Sport Jordan's greatest moments

[footscore]

in celebration of Michael Jordan's 50th birthday, ESPN TV will celebrate the occasion on the February 17 by dedicating an entire show to the great man.

They are asking viewers to vote for their favourite plays and they will then go by public votes and countdown the 50 greatest plays of his entire career.

Here is the link if you wanted to vote http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/8930197/michael-jordan-best-moments
Here are a few plays I happen to like....in no particular order


slam dunk contest windmill dunk


180° layup and 1 v Detroit Pistons


double clutch layup v Nets


that epic layup v Lakers in the playoffs


the famous dunk on Patrick Ewing

 

[footscore]

hangtime buzzer beater in the playoffs


free throw dunk


rock the baby dunk


final shot of his career in a Bulls guernsey


It's Michael Jordan's game!

 

[FredLeDeux]

Thought the thread title was too good to be true.
Wrong Jordan.

 

[winty]

The playoff game where he scored 38 points while suffering from the flu would be right up there.

 

[Stan The Caddy]

A better basketball player may come along one day, but there will never be a better winner.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

The playoff game where he scored 38 points while suffering from the flu would be right up there.

Hangover.

A better basketball player may come along one day, but there will never be a better winner.

There already has been.

 

[footscore]

Kobe should never be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan

Chicago were a joke until MJ single-handedly turned the team around while Kobe walked into royalty and it's been that way ever since, until today, as they are a complete joke of a team due to a mentally unstable CEO and an aging list that still thinks it can contend with freaks 25-28yrs of age

 

[RiggoDiesel44]

Kobe should never be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan

Chicago were a joke until MJ single-handedly turned the team around while Kobe walked into royalty and it's been that way ever since, until today, as they are a complete joke of a team due to a mentally unstable CEO and an aging list that still thinks it can contend with freaks 25-28yrs of age

Single-handedly? Mmmmmm....not quite. Jordan started playing for the Bulls 1984-85 with guys like Dave Corzine, Quentin Dailey, Juwann Oldham, Orlando Woolridge, Steve Colter, etc. Not awful players, but Bulls weren't a threat. It really wasn't until 1987-88 that the Bulls started to move the needle past mediocrity. Two key players drafted....Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. Pax was already there and the following season the Bulls picked up Craig Hodges and traded away Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright. NOW...things really started happening, finally getting past the classless Pistons in 1991 and you know the rest.

Jordan didn't do it alone. For the first few years, he'd pack arenas, giving the opposing fans a great show.....and the Bulls would lose. Once management got him some better surrounding players, they started winning titles. Lots of them.

 

[winty]

Single-handedly? Mmmmmm....not quite. Jordan started playing for the Bulls 1984-85 with guys like Dave Corzine, Quentin Dailey, Juwann Oldham, Orlando Woolridge, Steve Colter, etc. Not awful players, but Bulls weren't a threat. It really wasn't until 1987-88 that the Bulls started to move the needle past mediocrity. Two key players drafted....Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. Pax was already there and the following season the Bulls picked up Craig Hodges and traded away Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright. NOW...things really started happening, finally getting past the classless Pistons in 1991 and you know the rest.

Jordan didn't do it alone. For the first few years, he'd pack arenas, giving the opposing fans a great show.....and the Bulls would lose. Once management got him some better surrounding players, they started winning titles. Lots of them.

Credit has to go to Phil Jackson for getting Jordan to toe the team line more than what he did under his previous coaches too. Would have been extremely difficult to persuade someone like Jordan who felt he was so being held back by his teammates, in particular Bill Cartwright and Will Perdue, to actually rely more on those teammates in order to reach the promised land, so to speak.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

One of the games that summed Jordan up was when Rodman got a suspension for head-butting a ref. The Bulls looked severely challenged for rebounds without Rodman in the lineup, as rebounding was never really Longley's go either and players like Kukoc weren't going to fill the void there. So Jordan grabbed 16 boards in the first game without Rodman and averaged something like 12 until Rodman returned. And the fact that barely anyone even remembers this makes it a signature (extended) performance in his career. He just willed himself to make up as much of the difference as he could. It took him a while in his career to finally get it, but once he did, he'd practically kill himself to win a game.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

And speaking of Kukoc...the defensive performance by Jordan and Pippen on Kukoc in the 1992 Olympics has to be seen to be believed. Jordan and Pippen's hatred of Jerry Krause (Chicago's GM) is well known. And Kukoc was symbolic to them of a player that Krause was moving heaven and earth to try to get to Chicago, while they continued to low-ball their two stars with contract offers. So Jordan and Pippen decided they were going to lock Kukoc down in the preliminary round game against Croatia. He barely even touched the ball.

