mate but I totally disagree.

Look at our forward line, we have no threat at the moment, why not put Heeney up there for the rest of the season?

Put Parker back in the middle permanently (stop making him bloody sub) move Blakey up forward as that hybrid half forward, put Campbell as the running half back flanker.

Thoughts?

I really don't think it would. Our forward line has barely changed and we were the top scoring team.

Now it's non functioning, because it cannot get the ball.

As someone else said, even Lockett wouldn't perform in this forward 50

 

[JimmySwan]

I really don't think it would. Our forward line has barely changed and we were the top scoring team.

Now it's non functioning, because it cannot get the ball.

As someone else said, even Lockett wouldn't perform in this forward 50

Yeah that is true. Our midfield has completely capitulated, need to get it going ASAP or we are completely stuffed.

 

[caesar88]

My question - When did Horse become this rigid with his set-ups and structures?

Round 1, 2021 vs Brisbane. Since then - almost four seasons on - Horse has refused to deviate from the three-talls forward structure. That's actually completely understandable when you look at our points for vs nearly any other team in that time period. Even this year, as dubious as the tall forwards themselves might've been, it's been hard to deny that they haven't played their bit in us being the highest-scoring team.

But on the weekend one of our talls goes out, and Horse is SO committed to the concept of three-talls that he was actually willing to bring that uncoordinated octopus Ladhams into the same team as TWO OTHER RUCKS. A completely asinine move that was simply never going to work, even if Ladhams was Paul Salmon.

What happened to the Horse that, in 2018, thought, oh Buddy's out? **** it, let's switch it up and see what a forward line with Ben Ronke

25

Ben Ronke

Age

26

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183cm

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80kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.5

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.2

5star

G

1.0

4star

D

9.7

2star

K

6.3

3star

HB

3.3

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

3.7

4star

G

0.0

1star

D

13.2

4star

K

9.8

4star

HB

3.4

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

5.2

5star

G

2.4

5star

, Papley, Rohan, Hayward and Towers all in it can do instead.

Similarly with the midfield. It's totally understandable that he has the utmost faith in the Heeney/Rowbottom/Warner trio. They've gotten us to this point. But they've also gotten us to this point...

Horse seems completely unwilling to compromise on having a banged-up and over-worked Heeney at centre bounces, and a Warner who has had all of his impact in general play and none in the contest this year at centre bounces. I understand we're not up to our eyeballs in midfield options, especially with most of the other options all being at either end of the spectrum (raw in Sheldrick, Cleary; a bit cooked in Parker, Adams)

But FFS Horse. You were once the guy who was flexible enough with structures that you made the regrettable decision to move Aliir Aliir

21

Aliir Aliir

Age

30

Ht

194cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.2

4star

K

9.3

4star

HB

5.9

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

1.9

4star

MG

240.9

4star

D

11.0

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

5.0

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

3star

D

13.0

4star

K

6.4

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

158.4

3star

out of an already-shaky back-line in 2019 to play him in the ruck when Sinclair went down for the year. That individual move didn't work out but at least it showed you were willing to roll a dice!!!

For YEARS he felt no urgency to move Mills out of defence or Heeney out of the forward line, into the positions that fans and even the media were calling for them to be played in. Now the idea of them being played there is just a complete no-go zone?

It just feels like he is scared to rob Peter to pay Paul, so he just sticks to the exact same structures and is willing to play guys who are no good or out of form just to abide by by his structures. This has overall been a very good strategy but when you were 1-4 from your last 5 games and staring down the barrel of pissing a season away and a team that's at one of its lowest ever ebbs, SURELY you just loosen the shackles a little bit and see what else can work.

Sometimes you've gotta just say, **** Peter, and pay Paul!!! It's just an unavoidable part of footy!

Sorry for the rant. Very frustrated.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

I dunno, I am getting confused by this thread.

Longmire threw lots of magnets around last game. None of them came off, but it wasn’t for want of trying.

The whole situation is so confusing. One part of me thinks that the coaches have been tinkering too much and we just need to pick the best player for each position in the structure that served us well, and give them all simple roles to execute.

Another part of me is concerned that teams have found us out, and we need to restructure on the fly.

If we go back the structure that seeved us well, I want to see Hannily given a role as small forward. I want Mills out of the side if he can’t play defence (but would love him in the Rampe role if he could get up for it). I want Campbell back in. And I never want to see three rucks again!

