Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

[Suspense]

Not sure what point you're trying to make here. Just flooding the zone?

If you are simply disputing that Peterson objects on a practical basis, see the video below. He discusses the "absurdity" of the law, describing it as "practically untenable". From 4.35...

I'll dumb it down.

The pragmatic argument of "how can anyone be expected to remember and juggle all these weird pronouns?" is spurious:

1. As a professor/lecturer, Peterson would not practically be expected to remember every students' name - let alone their preferred pronoun.
2. Neopronouns are only used by a small subset of a small minority. The likelihood of you having to remember thirty different pronouns for thirty different students is practically zero.
3. If, as an educator, you stated that you couldn't practically manage the grammatical challenges of using preferred neopronouns for your non-binary student/s and instead opted for they/them/their/themself or avoiding the use of pronouns altogether, you would not be imprisoned (happy for you to cite any case law that is contrary to this claim).

 

[Frank Bunn]

There is absolutly no reason to think things like Safe Schools are having more impact on children than the religious indoctrination programs which are both significantly more commonly taught and longer lasting.

I went to a Catholic grammar that had De La Salle brothers in penguin outfits. There was barely a mention of religion because they knew hardly any of the kids were buying it. If I remember right there was a couple of prayers in weekly assembly. Then once a year the whole school had attend a mass which was a snoozefest apart from when we got to sing the school song ridiculously loud. Maybe the Jewish and Islamic schools have more religion included.

But I was actually talking about Cool Australia used by 89% of schools. Much of the material is politically neutral but other parts have a anti-capitalist, green-left agenda that is trying to push children towards social and environmental activism. Their own surveys show that after absorbing its materials, 70 to 80 per cent of kids adopt its positions, change their behaviour towards social and environmental issues, and are ready “to take action”. That sounds like indoctrination to me. I suspect there is little pushback on this material within schools because it aligns with teacher's views, who are generally left leaning.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'll dumb it down.

The pragmatic argument of "how can anyone be expected to remember and juggle all these weird pronouns?" is spurious:

1. As a professor/lecturer, Peterson would not practically be expected to remember every students' name - let alone their preferred pronoun.
2. Neopronouns are only used by a small subset of a small minority. The likelihood of you having to remember thirty different pronouns for thirty different students is practically zero.
3. If, as an educator, you stated that you couldn't practically manage the grammatical challenges of using preferred neopronouns for your non-binary student/s and instead opted for they/them/their/themself or avoiding the use of pronouns altogether, you would not be imprisoned (happy for you to cite any case law that is contrary to this claim).

The point is that Peterson also had practical objections. Whether you agree/disagree is beside the point.

 

[Suspense]

But I was actually talking about Cool Australia used by 89% of schools. Much of the material is politically neutral but other parts have a anti-capitalist, green-left agenda that is trying to push children towards social and environmental activism. Their own surveys show that after absorbing its materials, 70 to 80 per cent of kids adopt its positions, change their behaviour towards social and environmental issues, and are ready “to take action”. That sounds like indoctrination to me. I suspect there is little pushback on this material within schools because it aligns with teacher's views, who are generally left leaning.

On the first page I see the $20 Boss Program - which is great - but is basically Shark Tank for kids and Worlds of Work (aka how to be a good, job-ready wage slave). This is hardly anti-capitalist. You can be supportive of capitalist ideologies while still being concerned about the social and environmental issues associated with economies dependant upon on excess consumption.

CSR is part of almost any commerce-related study, post-graduate courses like CA/CPA and comprises roughly a third of the content in large corporate annual reports. Teaching this is hardly a fringe left-wing agenda.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Rule 6: Set your house in perfect order before you criticise the world

Or as stated in its original form (some 2500-odd years prior):

Like a fine flower, beautiful to look at but without scent, fine words are fruitless in a man who does not act in accordance with them. 51
First he should establish himself in what is right. Then if he teaches others, the wise man will not be corrupted. 158
If one would only apply to oneself what one teaches others, when one was well disciplined oneself one could train others. It is oneself who is hard to train. 159

I reread that chapter of his book. He starts off by talking about the Sandy Hook shooters and Columbine gunmen. They had such unshakeable beliefs that they thought they were morally justified in killing dozens of people. He considers what might have led them to those faulty beliefs, goes on to discuss challenging life circumstances, then offers some practical steps on how one might 'clean up your life'.

In the light of his recent struggles, he's probably reflecting on some of the things he's said, including rule 6. I don't think it makes him a hypocrite. He was in a pretty good place for a long time - his work with patients, his lectures, his speaking tours. I look forward to hearing more from him as he recovers and has more to say.

 

[RobbieK]

 

[Toump Ass]

However, in Peterson's own words, he deems in unreasonable, not due to the overwhelming number of gender-neutral pronouns, but because he does not "recognize another person's right to decide what words I'm going to use, especially when the words they want me to use, first of all, are non-standard elements of the English language and they are constructs of a small coterie of ideologically motivated people".