Then there's the way he would go out and annihilate any player who had been annonted as the 'next Jordan' (Dennis Hopson/Jerry Stackhouse). Or any player he held a grudge against (Reggie Theus).

Those sort of things sum up Jordan better than anything. He was vicious. If he had been a nice guy, he wouldn't have been anywhere near as good.

 

[topic97]

The playoff game where he scored 38 points while suffering from the flu would be right up there.

Yeah the "Flu Game" against Utah epitomises the Jordan legacy for me.
Just the fact that he was totally gone before the game & to come out against the old enemy to just will the Bulls over the line to put them in a near un-beatable series lead.
And just his cool head to shoot the clutch basket to win games - if there ever was a player that you would want to bet your house on him making a last second buzzer beater it was him.

One thing a mate always said, who is a massive Lakers fan may I add, was that the difference between Jordan & Kobe on an off day is polar opposites.
If Kobe is having an off day shooting, he will just keep on shooting regardless of if he found touch or not.
Compare that to Jordan on an off shooting day, he would stop trying to take every shot & start bringing teammates into the game.
Have a look at Jordans stats where he has had low scoring games but then have a look at his assists & steals!!

And lets not get started on LeBron.... not even in the same league as the above mentioned two.... never will be!!

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

If Kobe is having an off day shooting, he will just keep on shooting regardless of if he found touch or not.
Compare that to Jordan on an off shooting day, he would stop trying to take every shot & start bringing teammates into the game.
Have a look at Jordans stats where he has had low scoring games but then have a look at his assists & steals!!

I understand what you mean, but to be honest, that was more Pippen's go. Jordan would look to help out in other ways when his shot was off, but he'd also get points by willing himself to the basket, taking a hammering and drawing fouls.

And lets not get started on LeBron.... not even in the same league as the above mentioned two.... never will be!!

He's just turned 28 and has arguably already had a better career than Bryant. Bryant isn't even in the same league as James. At the moment, no-one is, frankly. He hasn't been better than Jordan yet (doesn't have Jordan's killer instinct), but he's the only player in my lifetime with the potential to go past him. 30,000 points, 10,000 rebounds and 10,000 assists in his career is not out of the question (absolutely insane - only five players have broken the assists mark and none have even cracked 20k points). Neither is 15 x All-NBA teams, 10 x All-Defensive teams, 18 x All Star games and more championships and MVPs than Jordan (let alone Kobe). And, unlike Jordan and Kobe, he'd be fun to play with (ask Kwame Brown how much fun he had playing with Jordan).

 

[topic97]

Sure, James may possibly go past Jordan statistically, but stats don't make him a better player. Especially when you factor in that Jordan quit in the prime of his career only to come back and reclaim his position as the best player in the league!

Kinda like saying that mualitaran is a better spin bowler than warne just because he has more wickets, which we all know isn't the case.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron is awesome & I love watching him play, but he just lacks that "holy shit, did he just do that"?! factor that Jordan possssed.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Sure, James may possibly go past Jordan statistically, but stats don't make him a better player. Especially when you factor in that Jordan quit in the prime of his career only to come back and reclaim his position as the best player in the league!

Kinda like saying that mualitaran is a better spin bowler than warne just because he has more wickets, which we all know isn't the case.

Maybe, if Murali finished his career top five all-time in wickets and catches and top 20 all-time in runs.The numbers don't mean everything, but when your lifetime stats are going to be that much better than anyone who's ever played the game, they mean something.

It's not just that. He's going to have the numbers, but he's also going to be superior in so many areas of the game. He is a much better rebounder, a slightly better (and much more willing) passer, he's more athletic (as crazy as that sounds), he's becoming an absolute beast on the low block (even if they put a big man on him down there, no-one can stop him), he's about level defensively and he's bigger than Karl Malone was. If his shooting continues to improve, it's going to be hard to mount a case for Jordan, because LeBron is just naturally better in so many areas.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron is awesome & I love watching him play, but he just lacks that "holy shit, did he just do that"?! factor that Jordan possssed.

