Toast Jordan Lewis - moved into the centre and on fire

[Roby]

That is true about less time...but also their is a positive it keeps players fresh without them being overwcooked we play a taxing game plan, its a long season and relief is needed.

I personally like having considerable midfield depth that is of elite in contested and clearance ability. It all starts in the middle, get first hands on the ball and the game can be played on your terms.

If Lewis stayed in the midfied we would have rotations of Mitchell, Sewell, Hodge, Shiels, Lewis, Burgoyne.

The better teams in the comp all have considerable midfield talent running through its rotations and so should we.

You don't actually watch Hawthorn games, do you?

Do you know the how our forward line functions? Actually do you have any idea how our team sets up week to week?

No, you don't. No effin idea.

 

[dipper86]

You don't actually watch Hawthorn games, do you?

Do you know the how our forward line functions? Actually do you have any idea how our team sets up week to week?

No, you don't. No effin idea.

Hilarious.....a simple I was owned would have sufficed but your little tantrum will do.


No input, just baseless comments......very amusing.

 

[Hawkzzz]

That is true about less time...but also their is a positive it keeps players fresh without them being overwcooked we play a taxing game plan, its a long season and relief is needed.

I personally like having considerable midfield depth that is of elite in contested and clearance ability. It all starts in the middle, get first hands on the ball and the game can be played on your terms.

If Lewis stayed in the midfied we would have rotations of Mitchell, Sewell, Hodge, Shiels, Lewis, Burgoyne.

The better teams in the comp all have considerable midfield talent running through its rotations and so should we.

Yep, I concur.

 

[Roby]

Hilarious.....a simple I was owned would have sufficed but your little tantrum will do.


No input, just baseless comments......very amusing.

Firstly you say you are happy with the midfield rotations, but you contradict yourself by earlier wanting to have Lewis as permanent midfielder, (yes that's what you said and the implication of your posting in this thread), when Lewis has been playing as a HF/Midfielder. Again you have no clue. I ended with what you call 'baseless comments' the way I did as so not to humiliate yourself. Well Done.

I'm happy to discuss tactics, strategies, match-ups and player rotations with anyone who is actually open-minded rather than some unannounced belligerent fool like yourself, who obviously thinks that the coaching staff at Hawthorn have NFI, while on hand you believe to be The Bible on this topic.

 

[bards]

*Gets Popcorn*

 

[Phil McCreviss]

He is instinctively a midfielder and prefers hunting the ball. I think he has some real positives toiling in the forward line but I think it's the balance they need to get right.

Needs to spend more time in the midfield if his fitness allows him to do that and when required to, drifts forward for a spell. I don't think anyone can say he is a complete waste in the forward line. He isn't the quickest player going around but he often sets up plays and does a lot of work off the ball.

I am totally against him tagging. Too talented to waste on a pure negating role.

 

[Phil McCreviss]

*Gets Popcorn*

I just rang the bell for round 1

 

[bards]

Now I am not saying that this is my view or not, but just because Jordan plays better and gets more of the ball in the midfield doesnt mean that its better for Hawthorn. You have to balance it. If Lewis is in the midfield more, say at Mitchells expense, is what we gain from lewis (if he's better than mitchell), more than what we lose from Lewis's contribution up forward? Now, its quite possible that whoever replaces Lewis up forward is betterr anyhow, but all I am saying is that you can't decide that Jordan plays better in the midfield so play him there, end of story. You have to take into consideration the overall effect on the team. Hell, I would play better in the forward line at Hawthorn than I would in the midfield, but it doesnt mean the team will be better for it.

Oh, FWIW, I like Lewis on ball too.

 

[dipper86]

Firstly you say you are happy with the midfield rotations, but you contradict yourself by earlier wanting to have Lewis as permanent midfielder, (yes that's what you said and the implication of your posting in this thread), when Lewis has been playing as a HF/Midfielder. Again you have no clue. I ended with what you call 'baseless comments' the way I did as so not to humiliate yourself. Well Done.

