Just Relax

[magic19]

I know everyone is a bit pissed off about trade week so far, but why the need to write off Paul Roos? He has a fantastic record and i'm pretty sure he knows what the Swans need more than anyone on this board. (I know some people like to think they know better - but you don't and that's why you posting on Bigfooty and your not the coach of the Sydney Swans)

Paul Roos' Record
2003 - Preliminary Final
2004 - Semi Final
2005 - Premiership
2006 - Grand Final
2007 - Elimination Final

vs
Posters on Bigfooty
F*ck All

 

[little village]

I know everyone is a bit pissed off about trade week so far, but why the need to write off Paul Roos? He has a fantastic record and i'm pretty sure he knows what the Swans need more than anyone on this board. (I know some people like to think they know better - but you don't and that's why you posting on Bigfooty and your not the coach of the Sydney Swans)

Paul Roos' Record
2003 - Preliminary Final
2004 - Semi Final
2005 - Premiership
2006 - Grand Final
2007 - Elimination Final

vs
Posters on Bigfooty
F*ck All

EGGZAKERY

No one wants players to go but thats the way the cookie crumbles these days and there is always a reason s**t happens good or bad.

i bet come september we won't even remember we were talking about this cause we'll be somewhere in the top 4 getting ready for another final series

 

[MF]

I know everyone is a bit pissed off about trade week so far, but why the need to write off Paul Roos? He has a fantastic record and i'm pretty sure he knows what the Swans need more than anyone on this board. (I know some people like to think they know better - but you don't and that's why you posting on Bigfooty and your not the coach of the Sydney Swans)

Paul Roos' Record
2003 - Preliminary Final
2004 - Semi Final
2005 - Premiership
2006 - Grand Final
2007 - Elimination Final

vs
Posters on Bigfooty
F*ck All

I agree mate.

I'm still pretty happy with our trade week.

We have lost:

Pick 44: A nothing pick (these rarely develop into quality players)
Schneider: A decent kid who has pace but misses far too many goals
Dempster: Would only ever have been an average player at absolute best (didn't improve at all this season)

Gained:

Upgraded pick 28 to 26
Mattner: Will provide that extra pace we need and will help free up Malceski to play other roles
Playfair: Not as bad as most people make him out to be. Could develop into a very handy KPP (something we also need).

 

[CharlieG]

He has a great record coaching a team that he mostly inherited into high finishes. A large portion of the list - Hall, Mathews, O'Keefe, Fosdike, Doyle, Kennelly, O'Loughlin, Ablett, Barry, J.Bolton, Crouch, Roberts-Thomson, Kirk, Buchanan and Goodes - were all at the club when Roos took over.

He does not have a good record with trading and drafting, and today he is going to reach a new low. How many players has Roos recruited that are now regulars in the side? Davis and C.Bolton fell into our lap. Jolly was a good get, and Everitt has been very good. Richards has been ok, but we did pay a high price for him.

As for drafting, only five national draft selections are still on the list and have actually played a game - Malceski, McVeigh, Schmidt, Moore and Laidlaw. We've done reasonably well out of NSW rookies - Barlow is exciting, Jack is worth persevering with and Bevan has been servicable, but NSW rookies tend to pick themselves. I still think Grundy will make it, and he was great value with a low pick in the rookie draft, but he was widely regarded as the most unlucky player in the 2004 draft, so if anything we were fortunate to get him so cheaply.

This current football department has gotten the best out of players that it inherited, but it has not improved the list. We still have much the same core we did five years ago - they're just all five years older.

 

[little village]

He has a great record coaching a team that he mostly inherited into high finishes. A large portion of the list - Hall, Mathews, O'Keefe, Fosdike, Doyle, Kennelly, O'Loughlin, Ablett, Barry, J.Bolton, Crouch, Roberts-Thomson, Kirk, Buchanan and Goodes - were all at the club when Roos took over.

He does not have a good record with trading and drafting, and today he is going to reach a new low. How many players has Roos recruited that are now regulars in the side? Davis and C.Bolton fell into our lap. Jolly was a good get, and Everitt has been very good. Richards has been ok, but we did pay a high price for him.