Couldn't disagree more, sorry. LeBron has at least one of those moments in pretty much every single game he plays. The one clear edge Jordan still has is competitiveness and that's why he still should be considered a better player. James wants to win; Jordan wanted to destroy his opposition...big difference. It's why there is no way in hell Jordan would have signed with Miami and teamed up with Wade. Jordan would never have wanted to play on a rival's team; his sole focus would have been to kill that rival.

 

[cayze]

And lets not get started on LeBron.... not even in the same league as the above mentioned two.... never will be!!

LeBron quickly approaching Kobe and will retire comfortably better than him IMO.

Kobe heavily overrated compared to LeBron due to the amount of rings people forget Shaq carried LA in Kobe's early rings

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

LeBron quickly approaching Kobe and will retire comfortably better than him IMO.

Kobe heavily overrated compared to LeBron due to the amount of rings people forget Shaq carried LA in Kobe's early rings

If Kobe had played for the 2007 Cavs (which was the prime of his career), there is no way they would have made it to the Finals. Sure, the Spurs swept them, but it was an amazing achievement by LeBron to carry such a mediocre team that far. Swap Kobe and LeBron now and the Lakers would be at the top of the West (or thereabouts); while the Heat would certainly not be better than they currently are and could well be a complete mess, with Wade and Bryant trying to figure out how to co-exist.

 

[cayze]

If Kobe had played for the 2007 Cavs (which was the prime of his career), there is no way they would have made it to the Finals. Sure, the Spurs swept them, but it was an amazing achievement by LeBron to carry such a mediocre team that far. Swap Kobe and LeBron now and the Lakers would be at the top of the West (or thereabouts); while the Heat would certainly not be better than they currently are and could well be a complete mess, with Wade and Bryant trying to figure out how to co-exist.

Completely agree, for me Lebron's best is already better than Kobe's and I still see Lebron improving, just needs a couple more rings to make it unquestionable.

 

[footscore]

He's just turned 28 and has arguably already had a better career than Bryant. Bryant isn't even in the same league as James. At the moment, no-one is, frankly. He hasn't been better than Jordan yet (doesn't have Jordan's killer instinct), but he's the only player in my lifetime with the potential to go past him. 30,000 points, 10,000 rebounds and 10,000 assists in his career is not out of the question (absolutely insane - only five players have broken the assists mark and none have even cracked 20k points). Neither is 15 x All-NBA teams, 10 x All-Defensive teams, 18 x All Star games and more championships and MVPs than Jordan (let alone Kobe). And, unlike Jordan and Kobe, he'd be fun to play with (ask Kwame Brown how much fun he had playing with Jordan).

wow!
Huge call but LeBron is not better than Kobe (just yet) and to be perfectly frank, if I could choose either player to seal a game with 1 minute remaining in the playoffs, I'm putting my money on Kobe even though he's now 34 years of age and slowing down.
He's consistently been clutch time and time again but as time goes by...only natural for people to forget.

People going nuts over LeBrons current 30 ppg streak but what about Kobes 40 + pts in 13 straight games and 4 straight 50+ games or averaging 42 points for entire month, not to mention the 6 rings.

LeBron needed the help of free agency to get him a ring and go back to playoffs in his first season against the Mavs, he completely went back into his shell and looked for a place to hide when the pressure was at an optimum, Dirk did not, Dirk thrived in the moment and got the Mavs a championship due to his clutch shooting and ability to stand tall in the moment.
This is what separates Bryant from his peers and it's something only very few players have, Durant, Rose, Nowitzki are prime examples while LeBron has only stepped up the last 18 months and now he's better than Bryant who's done that for a decade?

 

[footscore]

I know Thunder have been completely embarrassed by the Heat this season in those two encounters but Durant is going to own them in the playoffs, it's inevitable, he's the epitome of mental strength and I doubt LeBron will be playing at this very same level in a few months time.

Nothing against LeBron, I think he's the no.1 player in the game right now but I reckon Durant will crave all pressure in those final minutes while LeBron will look to dish it off or have Wade shoot the big basket.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

wow!
Huge call but LeBron is not better than Kobe (just yet) and to be perfectly frank, if I could choose either player to seal a game with 1 minute remaining in the playoffs, I'm putting my money on Kobe even though he's now 34 years of age and slowing down.
He's consistently been clutch time and time again but as time goes by...only natural for people to forget.