Oh dear........Lewis hasn't been played as a permanent part of our midfield rotations and if you say otherwise then you're one that has no idea. He has predominantly been played as a defensive forward and a half forward flanker and is sometimes used in very brief stints in the midfield, if you classify that as playing a major part in our midfield rotations then I'll be damned.

Where did i say he should become a starting/permanent midfielder? Last time I checked i said he should become a permanent player in our midfield rotations.(meaning spend more time in the middle) rather than be wasted in the forward line playing as a defensive forward) I haven't contradicted myself...you just have a very basic level of understanding.

I'm happy to discuss tactics, strategies, match-ups and player rotations with anyone who is actually open-minded rather than some unannounced belligerent fool like yourself, who obviously thinks that the coaching staff at Hawthorn have NFI, while on hand you believe to be The Bible on this topic.

Ha ! You're a sheep
Its ok..... we can't have an opinion because the coaches at Hawthorn can't be wrong, I now understand that coaching staffs have never lost there jobs before.

Stop pretending to be important, the fact is you're hiding behind a baseless comment because you don't agree with my opinion, You're not open minded, you're just a petulant child.

 

[Roby]

Oh dear........Lewis hasn't been played as a permanent part of our midfield rotations and if you say otherwise then you're one that has no idea. He has predominantly been played as a defensive forward and a half forward flanker and is sometimes used in very brief stints in the midfield, if you classify that as playing a major part in our midfield rotations then I'll be damned.

Where did i say he should become a starting/permanent midfielder? Last time I checked i said he should become a permanent player in our midfield rotations.(meaning spend more time in the middle) rather than be wasted in the forward line playing as a defensive forward) I haven't contradicted myself...you just have a very basic level of understanding.

Your making no sense.

You just said, he should be permanent player in our rotations but on the other hand you only want him to play a little more in the midfield.
So when he is not in the midfield, where does he do? Go back in defence? Ruck? Cut oranges? So...

You keep saying by your reiteration of 'his completely wasted as a forward' but provide no solution to what he does when he is not in the midfield.

Secondly you completely disregard it and ignore the fact that he's BY FAR the best assist player in the AFL. Not too mention that his delivery in the forward line is the best at club. You completely ignore that, because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Let me show some stats so you support my argument even further, and make a mockery of your online persona.

Since the start of 2010 up until Round 14, Lewis averaged 22.6 disposals per game. In Round 15 he started his new role as a defensive forward since then, (excluding last weekend), 19.6 disposals. A whopping 3 disposals less. Not too mention he has negated the opposition best attacking half backs. Pretty good trade off if you ask me.

Now you're probably thinking because his tagging his output has diminished. Since 2010 up until Round 14, according to Champion Data he averaged 84.9 supercoach points. From Round 15 to the end of 2010 he averaged 91.6 supercoach points. If you include the games this year (excluding last weekend), 86.2 points supercoach points. Still higher.

The third thing, you completely disregard, is he was tagging Dal Santo. Clarkson knew that they would try and get Dal Santo some cheap possessions by pushing him at halfback if he didn't get into the game. That's why Lewis played on him. So while he played midfield he also spent a fair bit of time up half-forward. Which meant he had 6 inside 50's, while Dal Santo had only 1. Lewis still had 2 assists and kicked a crucial goal. Dal Santo apart from his 5 clearances had little impact on the game.

Did you actually watch the game? How often did you see Lewis in the back half? Hardly ever should be your answer. 2 Rebounds from 50, while Dal Santo had 5.

YOU also forget a FOURTH POINT. If Lewis doesn't tag who else tags? Bateman has struggled as a tagger. Other than Shiels we have nobody else. Sewell is the other one but he can't tag everyone, get's beaten overhead. Plus his needed as a first possession player.

Ha ! You're a sheep
Its ok..... we can't have an opinion because the coaches at Hawthorn can't be wrong, I now understand that coaching staffs have never lost there jobs before.

Stop pretending to be important, the fact is you're hiding behind a baseless comment because you don't agree with my opinion, You're not open minded, you're just a petulant child.

No, you can't have an opinion and yes I am a sheep.