As for drafting, only five national draft selections are still on the list and have actually played a game - Malceski, McVeigh, Schmidt, Moore and Laidlaw. We've done reasonably well out of NSW rookies - Barlow is exciting, Jack is worth persevering with and Bevan has been servicable, but NSW rookies tend to pick themselves.

This current football department has gotten the best out of players that it inherited, but it has not improved the list. We still have much the same core we did five years ago - they're just all five years older.

you wrapped him up all them way then egged him

if so then why didn't we win a premiership with ade come on dude i think it's disgraceful that your even questioning before the facts are out.

believe me i don't wanna lose schneiderman he's awesome and it was great to have a father son come play for us but ......... from what i read he asked to be traded.

and Roosy looked after him and so he should he's a premiership player.

are you saying Dempsters in our best 22

 

[xxscubaxx]

He has a great record coaching a team that he mostly inherited into high finishes. A large portion of the list - Hall, Mathews, O'Keefe, Fosdike, Doyle, Kennelly, O'Loughlin, Ablett, Barry, J.Bolton, Crouch, Roberts-Thomson, Kirk, Buchanan and Goodes - were all at the club when Roos took over.

He does not have a good record with trading and drafting, and today he is going to reach a new low. How many players has Roos recruited that are now regulars in the side? Davis and C.Bolton fell into our lap. Jolly was a good get, and Everitt has been very good. Richards has been ok, but we did pay a high price for him.

As for drafting, only five national draft selections are still on the list and have actually played a game - Malceski, McVeigh, Schmidt, Moore and Laidlaw. We've done reasonably well out of NSW rookies - Barlow is exciting, Jack is worth persevering with and Bevan has been servicable, but NSW rookies tend to pick themselves. I still think Grundy will make it, and he was great value with a low pick in the rookie draft, but he was widely regarded as the most unlucky player in the 2004 draft, so if anything we were fortunate to get him so cheaply.

This current football department has gotten the best out of players that it inherited, but it has not improved the list. We still have much the same core we did five years ago - they're just all five years older.

EXACTLY what he said.

 

[MF]

On Paper our team has a much better structure with Mattner and Playfair than it does with Dempster and Schneider.

Roos knows what he is doing.

 

[CharlieG]

you wrapped him up all them way then egged him

if so then why didn't we win a premiership with ade come on dude i think it's disgraceful that your even questioning before the facts are out.

Roos was quoted in the Daily Terror that the deal has been done in principle. I'm not being precipitous.

I don't know if you misunderstood the tone of my post, but I do not regard one draftee, on average, per year as a success. Especially when only two of them are regular senior players. That's before you bring the question of whether McVeigh has delivered a top five draft pick should into the equation.

believe me i don't wanna lose schneiderman he's awesome and it was great to have a father son come play for us but ......... from what i read he asked to be traded.

and Roosy looked after him and so he should he's a premiership player.

How sweet. What really set me off this morning was reading Ross Lyon quoted as saying Roos "did me a favour".

I don't care if the two of them are life-long friends. Trading is business and I expect Roos to deal with *our* best interests in mind. Lyon is just another opposition coach. We'll never know what went on with this deal, but if Lyon's comment could be taken at face value Roos would deserve to be sacked. Luckily, I'm sure there's more to it but it doesn't change the fact that it's a ****ing appalling deal.

are you saying Dempsters in our best 22

No, but we gave him away for free. Think about that for a moment. We were set to get 26 for Schneider anyway - never mind that Schneider is worth more to us than that pick - but now we throw in Dempster, just to be nice?

No wonder we've got no ****ing depth in this list.

 

[natlovestheswans]

are you saying Dempsters in our best 22

That doesn't mean we give him away for free. Mattner wasn't in the Crows best 22 but we still gave pick 28 for him. I'm not saying that Dempster was worth that much, but something would have been nice.