Anyone in their right mind would take Reggie Miller over Karl Malone to seal a game with one minute remaining in the playoffs. Doesn't make Miller a better player.

Carmelo Anthony is one of the best pressure performers in the NBA and has been since his rookie year (far, far better in this regard than Kobe). But no-one ever talks about 'Melo being some sort of super clutch performer. I just don't understand why Bryant gets all these accolades as an pressure performer...he's not. The last time they won the championship, they took out game seven in spite of him (6-24 from the field; 0-6 from 3pt; two assists). I've been reading about Bryant since he was a high schooler and was one of three recruits who was tipped to be able to follow Kevin Garnett's lead of going straight to the pros (Tim Thomas and Ronnie Fields - Garnett's former teammate at Farragut - were the other two...that didn't work out so well). I'm quite aware of what he has done throughout his career.

People going nuts over LeBrons current 30 ppg streak but what about Kobes 40 + pts in 13 straight games and 4 straight 50+ games or averaging 42 points for entire month, not to mention the 6 rings.

I don't. I go nuts over the fact that he's clearly been the best player in the league for several years now; he's already locked up his fourth MVP this season at age 28 (Kobe has one career MVP) and, as mentioned, the non-Shaq championships that Kobe has won would have had the same result with LeBron (there is no way that James wouldn't have won the championship in 2009 and 2010, if he had Bynum, Gasol, Artest, Odom and Fisher on his team...not a chance). But would Kobe have been able to take the 2007 Cavaliers to the championship series, with his core teammates Larry Hughes, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Sasha Pavlovic and Donyell Marshall? I don't think so. Kobe has missed the playoffs with better Lakers teams than that.

LeBron needed the help of free agency to get him a ring

He really didn't. He would have got one eventually. He was on the cusp numerous times with Cleveland, with, as already mentioned, an average at best supporting cast. The light bulb has gone off. It's over. Jordan was an assassin; James is like a tsunami. He has always been willing to let Wade take over, when he felt it was appropriate, which could be a positive or a negative, depending on how you look at it.

Bryant, on the other hand, forced the Lakers to trade Shaq, when he still had about four years left in him (James would never have done that) and was part of a team that was going absolutely nowhere for years (this was around the time that Bryant had his 81 point, 2 assist game...seriously, do you think any of his teammates enjoyed playing with Bryant?), until they were saved by one of the shadiest trades in the history of the NBA.

Let's be clear: Bryant has never won anything without an absolutely outstanding team around him. And even when he has had that, he's often found ways to **** it up.

and go back to playoffs in his first season against the Mavs, he completely went back into his shell and looked for a place to hide when the pressure was at an optimum, Dirk did not, Dirk thrived in the moment and got the Mavs a championship due to his clutch shooting and ability to stand tall in the moment.

9-27 from the field and 1-7 from 3pt in the deciding game from Dirk (9-15 for LeBron, who admittedly, should have been far more assertive). Going back to your original point, it was Jason Terry, who was responsible for closing the series out for them, a guy with zero all star games to his credit.

This is what separates Bryant from his peers and it's something only very few players have, Durant, Rose, Nowitzki are prime examples while LeBron has only stepped up the last 18 months and now he's better than Bryant who's done that for a decade?

Nothing separates Bryant from his peers. He's a great player, but he's never been that much better - if at all- than (at various stages):O'Neal, Iverson, Duncan, Garnett and now James. He has often been brought up in trade rumours throughout his career, where the Lakers have been willing to move him for the right price. The Cavs were never prepared to trade LeBron, even when it was almost certain that he was going to leave. Again...three MVPs (soon to be four) for the 28 year old and one for the 34 year old. Which one is separated from his peers again?

 

[footscore]

Anyone in their right mind would take Reggie Miller over Karl Malone to seal a game with one minute remaining in the playoffs. Doesn't make Miller a better player.

Miller was a perimeter shooter while Malone was a PF who spent most time in the paint so why would you compare a pure shooter with a hook shooting forward?

Carmelo Anthony is one of the best pressure performers in the NBA and has been since his rookie year (far, far better in this regard than Kobe). But no-one ever talks about 'Melo being some sort of super clutch performer. I just don't understand why Bryant gets all these accolades as an pressure performer...he's not. The last time they won the championship, they took out game seven in spite of him (6-24 from the field; 0-6 from 3pt; two assists).

