Judd-less Eagles better off: Worsfold

[happy_eagle]

Imagine if we had have been able to get something for Cousins
We probably could have gotten Pick 2 (Cotchin) and Richmonds second rounder (Rance)

Our Midfield could have been

C: Swift - Kerr - Ebert
R: Naitanui - Masten - Cotchin
INT: Shuey

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Imagine if we had have been able to get something for Cousins
We probably could have gotten Pick 2 (Cotchin) and Richmonds second rounder (Rance)

You really think Richmond would have given up picks 2 and 18 for a 29-year-old drug addict?

Good grief.

 

[happy_eagle]

Its Richmond

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Its Richmond

It's still fanciful.

This whole "it's Richmond – they'll give up the world for shit in return" line is a bit rich when they fleeced us for Morton in the same year.

 

[RhEF JC]

If they'd wanted, Richmond could have drafted Cousins with their first pick in the national draft. They didn't.

 

[15_year_member]

Imagine if we had have been able to get something for Cousins
We probably could have gotten Pick 2 (Cotchin) and Richmonds second rounder (Rance)

Our Midfield could have been

C: Swift - Kerr - Ebert
R: Naitanui - Masten - Cotchin
INT: Shuey

St Kilda offered us pick 9 plus Leigh Montagna for Cousins about a month before the infamous car stop in Northbridge after which he was sacked. The deal was being brokered and driven by Ricky Nixon who was acting as Cousins agent. Cousins and Nixon went to Nisbett and said he wanted to go as St Kilda and Nixon had been in his ear and were telling him that a change of scenery would be best for his addition recovery. Nisbett said no to his request and reminded Cousins that he was under contract at the eagles and a required player. The rest is history. Almost a dockersque blunder by Nisbett.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

St Kilda offered us pick 9 plus Leigh Montagna for Cousins about a month before the infamous car stop in Northbridge after which he was sacked.

Is that on record? Or just scuttlebutt?

 

[15_year_member]

Judd has been wonderful for Carlton. It's easy to say "he's not like he was in 2006" or whatever, but Judd's shouldered a MASSIVE workload for the Blues in his time here and consistently won us games and shown the way for the younger players. He's changed his style and really is an absolute powerhouse inside player these days. He also brought intangibles such as teaching some of our young midfielders how to prepare themselves, and renewed hope and a positive outlook to the Carlton Football Club. For those reasons, Judd was worth getting for Carlton. I don't regret it.

On the flipside, once Judd decided to leave the Eagles, West Coast had to make the best of a less-than-ideal situation. And they most certainly did that. It's obvious for all to see the Kennedy was a huge asset for Carlton to give up, and West Coast to gain. Masten looks to be ready to deliver on the promise that saw him go #3 overall, and West Coast once again have reloaded with youngsters and look very likely to march up the ladder in the coming years.

And I think that's exactly how Woosha would see it too, really. Both clubs are probably better off than they were before that trade was made. My only disappointment as a Carlton fan was we did not better use our leverage at the time. We paid (something resembling) market price, when we should have got Judd on the cheap. Keeping Kennedy was key, and we didn't.

PSD threats or not the eagles would not have traded Judd to you for one top 10 draft pick. If you had gone down that pathway the eagles would have gone down the brinkmanship pathway and called a bluff as you would not have gotten Judd in the PSD anyway. No matter what price he put on his head Richmond would have taken him first.

 

[15_year_member]

Is that on record? Or just scuttlebutt?

On the record. Heard it discussed many times on Perth talkback by Barra and Brad and co and Melbourne talk back aswell in the years since including by Nixon himself. Nixon only conformed that he and Cousins had requested the trade to S Kilda and that an offer had been made that included ther first round pick plus a decent player. He never named the player involved but the name that was continually mentioned by the journos as the player offered up is Montagna.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

On the record. Heard it discussed many times on Perth talkback by Barra and Brad and co and Melbourne talk back aswell in the years since including by Nixon himself.

Talkback is hardly "on record", is it? It's a bit like hearing one of your mates – a particularly crazy, illogical one at that – talk about it at the pub. Surely that is more scuttlebutt than on record.

Nixon is obviously more credible, although you'd have thought that if Nixon was openly discussing such a deal, it would have been widely reported by the papers. They covered every detail of the Cousins saga – surely if St Kilda had been prepared to throw something decent at WC in a trade, it would have been written about quite extensively.