 

[Syd]

Bearing in mind we will most likely lose Tadgh at the end of his current contract, we've added some more pace\depth on the wing (Mattner).

Bearing in mind that O'Loughlin is "getting on", we've added a potentially good forward option according to Cats fans (Playfair).

Bearing in mind we need some youth we've kept our 1st round pick this year.

Bearing in mind we need to give some of our current youth stocks more game time (Schmidt, Barlow, etc) we've offloaded Schneider and Dempster fairly cheaply.

Does that sound a reasonable overview to most fans?

 

[EatBig Australia]

On Paper our team has a much better structure with Mattner and Playfair than it does with Dempster and Schneider.

Roos knows what he is doing.

That may be true about Mattner and Playfair being better for us but surely we could have Dempster as well and have traded only Schneider for pick 26???

 

[FM0226]

I'm with Charlie on this one. Roos is a good coach , but he hasn't shown a great deal in the trading and drafting market. Since he took over, only Malceski had been a clear 'winner' and he was a high risk/high return prospect because he was struggling with injuries, even as a youngster.

Jolly's trade is probable/borderline advantage to us, Chambers is an outright loss, Ted Richards is again borderline (but a borderline loss in my opinion), Everitt is fair value, Spriggs is another total loss. We have picked midfielders in every draft and only McVeigh had held his spot (and are criticised every second week), Schmit looked good but for some reason is held back by the likes of a half-fit Crouch.

If Dempster is really of no trade, why can't we keep him for depth? I doubt he's on a lot of money and we are not exactly loaded with youngsters 190cm+. I can live with Schneider traded for 26, but adding in Dempster is idiotic in my view.

And so much talk in us want to get younger and yet we traded away two 23 year olds for a 25 and 24 year old - it certainly doesn't make a lot of sense or at the very least, seems to contradict what he had said.

 

[MF]

That may be true about Mattner and Playfair being better for us but surely we could have Dempster as well and have traded only Schneider for pick 26???

Quite possibly but I reckon Dempster being thrown in could have been due to salary cap pressure and either way I would rather see Laidlaw or Brennan given a chance in his role next season.

 

[eastlakes rule]

I don't know if you misunderstood the tone of my post, but I do not regard one draftee, on average, per year as a success. Especially when only two of them are regular senior players. That's before you bring the question of whether McVeigh has delivered a top five draft pick should into the equation.

McVeigh was a Sydney Junior who won the Alan McClean Medal as an U16 and was Selected in the Ais/Afl academy and in return toured Ireland. He was a Standout at the Draft camp with a 15. 6 Beep test ( speed endurnace a must for modern day football) and a 10.02 in the 3km time trail. he was an outstanding junior and at the time was considered a top 10 pick, but being a Sydney local, the relocation factor was significant.
So fort sydney not to select him as a top 5 selction would hve bn stupid

 

[FM0226]

Bearing in mind we will most likely lose Tadgh at the end of his current contract, we've added some more pace\depth on the wing (Mattner).

Bearing in mind that O'Loughlin is "getting on", we've added a potentially good forward option according to Cats fans (Playfair).

Bearing in mind we need some youth we've kept our 1st round pick this year.

Bearing in mind we need to give some of our current youth stocks more game time (Schmidt, Barlow, etc) we've offloaded Schneider and Dempster fairly cheaply.

Does that sound a reasonable overview to most fans?

I have no problems with Mattner, that was a decent-good trade.
Most cats fans I heard from say that Playfair is a good CHB/FB prospect and had his career almost ruined when they try to develop him as a CHF where he clearly struggled.

Yes, we should give our youth more time, but we should be cutting into players that are not going to be with us in a few years. Crouch should be encouraged to retire. Matthews to spend more time in the reserves than in the senior team. Fosdike should have traded for a third round pick to send for Mayfair. Bolton to perhaps have around 6 games off to get his body right rather than playing hurt - Ditto Ablett and Buchanan.

That's what he should have done, but instead he let go of two 23 year olds for older replacements. What this is suggesting to me is that he has grown too close to the ageing, underperforming players and is willing to make sacrifices to the younger players in order to preserve these player's status in the team.