I don't get this post either because you are stating Anthony is one of the best players in the game right?
You reckon he's a clutch performer and all but you said LeBron has 3 MVP's while Kobe has 1 while Melo has 0 so if Melo is a good as you suggest, why no MVP awards?
Seems like a bit of contradicting there.
Carmelo Anthony is not even close to being classed a clutch performer and anyone who knows basketball will agree, the guy is Jekyll and Hyde, arrogant, selfish baller of the highest level, in fact, here is his playoff record in a nutshell http://content.usatoday.com/communi...ys-playoff-record-is-nbas-worst-in-20-years/1

I don't. I go nuts over the fact that he's clearly been the best player in the league for several years now; he's already locked up his fourth MVP this season at age 28 (Kobe has one career MVP) and, as mentioned, the non-Shaq championships that Kobe has won would have had the same result with LeBron (there is no way that James wouldn't have won the championship in 2009 and 2010, if he had Bynum, Gasol, Artest, Odom and Fisher on his team...not a chance). But would Kobe have been able to take the 2007 Cavaliers to the championship series, with his core teammates Larry Hughes, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Sasha Pavlovic and Donyell Marshall? I don't think so. Kobe has missed the playoffs with better Lakers teams than that.

You can argue about the class of players Lakers had and that part I do agree with but you cannot sweep 2 finals MVP's under the carpet as that's the equivalent of the Norm Smith Medal, he was arguably MVP in the 2000 playoffs also averaging 30 ppg, 7 rebounds and 6 assists per game and helped Lakers to their 1st championship under the Bryant era.
LeBron won his first one in last year's playoff series but if it was not for Wade in game 3 and 4 against the Indiana Pacers, Heat would have been eliminated so LeBron can thank his mate for saving his arse on that one.

He really didn't. He would have got one eventually. He was on the cusp numerous times with Cleveland, with, as already mentioned, an average at best supporting cast. The light bulb has gone off. It's over. Jordan was an assassin; James is like a tsunami. He has always been willing to let Wade take over, when he felt it was appropriate, which could be a positive or a negative, depending on how you look at it.

Cleveland were on the cusp numerous times?

in 05-06 the Cavs made the 2nd round but were eliminated by the Pistons.
06-07 they made it to the final but didn't even win a single game against the Spurs so that's not exactly on the cusp, if they had of won at least 2 games then yeh it's a different story.
07-08 the Cavs made the 2nd round but were eliminated again by the Celtics.
08-09 Cavs made the third round but got beaten in the 6th game.
09-10 made 2nd round but again bundled out by Pierce, Allen (clutch performers in playoffs).

A very good team yes but on the cusp of becoming champions?
Not even close!

Bryant, on the other hand, forced the Lakers to trade Shaq, when he still had about four years left in him (James would never have done that) and was part of a team that was going absolutely nowhere for years (this was around the time that Bryant had his 81 point, 2 assist game...seriously, do you think any of his teammates enjoyed playing with Bryant?), until they were saved by one of the shadiest trades in the history of the NBA.

Absurd comment, the head coach retired halfway through the season and in came another who didn't get along with the players (namely Kobe), Shaq had an offer to leave so he took it but Kobe is not the CEO of the Lakers and I don't believe he would handle player trades either.

9-27 from the field and 1-7 from 3pt in the deciding game from Dirk (9-15 for LeBron, who admittedly, should have been far more assertive). Going back to your original point, it was Jason Terry, who was responsible for closing the series out for them, a guy with zero all star games to his credit.

I'm not going to argue about Terry as he's a proven match winner in his own right but come on man!
Dirk is arguably the greatest big man scorer of all time, his playoff stats are a testament to his ability to hit the final minute shots after shot after shot so don't bring up one particular in which Terry got the ball first and hit the winner, you'll see soon enough what I mean with Dirk if the Mavs make this years playoffs.

Nothing separates Bryant from his peers. He's a great player, but he's never been that much better - if at all- than (at various stages):O'Neal, Iverson, Duncan, Garnett and now James. He has often been brought up in trade rumours throughout his career, where the Lakers have been willing to move him for the right price. The Cavs were never prepared to trade LeBron, even when it was almost certain that he was going to leave. Again...three MVPs (soon to be four) for the 28 year old and one for the 34 year old. Which one is separated from his peers again?