 

[15_year_member]

Talkback is hardly "on record", is it? It's a bit like hearing one of your mates – a particularly crazy, illogical one at that – talk about it at the pub. Surely that is more scuttlebutt than on record.

Nixon is obviously more credible, although you'd have thought that if Nixon was openly discussing such a deal, it would have been widely reported by the papers. They covered every detail of the Cousins saga – surely if St Kilda had been prepared to throw something decent at WC in a trade, it would have been written about quite extensively.

If the people involved in brokering the deal are talking about it on public radio and confirming that they had meetings with Nisbett and Worsfold about it then i consider that to be on record. I am not sure what your defintion of that would be in this situation. Are you expecting them to sign statutary declerations and print them in the paper or something?

It's hardly surprising that the clubs involved don't talk about it publicly as it is unusual for clubs to talk about uncomsumated trades in any circumstances let alone this one as it is emabarasing for the management and and recruitment dept's of both clubs. It's embarassing for St Kilda that they offered the deal and embarassing for Nisbett and Worsfold that they refused it. And Cousins himself has not talked to the media in years about anything.

How often do you get a running commentary in the papers of what picks and players have been offered for whom a month out from trade week? That is the whole reason i listen and wade through the morass of idiots who call talk back as in between the idiots there is a lot of info on there that does not get printed in the papers that mostly turns out to be true IMO which is handy when you are overseas and paperse your only other source of info.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

If the people involved in brokering the deal are talking about it on public radio and confirming that they had meetings with Nisbett and Worsfold about it then i consider that to be on record. I am not sure what your defintion of that would be in this situation. Are you expecting them to sign statutary declerations and print them in the paper or something?

I'm just saying that it would be a pretty big story. Cousins couldn't take a piss without it being reported, so the fact that the Saints wanting to trade for him went totally unreported makes me skeptical about the bonafides of the story.

It's hardly surprising that the clubs involved don't talk about it publicly as it is unusual for clubs to talk about uncomsumated trades in any circumstances let alone this one as it is emabarasing for the management and and recruitment dept's of both clubs. It's embarassing for St Kilda that they offered the deal and embarassing for Nisbett and Worsfold that they refused it. And Cousins himself has not talked to the media in years about anything.

The Hun runs stories on the whiff off an oily rag – remember how Matty Lloyd was on his way to Collingwood last year? If, as you say, Nixon has been happy to confirm that Cousins to St Kilda was on the table, it seems strange that the Hun haven't picked it up at any point since.

How often do you get a running commentary in the papers of what picks and players have been offered for whom a month out from trade week? That is the whole reason i listen and wade through the morass of idiots who call talk back as in between the idiots there is a lot of info on there that does not get printed in the papers that mostly turns out to be true IMO which is handy when you are overseas and paperse your only other source of info.

Cousins is an exceptional case. Let's not pretend that it's just like any other playing switching clubs. If the Saints wanted to trade for Cousins, and Nixon was confirming it left, right and centre, the Hun would be all over it, even 12 months after the fact. Anything about Cousins gets a run.

 

[larrikin]

Did a quick google search and found this

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/afl/afl-may-act-on-cousins/2007/10/25/1192941281486.html

It also emerged that Cousins looked at a move to St Kilda at the end of the 2007 season, a move thwarted on the eve of trade week by coach John Worsfold. The Saints now seem unlikely to consider Cousins. "I wanted to get him (Cousins) out of Perth a long time ago," said Nixon. "I spoke to them (St Kilda) about a possible trade and Ben went to John Worsfold, who knocked back the idea."

Being reported way after the fact so I'm not sure how much weight it actually carries. Certainly doesn't talk about what was offered

 

[bodazoka]

Id do the trade again in hindsight taking into account all the variables. Would not of won another premiership if he stayed because of Cousins leaving and the internal drama that caused and the obvious down turn he has had possibly due to the 2007 injury IMO, and now have Naita, Kennedy, Masten, etc...

Who here would be able to bear seeing Naita play for Fremantle/Port/Essendon??? and Kennedy as the go-to man in the Carlton forward line with Fev gone... shudder at the thought. Probably would of still gotten swift though which is a bonus.

 

[bodazoka]

Did a quick google search and found this

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/afl/afl-may-act-on-cousins/2007/10/25/1192941281486.html



Being reported way after the fact so I'm not sure how much weight it actually carries. Certainly doesn't talk about what was offered

Was that article around the time where Perth and the Eagles were painted by the Vic media as a breeding ground for druggies, prostitutes, violent criminals etc..?

There was a hint of "He must go to Vic" because they were the only ones who could apparently save him.