 

[CharlieG]

McVeigh was a Sydney Junior who won the Alan McClean Medal as an U16 and was Selected in the Ais/Afl academy and in return toured Ireland. He was a Standout at the Draft camp with a 15. 6 Beep test ( speed endurnace a must for modern day football) and a 10.02 in the 3km time trail. he was an outstanding junior and at the time was considered a top 10 pick, but being a Sydney local, the relocation factor was significant.
So fort sydney not to select him as a top 5 selction would hve bn stupid

I know the rationale, and I'm speaking with the benefit of hindsight. He has been disappointing thus far - I still hold out hope that he will improve, but he has not delivered what we expect of a top five draft pick.

 

[Johnny Roberts]

I think what some are missing here is that trading is not about "one upmanship" it is getting the best value for your clubs needs.

Saying that we should have got more for Dempster is ludicrous, the market determines a player's value, not potential or age. If he was worth more, we would have got more, simple as that.

The only way to get early draft picks is to trade topliners or finish in the bottom 4 or 6 on the ladder. We tried to offer up Jude for a first rounder and no one wanted him (as yet anyway). So what are some suggesting?? We go down the St kilda, Carlton or Richmond model and tank for 3 years. No thanks - there are no guarantees as we have seen with St Kilda's numerous number 1 picks and where are they now??

To say Roos hasn't drafted/ traded well is only telling half the truth as the AFL system is designed to punish the teams that have consistent success and to assist the battlers. With that in mind we have been forced to be "creative" with the Pre Season draft, rookie list and trading for players that aren't getting the opportunities elsewhere.

As I stated in another thread, Roos has shown that he gives fair value for value in return and has now built a reputation where other clubs want to trade with the swans. I would much rather than that, than the pies or bombers that overrate their players and have missed out on numerous big names due to their own "pig headedness".

We lost a flashy HFF and a fringe HBF, it is hardly the end of the world.

Go Bloods

 

[CharlieG]

I think what some are missing here is that trading is not about "one upmanship" it is getting the best value for your clubs needs.

Never suggested anything different.

Saying that we should have got more for Dempster is ludicrous, the market determines a player's value, not potential or age. If he was worth more, we would have got more, simple as that.

The problems with that statement are a) there is nothing to suggest that we even *tried* to establish a market value for him in the first place and b) we have added him to a deal where it was patently unnecessary to do so. Yesterday the deal was set to be Schneider for pick 26 and Leigh Fisher. Now it's Schneider and Dempster for pick 26. Something is wrong here.

The only way to get early draft picks is to trade topliners or finish in the bottom 4 or 6 on the ladder. We tried to offer up Jude for a first rounder and no one wanted him (as yet anyway). So what are some suggesting?? We go down the St kilda, Carlton or Richmond model and tank for 3 years. No thanks - there are no guarantees as we have seen with St Kilda's numerous number 1 picks and where are they now??

Not at all. How about we start by doing what we set out to do. At the start of the week Roos was saying we needed to rejuvenate an ageing list. Now we have a 25 year old and a 24 year old coming in, and two 23 year olds going out.

To say Roos hasn't drafted/ traded well is only telling half the truth as the AFL system is designed to punish the teams that have consistent success and to assist the battlers. With that in mind we have been forced to be "creative" with the Pre Season draft, rookie list and trading for players that aren't getting the opportunities elsewhere.

Cop-out. We might not have had access to the absolute cream of the crop, but we have had opportunities. We picked an undersized mid with pick 16 in 2003 (Willoughby) and delisted him three years later without giving him a game. In 2004 we picked up Spriggs and re-drafted Heath James. I was always a fan of Heath, everybody knows that, but why did we re-draft him? He never got a look-in during 2005.

We have, at best, a slap-dash attitude to recruiting.

As I stated in another thread, Roos has shown that he gives fair value for value in return and has now built a reputation where other clubs want to trade with the swans.

Well, considering how easy it is to rip him off, I'm not surprised.