Look I don't claim to be some sort of academic/ book-reading type genius but IMO the counter-argument to this is "what about not being a campaigner?".

I mean using one word over another to make someone a bit more comfortable, is that actually a problem? How about not being a ****ing snowflake and just call people what they want to be called.

It's not like you actually need to memorise a thousand pronouns either- I don't even remember my colleagues names. "Old mate over there reckons..." works fine.

 

[kickazz]

Look I don't claim to be some sort of academic/ book-reading type genius but IMO the counter-argument to this is "what about not being a campaigner?".

I mean using one word over another to make someone a bit more comfortable, is that actually a problem? How about not being a ******* snowflake and just call people what they want to be called.

You could say the same (what about not being a campaigner) when it comes to basic manners as well.

But we don't have governments trying to make it a criminal offence to forget to say please or thank-you.

So it is here. JP was never opposed the terms themselves, and is on the record as saying he would gladly use a person's preferred pronoun. It was the legal compulsion he was opposed to.

 

[Suspense]

You could say the same (what about not being a campaigner) when it comes to basic manners as well.

But we don't have governments trying to make it a criminal offence to forget to say please or thank-you.

It's a workplace obligation for those working for a government organisation or a federally regulated industry. There are many of these mandated obligations - particularly in the public sector.

No one cares what you say at a BBQ on the weekend.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Look I don't claim to be some sort of academic/ book-reading type genius but IMO the counter-argument to this is "what about not being a campaigner?".

I mean using one word over another to make someone a bit more comfortable, is that actually a problem? How about not being a ******* snowflake and just call people what they want to be called.

It's not like you actually need to memorise a thousand pronouns either- I don't even remember my colleagues names. "Old mate over there reckons..." works fine.

His objection is to legislation mandating it, he claims. You could find this out in 5 seconds if you cared to know.

 

[Chief]

My understanding is that he accepts that gender dysphoria exists and would use the preferred pronouns of a transgender person as a matter of politeness and respect, but objects to the government mandating it.

They never mandated it. Peterson is either an idiot or knew exactly what he was doing. Which is worse? Not sure. Maybe the latter.

 

[Chief]

Their own surveys show that after absorbing its materials, 70 to 80 per cent of kids adopt its positions, change their behaviour towards social and environmental issues, and are ready “to take action”. That sounds like indoctrination to me. I suspect there is little pushback on this material within schools because it aligns with teacher's views, who are generally left leaning.

Why don’t you trust children to make up their own mind when comparing what they hear from all over the place and arriving at a position?

Do you think those positions are permanent? Like, for the rest of their lives?

What other information are they hearing that changes their beliefs?

 

[Chief]

His objection is to legislation mandating it, he claims. You could find this out in 5 seconds if you cared to know.

Could you link to this legislation?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Could you link to this legislation?

Bill C-16?

 

[Frank Bunn]

Why don’t you trust children to make up their own mind when comparing what they hear from all over the place and arriving at a position?

They are using fairly well practised indoctrination techniques on children. Making the kids carry out activities that will look to find in their own lives ways of confirming the ideas being taught. There's no way any child could resist this social pressure from a teacher and classmates.

If they were being indoctrinated like this in religions you would be losing your shit.

 

[RobbieK]

They are using fairly well practised indoctrination techniques on children. Making the kids carry out activities that will look to find in their own lives ways of confirming the ideas being taught. There's no way any child could resist this social pressure from a teacher and classmates.

If they were being indoctrinated like this in religions you would be losing your sh*t.

Kids being indoctrinated not to bully each other. Scandalous.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Kids being indoctrinated not to bully each other. Scandalous.

What if one of them is disagreeable and deserves it?

 

[RobbieK]

What if one of them is disagreeable and deserves it?

Sending them to Russia and inducing a coma seems reasonable in that case.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Sending them to Russia and inducing a coma seems reasonable in that case.

Presumably you'd be cool with bullying them despite previously saying bullying is bad. You're flexible like that.

 

[RobbieK]

Presumably you'd be cool with bullying them despite previously saying bullying is bad. You're flexible like that.

One should never be too dogmatic about anything.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

One should never be too dogmatic about anything.

Is that what you call your hypocrisy?

 

[RobbieK]

Is that what you call your hypocrisy?

What is the purpose of this interaction?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

What is the purpose of this interaction?

To remind you that you're FOS. Don't forget.

 

[RobbieK]

To remind you that you're FOS. Don't forget.

That I was once hypocritical means I am always full of shit?

The way you repeatedly and persistently attempt to humiliate me and insult me in this manner, even when I'm not responding to you or addressing points you have raised... It is kind of like bullying isn't it? I would have thought such a perfect soul such as yourself would be above that kind of pettiness... Apparently not.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

That I was once hypocritical means I am always full of sh*t?

The way you repeatedly and persistently attempt to humiliate me and insult me in this manner, even when I'm not responding to you or addressing points you have raised... It is kind of like bullying isn't it? I would have thought such a perfect soul such as yourself would be above that kind of pettiness... Apparently not.

Don't forget.