St Kilda didnt get him for free I seriously doubt that they would of traded anything decent for him even if they wanted him once they did there "due dillegence" would of won them a grand final though.

 

[wouldyoulikesome]

Nicnat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[larrikin]

Was that article around the time where Perth and the Eagles were painted by the Vic media as a breeding ground for druggies, prostitutes, violent criminals etc..?

There was a hint of "He must go to Vic" because they were the only ones who could apparently save him.

St Kilda didnt get him for free I seriously doubt that they would of traded anything decent for him even if they wanted him once they did there "due dillegence" would of won them a grand final though.

The trade would have been the year before "getting him for free"

 

[Faz 2000]

PSD threats or not the eagles would not have traded Judd to you for one top 10 draft pick. If you had gone down that pathway the eagles would have gone down the brinkmanship pathway and called a bluff as you would not have gotten Judd in the PSD anyway. No matter what price he put on his head Richmond would have taken him first.

No, I agree entirely. What I mean is that the general "OMG Carlton have got Judd!!11!!" fever ignored the fact that Carlton paid a hefty, if not market value, price for him. He was NOT a freebie. SO whilst he's improved the Blues with his professionalism and general awesomeness, he's only done it incrementally as the opportunity cost for getting Judd was significant too. The Blues were a total rabble. We're not now, but we're not world-beaters either.

 

[Faz 2000]

....but you seem to be suggesting that he wasn't already a dominant inside midfielder at West Coast; that he only became that after switching clubs.

No, just as you suggested, more that he's not had the support at Carlton to be as damaging an outside midfielder as he could be at West Coast. He's been thrown in the trenches of a rubbish team, and has done all the heavy-lifting for the Blues over the last two years. Eagles fans like to point out "he's not as good as he was with us", but my counter is... I think JUDD has done everything humanly possible, and has been as valuable to Carlton as he was to West Coast, but he came to a team that was struggling in 10th, not a premiership team. There's no bodyguard or "let's block for Judd", there's a bunch of B-graders and kids going "hey Juddy, win us the game would ya?".

Of course he was worth getting.

You picked up a player who, at 24, had been the game's premier midfielder over the course of the previous 3-4 years. Nothing to regret.

I know, he's grouse, isn't he?

That's a bit rich.

If Judd had said "trade me to whoever makes the best offer", that would have allowed us to get market value, and it would almost certainly have exceeded what Carlton gave up.

As it turned out, Judd locked West Coast into trading with Carlton – thankfully he didn't lock us into trading with Collingwood – meaning that us getting genuine market value was never really an option.

When media outlets reported Judd had "chosen" Carlton, the general theme was Carlton had won the lottery. My thoughts are that, sure, even if we "won" the deal, we still had to give up SIGNIFICANT assets to secure the trade. I'm not judging who out-negotiated who here, just recognising that Judd "choosing" Carlton wasn't a freebie, cost-free aquisition to us, and some of us know it! I think Masten, Kennedy and carbon-blob #20 will do a lot of good for the Eagles over a long time. Would Carlton be better placed RIGHT NOW with Masten and Kennedy instead of Judd?

Hmmmmmmmmmm.
Off-field, no way.
On-field for 2010, probably not.
But in search of #17? Maybe.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

No, just as you suggested, more that he's not had the support at Carlton to be as damaging an outside midfielder as he could be at West Coast. He's been thrown in the trenches of a rubbish team, and has done all the heavy-lifting for the Blues over the last two years. Eagles fans like to point out "he's not as good as he was with us", but my counter is... I think JUDD has done everything humanly possible, and has been as valuable to Carlton as he was to West Coast, but he came to a team that was struggling in 10th, not a premiership team. There's no bodyguard or "let's block for Judd", there's a bunch of B-graders and kids going "hey Juddy, win us the game would ya?".

Well, your initial comment was that "he's changed his style and really is an absolute powerhouse inside player these days."

He's changed his style – or has at least been restricted in the kind of footy he can play – in that he no longer does as much damage outside. But that's hardly a positive.

And the these days at the end of your comment suggests that you think Judd wasn't a powerhouse inside player at West Coast – that it's a recent development – sorry, but that's categorically inaccurate.

It would be more accurate to say that, while Judd is still the powerhouse inside midfielder he was at West Coast, he is a less complete player at Carlton because he doesn't have the freedom or support to do the damage outside – maybe there's a problem of waning acceleration? It's hard to say. Notwithstanding, his leadership at Carlton has been invaluable.