It will be disputed for a while but Kobe is still ahead of LeBron while Jordan is light years ahead of these guys again.
Let's hope for LeBron's sake they do not have to face either one of the Bulls, Thunder, Mavs or Pacers because if they do....it will not be LeBron closing it out.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Miller was a perimeter shooter while Malone was a PF who spent most time in the paint so why would you compare a pure shooter with a hook shooting forward?

Hook shooting forward?

It's a point about being the better player under pressure doesn't necessarily make you a better player overall. Switch Miller for Horry then and the point stands.

I don't get this post either because you are stating Anthony is one of the best players in the game right?
You reckon he's a clutch performer and all but you said LeBron has 3 MVP's while Kobe has 1 while Melo has 0 so if Melo is a good as you suggest, why no MVP awards?
Seems like a bit of contradicting there.
Carmelo Anthony is not even close to being classed a clutch performer and anyone who knows basketball will agree, the guy is Jekyll and Hyde, arrogant, selfish baller of the highest level, in fact, here is his playoff record in a nutshell http://content.usatoday.com/communi...ys-playoff-record-is-nbas-worst-in-20-years/1

He is one of the most efficient players in the league in the closing minutes of tight games. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Carmelo Anthony actually has the numbers to prove that his shooting goes up and his scoring goes up when the game is close in the final minutes and he has done this for his entire career. Bryant's numbers go the other way. See this article from Anthony's last year in Denver:

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/04/all-clutch-team/index.html

'Melo is so good in the clutch that you wonder why he'd rather play for the Nets or the Knicks than the Nuggets, since he probably would go backward (at least initially) in the number of big games and clutch moments. Of course, wherever Anthony plays, he figures to be The Man in the closing seconds of any game still to be had. Said Collins: "Carmelo has had a ton of game-winners for George [Karl, Denver coach] the last few years."
Last season, the Nuggets forward averaged 47.0 points per 48 clutch minutes and averaged 21.7 free throws -- compared to his lifetime pro-rated average of 10.4 free throws per 48. In 2008-09, Anthony was even better, producing at a rate of 54.4 points in the clutch with 24 trips to the line. And the 80 percent lifetime foul shooter has been better, late than early, both years.

Bryant makes a lot of game-winning shots because he takes a lot of (potentially) game-winning shots. But as 82games.com noted in a study of "game-winning shot opportunities" -- defined as 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball trailing by one or two points -- Bryant missed a league-high 42 such shots from 2003-04 through the first half of 2008-09, playoffs included. So his actual success rate isn't as grand as his reputation.
But there's a chicken-or-egg element to this, too, because Bryant gets to talk a lot of L.A.'s late-game shots because he has made many in the past. "You see that and go, 'Wow, this guy rises to the occasion most nights. And completes,' " Toronto coach Jay Triano said. But Bryant's low assists number (3.6) in the clutch suggests he could grow as a decoy and creator for others.

Who sounds like the better pressure player there? It's not all about wins and losses. Anthony has always raised his game whenever the heat has been on, going back to his season at Syracuse.

You can argue about the class of players Lakers had and that part I do agree with but you cannot sweep 2 finals MVP's under the carpet as that's the equivalent of the Norm Smith Medal, he was arguably MVP in the 2000 playoffs also averaging 30 ppg, 7 rebounds and 6 assists per game and helped Lakers to their 1st championship under the Bryant era.

I'll stop you there. That is just completely wrong. Maybe the best Finals performance by any player in the past 30 years (really only Jordan in 1993 has an argument):
Shaq: 38ppg, 16.7rpg, 2.3apg, 2.7bpg, 1.0spg, 61.1 fg%
Kobe: 15.6ppg, 4.6rpg, 4.2apg, 1.4bpg, 1.0spg, 36.7 fg%

Hopefully you were thinking of some other Finals series...but it wasn't close the other two times either.

LeBron won his first one in last year's playoff series but if it was not for Wade in game 3 and 4 against the Indiana Pacers, Heat would have been eliminated so LeBron can thank his mate for saving his arse on that one.

Again...game 7 of the 2010 finals. Look at Bryant's game. This wasn't the conference semi-finals; it was the single most important game of the season. Then there's the 2006 playoffs against Phoenix, when, for whatever reason, after a pretty standard first half in game 7 from Kobe and a hot game by his opponent (Leandro Barbosa), he literally stopped trying in the second half. Any disappearing acts by LeBron pale in comparison.

http://www.nba.com/games/20060506/LALPHX/recap.html

Coming off the bench, Barbosa scored 15 points in the first half as the Suns shot 60 percent (25-of-42) and opened a 60-45 advantage. They led by at least 14 points the entire second half.