By the way, just a little piece of information - Before Lewis was designated his new role he was advised that he adhere to team structures and also work harder on his defensive game or he would be dropped. He was lucky not be dropped last year as he came in as an emergency. He played really well, but unfortunately old habits die hard. Clarko rather than dropping him again, assigned a new role for Lewis. His now a much better and more complete player.

Yes, I make baseless comment's - I feel like giving you another rolleyes but I feel now it's overdone. I'm done.

 

[burner1]

Just throwing it out there but if we had a fully fit midfield (i.e. hodge and burgs fit) would lewis be guaranteed a game? Mitch, sewell, hodge and burgs is enough pure inside power for almost every team + add shiels, savage, bateman, smith and rioli thats a pretty deep midfield before you rotate in some flankers etc.

If we had the choice between having lewis play 75% of the game up forward vs playing a geniuine forward type in e.g. breust (obviously needs a few more games under his belt) or someone with geniuine pace (e.g. smith) what would provide greater benefit to the team?

Roby - I note your points on lewis's defensive side of his game - IMO has historically been part of the issue why we can't play mitch, lewis, hodge, sewell etc in the middle at the same time as a group they dont provide enough defensive pressure through the middle. But sounds like this is being addressed.

 

[dipper86]

Your making no sense.

You just said, he should be permanent player in our rotations but on the other hand you only want him to play a little more in the midfield.

Wow, once again its flying right over your head. A permanent player in our rotations is a player like Shiels or Buygoyne(not in the past couple of games) and Hodge of late, I never said he should become a starting 18 midfielder that plays the same game time as a Mitchell and Sewell. Currently he is just a defensive/ half forward flanker that has very brief stints on ball and in some games he has none.

So when he is not in the midfield, where does he do? Go back in defence? Ruck? Cut oranges? So...

The same place the other midfielders go, when they have a rest they either go the bench or other positions on the ground

You keep saying by your reiteration of 'his completely wasted as a forward' but provide no solution to what he does when he is not in the midfield.

I'll quote my very first post using bold to help you out..

Its about bloody time...I have been calling for this for quite a while...such a talented player that knows how to accumulate the ball wasted in a defensive post in our forward line.....its idiotic.

Secondly you completely disregard it and ignore the fact that he's BY FAR the best assist player in the AFL. Not too mention that his delivery in the forward line is the best at club. You completely ignore that, because you have no idea what you are talking about.

I never ignored that fact, I just suggested that you don't have to be playing in the forward line to have goal assists or to provide delivery inside 50.....You know that midfielders can also have goal assists and they often deliver the ball inside 50.....On the weekend Lewis avg the same amount of goal assists as when he played as forward and he almost doubled his possession rate, not to mention he doubled his inside 50's avg for the year, Of course you just stated that he's the best player at the club at delivering the ball inside 50... so if he's getting the ball inside 50 twice his usual amount.....that would be a good thing wouldn't it?

Let me show some stats so you support my argument even further, and make a mockery of your online persona.

Since the start of 2010 up until Round 14, Lewis averaged 22.6 disposals per game. In Round 15 he started his new role as a defensive forward since then, (excluding last weekend), 19.6 disposals. A whopping 3 disposals less. Not too mention he has negated the opposition best attacking half backs. Pretty good trade off if you ask me.

Was that before or after he was smashed from pillar to post......Lewis was average by his own standards last year, and he was quoted as saying that his Knock Out had affected his output through out the year

Now you're probably thinking because his tagging his output has diminished. Since 2010 up until Round 14, according to Champion Data he averaged 84.9 supercoach points. From Round 15 to the end of 2010 he averaged 91.6 supercoach points. If you include the games this year (excluding last weekend), 86.2 points supercoach points. Still higher.

Wow you got me on supercoach points, on that note we should get Joel Bowden back into AFL.

If goal assists and inside 50's are so important to you....

In 2010 he avg more inside 50's and goal assists from round 1 to 14 than he did being played as a defensive forward in rounds 15 to 22.