If we mix things up with our structures, I want us to experiment a tonne with our midfield. I want to see Blakey run through there. And Gus. Maybe also Florent. I want Heeney and Warner to spend more time up forward. The only midfield lock is Rowbottom. If Francis plays, I want him to play the interceptor role (a lock down defender he ain’t). Try Logan as a defender / swingman. Make Hamling third tall.

My biggest criticism is that the coaches’ tinkering may be in no man’s land - combining a bit of both and confusing the player and sapping their confidence. I bet if you asked each player before the Port game how the swans were going to win and their confidence in their role, you would have got inconsistent and underwhelming responses.

 

[BloodySwan]

I have a theory about Longmire but it's not ready for public consumption

He's a lizard person and is waiting until they find a tall enough lizard person to take over Cox's body before he will step down?

 

[MR0808]

He's a lizard person and is waiting until they find a tall enough lizard person to take over Cox's body before he will step down?

This is probably the most likely scenario. Explains a lot

 

[TheMase]

But on the weekend one of our talls goes out, and Horse is SO committed to the concept of three-talls that he was actually willing to bring that uncoordinated octopus Ladhams into the same team as TWO OTHER RUCKS. A completely asinine move that was simply never going to work, even if Ladhams was Paul Salmon.

I have to ask… when did McLean become a “ruck”?

He came to us as a forward and has added 2nd ruck rather than being a ruck.

Worth noting that in recent weeks Ladhams has probably been our best key forward in the reserves so if they wanted to keep the structure, he was probably the right option.

 

[MF]

I have to ask… when did McLean become a “ruck”?

He came to us as a forward and has added 2nd ruck rather than being a ruck.

Worth noting that in recent weeks Ladhams has probably been our best key forward in the reserves so if they wanted to keep the structure, he was probably the right option.

Was thinking the same thing when people kept saying we were playing 3 rucks. McLean has always primarily been a forward who chops out in the ruck.

On the weekend it seemed like Ladhams was put into that role instead and McLean played entirely forward.

A bit weird to claim we played 3 rucks when A) One of them isn't a ruck & B) Only 2 of them played in the ruck.

I'm not defending Ladhams inclusion by the way, just pointing out that we weren't actually playing 3 ruckmen.

 

[coach beard]

As i posted a couple of weeks ago ROBERTS

I'd try this

 

[caesar88]

I have to ask… when did McLean become a “ruck”?

He came to us as a forward and has added 2nd ruck rather than being a ruck.

Worth noting that in recent weeks Ladhams has probably been our best key forward in the reserves so if they wanted to keep the structure, he was probably the right option.

I don't think the fact that he's a forward negates the fact he's also a ruck. Both can be true at once. Just as Ladhams playing and having an impact forward in the VFL doesn't mean he's not a ruckman.

McLean is still a near-200cm guy who moves like a ruckman and plays in the ruck.

 

[TheMase]

I don't think the fact that he's a forward negates the fact he's also a ruck. Both can be true at once. Just as Ladhams playing and having an impact forward in the VFL doesn't mean he's not a ruckman.

McLean is still a near-200cm guy who moves like a ruckman and plays in the ruck.

I still find it odd. McLean is a forward who does some rucking, just like Reid was, but I doubt anyone would have ever added Reid as part of “three rucks” in commentary.

 

[caesar88]

I still find it odd. McLean is a forward who does some rucking, just like Reid was, but I doubt anyone would have ever added Reid as part of “three rucks” in commentary.

They're different players though. Reid had the body, agility, athleticism etc. of a forward. McLean has the body, agility, athleticism etc. of a ruckman. He just happens to be better as a forward.

I would even go so far as to say that while I am a big McLean fan, it's very possible the only reason he's been picked in the 22 every week and is seen as arguably the best of our talls, despite kicking less goals, is because he is the best we have at that forward/second ruck role, backing up Grundy and taking contested marks around the ground.

So I think to dismiss the rucking aspect of his game is to dismiss a substantial reason he's in the team.

 

[Dubai Quacker]

They're different players though. Reid had the body, agility, athleticism etc. of a forward. McLean has the body, agility, athleticism etc. of a ruckman. He just happens to be better as a forward.

I would even go so far as to say that while I am a big McLean fan, it's very possible the only reason he's been picked in the 22 every week and is seen as arguably the best of our talls, despite kicking less goals, is because he is the best we have at that forward/second ruck role, backing up Grundy and taking contested marks around the ground.

So I think to dismiss the rucking aspect of his game is to dismiss a substantial reason he's in the team.

Agreed.

I think the pertinent question to ask is why, with so many tall forward / rucks were we unable to even bring the ball to ground, let alone take a contested mark.