Barbosa made 10-of-12 shots overall in 30 minutes.

But in a puzzling disappearing act, Bryant deferred to his teammates in the second half Saturday, taking just three shots and scoring one point on a technical free throw.

The Heat also would have lost to the Celtics if James didn't single-handedly destroy them in the last two games of the series (down 2-3 and he puts up 76 points and 27 rebounds in two win-or-go-home games).

There is a long list of NBA legends having embarrassing playoff performances ('Tragic' Johnson; Isiah not calling a timeout, then throwing the inbound pass to Bird; Jordan getting stripped by Nick Anderson; Shaq getting swept time after time; Olajuwon being thrown out of his first NBA Finals with Houston; and of course, Kobe's airball-fest against the Jazz). What matters is how they responded.

You need to win 16 playoff games (and probably play in at least 20) to win the championship. Chances are you're not going to be able to do it by yourself every night.

Cleveland were on the cusp numerous times?

in 05-06 the Cavs made the 2nd round but were eliminated by the Pistons.
06-07 they made it to the final but didn't even win a single game against the Spurs so that's not exactly on the cusp, if they had of won at least 2 games then yeh it's a different story.
07-08 the Cavs made the 2nd round but were eliminated again by the Celtics.
08-09 Cavs made the third round but got beaten in the 6th game.
09-10 made 2nd round but again bundled out by Pierce, Allen (clutch performers in playoffs).

A very good team yes but on the cusp of becoming champions?
Not even close!

The NBA's best regular season record in both of James' final two seasons.

Absurd comment, the head coach retired halfway through the season and in came another who didn't get along with the players (namely Kobe), Shaq had an offer to leave so he took it but Kobe is not the CEO of the Lakers and I don't believe he would handle player trades either.

I guess you haven't read Phil Jackson's book after his first stint with the Lakers then, a book which absolutely rips Bryant apart? Or Shaq's book about how everything went down? Because that's exactly what happened; it's not even up for debate.

http://www.bareknucks.com/bashing-kobe-excerpts-from-“the-last-season-a-team-in-search-of-its-soul”-by-phil-jackson

I'm not going to argue about Terry as he's a proven match winner in his own right but come on man!
Dirk is arguably the greatest big man scorer of all time, his playoff stats are a testament to his ability to hit the final minute shots after shot after shot so don't bring up one particular in which Terry got the ball first and hit the winner, you'll see soon enough what I mean with Dirk if the Mavs make this years playoffs.

Nowitzki has never been known as a particularly good player in the playoffs. By that I mean, he doesn't raise his game. This goes back to 2003 when didn't take the floor for the last three game of the Western Conference Finals after a getting a knock to his knee. Ever since, people have wondered how bad it really was and whether Jordan, Duncan, Bird, or yes, Kobe would have sat it out in the same circumstances. He was truly awful in the 2006 Finals. He had the embarrassment of being presented the 2007 MVP, after his #1 seeded Mavs were smashed by the Golden State Warriors in the first round. He was pretty good (nothing too special for him) in the 2011 Finals, but if it hadn't been for Terry, it would have gone to game 7.

It will be disputed for a while but Kobe is still ahead of LeBron while Jordan is light years ahead of these guys again.

Your opinion. LeBron is at the stage (and age) Jordan was when he won his first championship. I'd have 28 year old LeBron ahead of 28 year old Jordan. Since you and I would probably argue over the colour of grass, I'm not really that fussed.

Let's hope for LeBron's sake they do not have to face either one of the Bulls, Thunder, Mavs or Pacers because if they do....it will not be LeBron closing it out.

I guess we'll see (although you must be joking about the Mavs).

 

[footscore]

I'll stop you there. That is just completely wrong. Maybe the best Finals performance by any player in the past 30 years (really only Jordan in 1993 has an argument):
Shaq: 38ppg, 16.7rpg, 2.3apg, 2.7bpg, 1.0spg, 61.1 fg%
Kobe: 15.6ppg, 4.6rpg, 4.2apg, 1.4bpg, 1.0spg, 36.7 fg%

Kobe averaged 29.5 ppg in the 2000-2001 playoffs so where did you get this 15ppg from?
Here's a detailed log of his stats http://www.lakersuniverse.com/kobe/kobe_bryant_stats200001.htm
As for your quote about us arguing over grass, mate! All I have ever done is give my opinions but you have always turned most of my posts into a 2 page quoting fiasco.