The third thing, you completely disregard, is he was tagging Dal Santo. Clarkson knew that they would try and get Dal Santo some cheap possessions by pushing him at halfback if he didn't get into the game. That's why Lewis played on him. So while he played midfield he also spent a fair bit of time up half-forward. Which meant he had 6 inside 50's, while Dal Santo had only 1. Lewis still had 2 assists and kicked a crucial goal. Dal Santo apart from his 5 clearances had little impact on the game.
Did you actually watch the game? How often did you see Lewis in the back half? Hardly ever should be your answer. 2 Rebounds from 50, while Dal Santo had 5.

But Dal Santo played the majority of the time in the midfield correct..... also last time I checked pretty much the majority of the ST Kilda squad was in our half of the field for the majority of the remaining 3 quarters also you haven't considered in the second quarter we moved away from the press and went man on man all over the ground.

YOU also forget a FOURTH POINT. If Lewis doesn't tag who else tags? Bateman has struggled as a tagger. Other than Shiels we have nobody else. Sewell is the other one but he can't tag everyone, get's beaten overhead. Plus his needed as a first possession player.

I never stated that i didn't like him being a midfied tagger, I stated that i don't like him being wasted as a defensive forward especially when there are other players that a less talented that can do the job that have the pace required to pressure opposition defenders coming out of our forward 50.

No, you can't have an opinion and yes I am a sheep.

That would be correct. bahhhahahh

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Just throwing it out there but if we had a fully fit midfield (i.e. hodge and burgs fit) would lewis be guaranteed a game? Mitch, sewell, hodge and burgs is enough pure inside power for almost every team + add shiels, savage, bateman, smith and rioli thats a pretty deep midfield before you rotate in some flankers etc.

If we had the choice between having lewis play 75% of the game up forward vs playing a geniuine forward type in e.g. breust (obviously needs a few more games under his belt) or someone with geniuine pace (e.g. smith) what would provide greater benefit to the team?

Roby - I note your points on lewis's defensive side of his game - IMO has historically been part of the issue why we can't play mitch, lewis, hodge, sewell etc in the middle at the same time as a group they dont provide enough defensive pressure through the middle. But sounds like this is being addressed.

Let's have a bit of perspective here. We are currently two key Backmen down for the season, and have a unfit Hodge still struggling with this persistent Achilles injury.

I think Hodge will feature much more down back (at the least) until he's fully fit and firing. Personally I think he should be played there all year now, what with the injuries we've copped. I think he'll be much more valuable to our team structure, and will help cover the gaping holes left by the absence of Gilham and Stratton.

Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis, Burgoyne, Rioli and Shiels can all rotate through the middle. That's a pretty decent list right there, even without Hodge.

 

[Tommybahamas]

he is so underated

 

[dipper86]

Just throwing it out there but if we had a fully fit midfield (i.e. hodge and burgs fit) would lewis be guaranteed a game? Mitch, sewell, hodge and burgs is enough pure inside power for almost every team + add shiels, savage, bateman, smith and rioli thats a pretty deep midfield before you rotate in some flankers etc.

I'm not sure why you'd bracket Burgs as pure inside power, I know he has clearance ability, but he doesn't do anywhere near the bullocking work of a Sewell or Mitchell, what he posses is a bit more pace which allows him to break away from contested situations.

I think the key to how we setup through the midfield is what we have on the outside through the wings flanks etc, if there is enough pace and ball carrying ability in the likes of Savage Smith Rioli Bateman etc. Then we can get away with certain combinations in the middle whilst still having Lewis running through the middle.

The only time Mitchell Sewell Lewis etc are isolated is at the centre bounce...... thats the only time its really a midfield one on one contested situation, I back our grunt to get the ball out. All those players have the ability to win the ball, if we win first ball we can play the game on our terms.

If we had the choice between having lewis play 75% of the game up forward vs playing a geniuine forward type in e.g. breust (obviously needs a few more games under his belt) or someone with geniuine pace (e.g. smith) what would provide greater benefit to the team?

Thats an excellent question, I'm of the view that our forward line is the root of the majority of our issues. I think its just now starting to be rectified. The ball has been coming out of our defense quickly, efficiently and under very little pressure for quite some time, that will make any midfield look slow, considering our press guards space and not the man, this allows the opposition defenders to hit up targets, through the midfield...... the effectiveness of our press is nullified and easy ball gets over the back.

I think having quick players in our forward line is an absolute must, players that can get to the contest quickly, lock the ball in, apply pressure causing turnovers from opposition defenders coming out of our forward half, players in Breust Rioli Bateman Osbourne Pupolio etc all have some genuine zip. On the weekend they provided that relentless pressure (apart from Rioli) which resulted in the saints not being able to move it out of their back half.

As for Lewis if my memory serves me correct he started on the bench in the Richmond game and came on as a sub for the Melbourne game and played to great affect.... maybe he could be played from the bench used in the midfield rotations with some stints in the forward line. He's too good to be left out of the side.

 

[TheFourPillars]

I posted this elsewhere but i would love to see Lewis play on Kennedy

 

[Wittman10]

Better still, Shiels on Kennedy, given he would have been competing against JK3 for a spot in the best 22.

 

[Roby]

I'm not even going to quote you Dipper, you have just repeated at ad-nauseum and are showing complete ignorance in my post and on this topic. Like I said already, I'm done - with you.

 

[Mr Cyril Rioli]

He actually played a tagging role on dal santo & totally ended up dominating him - shows his quality (just needs to show it more consistantly).

This is without doubt the most exciting part of the game he played. He was moved to the midfield, not because they wanted him there, but rather because they thought he could perform a tagging role on Dal. The game he produced suggests to me that Sewell will be given more freedom in the midfield, leaving Lewis with tag role. This opportunity has obviously arose due to Hodgey's current condition...but seems a plus none the less!

 

[Fluro Boots]

If he can tag and do it well he could be very handy. He's one of our best spreading midifelders i rekcon, as evidenced by his high numbers of marks and disposals when he goes into the middle. If he can do a job on someone and still hurt them going the other way it'd be great.

 

[dipper86]

I'm not even going to quote you Dipper, you have just repeated at ad-nauseum and are showing complete ignorance in my post and on this topic. Like I said already, I'm done - with you.

Oh dear.......welcome to my world, just like myself you have also repeated yourself ad-nauseam, I really do find your contradictions very amusing.

I have countered your argument and in one instance with the use of stats for your so called inside 50's and Goal assists which we both know you hold so dearly and this the best you've come up with, what a weak effort.....now run along.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

w

If he can tag and do it well he could be very handy. He's one of our best spreading midifelders i rekcon, as evidenced by his high numbers of marks and disposals when he goes into the middle. If he can do a job on someone and still hurt them going the other way it'd be great.

..almost like our own version of Kane Cornes?

Why settle for imitations......

 

[Phil McCreviss]

This is without doubt the most exciting part of the game he played. He was moved to the midfield, not because they wanted him there, but rather because they thought he could perform a tagging role on Dal. The game he produced suggests to me that Sewell will be given more freedom in the midfield, leaving Lewis with tag role. This opportunity has obviously arose due to Hodgey's current condition...but seems a plus none the less!

Have to disagree with this. Initial game plan from last week was to take Dal Santo out of the game by using Lewis as his shadow. At quarter time, the game plan was completely rooted so decisions were made to throw the team around and give some of our midfielders creative licence to hunt the ball (you know like back in the good old days of 2008).

Anyway, as it happens, Jordan and the other mids were told to worry less about their opponent and get their hands on the ball first. While he was still running with Dal Santo in the midfield, it was no longer an exclusive shut down role like he has had in the past.

Honestly it is a bit ridiculous that a player capable of getting 30 possessions a game is fluffing around spending most of his energy trying to block and shepherd opposition players. Not his strength so why use him for that? Mind you, I do see some benefits of him in the forward line, just hate the tagging set up. End rant

 

[La Vache]

I just want to recognise another great performance from Lewis. After a tough start on Chapman last night I thought he was superb in shutting down his direct opponent and his second and third quarters in particular were very influential in the clinches.

He has become a favourite of mine and of the coaching staff as well I'm sure. Every week he does his job and pops up at important stages.