If you really rate Carmelo Anthony as highly as you say you do then sorry MC, you need to watch more Knicks games to get an idea of a complete player as opposed to a jump shooting freak who wouldn't have a clue what an assist or the word defense means (it's why he will never be anything in playoffs)
And you say you would take a 28 yr old LeBron over a 28 Jordan
That's an incredible statement MC because you are prepared to take a bloke who's been fairly timid deep into matches over the course of his entire career over a guy who would get better and better with age, not to mention he also played in an era where physicality was normal, they use to literally belt Jordan and he'd pick himself up and get on with the game by dunking in their face.
LeBron gets intimated by teams like the Pacers, Celtics and the Spurs to name a few, teams with length who can put him on the foul line making him think twice before driving to the hoop.

As for the Mavs, well they are old sure, but they have plenty of experience and are well drilled and it's no coincidence that since Dirk Nowitzki returned from injury, they have began climbing the Western conference as he's getting back to his best with extended minutes.
The inclusion of Mayo is another reason why they will be tough to beat in a best of 7 series but doubt they will even make playoffs this year as they are behind the 8 ball as we speak.
my pick is the Thunder anyways, Thunder with Durant and Westbrook will defeat the Heat because as I mentioned above, Durant is pure clutch and will nail the shots that LeBron won't be able to hit when it truly matters most.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Kobe averaged 29.5 ppg in the 2000-2001 playoffs so where did you get this 15ppg from?
Here's a detailed log of his stats http://www.lakersuniverse.com/kobe/kobe_bryant_stats200001.htm

he was arguably MVP in the 2000 playoffs also averaging 30 ppg, 7 rebounds and 6 assists per game and helped Lakers to their 1st championship under the Bryant era.

The 2001 playoffs were played in 2001. The 2000 playoffs were played in 2000. And although I assumed you were talking about the Finals (since there is no playoff MVP award), either way and either year, Shaq was miles ahead (those were the 2000 NBA Finals statistics):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2000.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001.html

As for your quote about us arguing over grass, mate! All I have ever done is give my opinions but you have always turned most of my posts into a 2 page quoting fiasco.

Arguing about us arguing...? I have to admit that raised a smile.

If you really rate Carmelo Anthony as highly as you say you do then sorry MC, you need to watch more Knicks games to get an idea of a complete player as opposed to a jump shooting freak who wouldn't have a clue what an assist or the word defense means (it's why he will never be anything in playoffs)

He is a pressure performer. That's all I've said. Feel free to refute that, rather than talking about whether he is a complete player or not.

And you say you would take a 28 yr old LeBron over a 28 Jordan
That's an incredible statement MC because you are prepared to take a bloke who's been fairly timid deep into matches over the course of his entire career over a guy who would get better and better with age, not to mention he also played in an era where physicality was normal, they use to literally belt Jordan and he'd pick himself up and get on with the game by dunking in their face.

When he turned 28, Jordan hadn't won a championship (hadn't even been to the finals) and had one MVP. LeBron turned 28 two months ago. By any measure, James is well ahead at the same age. As for the 'got better with age', well that has absolutely nothing to do with comparing them at 28 years old (quite the opposite). The pressure is on James to raise his game to the level that Jordan did. I wouldn't bet against him.

LeBron gets intimated by teams like the Pacers, Celtics and the Spurs to name a few, teams with length who can put him on the foul line making him think twice before driving to the hoop.

45 points (on 19-26 shooting), 15 rebounds and 5 assists in a must win game 6 at Boston suggests maybe he's over this 'intimation'. Wade scored 17 points. No-one else was in double figures. An absolute clinic.

As for the Mavs, well they are old sure, but they have plenty of experience and are well drilled and it's no coincidence that since Dirk Nowitzki returned from injury, they have began climbing the Western conference as he's getting back to his best with extended minutes.
The inclusion of Mayo is another reason why they will be tough to beat in a best of 7 series but doubt they will even make playoffs this year as they are behind the 8 ball as we speak.

My point exactly.