 

[MF]

Cop-out. We might not have had access to the absolute cream of the crop, but we have had opportunities. We picked an undersized mid with pick 16 in 2003 (Willoughby) and delisted him three years later without giving him a game. In 2004 we picked up Spriggs and re-drafted Heath James. I was always a fan of Heath, everybody knows that, but why did we re-draft him? He never got a look-in during 2005.

We have, at best, a slap-dash attitude to recruiting.

The fact of the matter is that Sydney pay a lot of money for blokes to evaluate our list and identify weaknesses and areas for improvement. It isn't always as simple as "why would we let player A go for player B or pick C". There is a gameplan, team structure and different roles that need to be considered and I'm sure the Swans football department spend a lot more time looking at these things than any of us do.

As for your question about Heath James - I wouldn't like to speculate because I actually don't know which other players were available at the time that we could have drafted in his place. Do you have a list with all the players strenghts and weaknesses and what they could have offered in place of James' potential? I bet the swans football department do.

David Spriggs - I don't remember people calling Roos mad at the time we traded for him but it's pretty easy to critisize the deal in hindsight.

I can see exactly why they have made these trades and for anyone to suggest that Roos doesn't know what he is doing or is the only person making these decisions is fairly ignorant.

 

[Johnny Roberts]

Charlie- I wasn't specifically targeting you- moreso the hysteria that has been shown on BF from swans supporters since the trade was done.

Having said that - you raise some good points- but I will endeavour to clarify.

You assume that we didn't try to get value for dempster, but I would doubt that Roos would just put the deal on the table- who knows what tooing and froing went on. eg. we offered a 4th round pick for N. Davis to start with and then ended up giving a 2nd round pick. Maybe Schneider is worth a 3rd round pick and Dempster was added into the equation??

Youth doesn't gaurantee success. See St Kilda, see Hawthorn of 2001 when Rawlings, Hay and Croad were All Australians. I would argue that we lost 2 mid 20's players that have had plenty of opportunities at our club for 2 mid 20's players that haven't had opportunities at their respective clubs. Pick 44 is just a no pick anyway.

I agree we have had some misses along the way, but when you are consistently getting late picks in the draft it is a lottery. It is not like the old days where you could pick up a Goodes in the 50's or a Hird in the 70's- the recruiting these days is pretty scientific and there aren't too many smokey's that sneak through. Unless you are in Adelaide or Perth of course where you can hide them up the bush, we don't have that luxury.

Your final point is all about one upmanship- but I still think that if you put Mattner and Playfair vs Schneider and Dempster (plus a non pick at 44) - the 2 we got will have more game time than the 2 we lost - or that we broke even at worst.

Anyway - the only way we will know is when season 08 rolls around- bring it on.!!

 

[liz]

It's a little sad to see Dempster go but I don't think we should get upset about his trade value. Roos is effectively saying that he's too good to be playing in the Canberra competition and that this is where he'd have probably spent most of his 2008. It's not only the recruitment of Mattner that has hurt Dempster, but also the late season emergence of Barlow as another tall running prospect. And while Barlow still has a long way to go, he attacked his four games with a gusto that Dempster rarely showed in his 30 odd games.

I hope Dempster has that break out moment that turns him into a really good footballer. I believe he has the raw ability. But after 5 or 6 seasons on the list, the chances that he does are somewhat less than the chance he never does.

 

[s2 Swans Dragons]

ooushh..17 trades

 

[HeartnSoul14]

Whilst I agree with the majority of the posters, in that trade week was a bit of a let down after the great Mattner move.

I think it really showed Roosys people skills and thats what really makes him a great coach. pick 26 is light on for Scneids and the dumpster but Sean wanted to go and Schneids was probably the only one that could get us a second round pick. He was the only one with any currency. Trust me I would have much rather Macca, but apparently noone rates him

While I am upset to see the boys go, I wish them all the luck at the saints - but I think roosy did it for the right reasons - that I can live with.

With all the talk about possible delistings - I was wondering how the young irish rookie fits into the picture (Brendan Murphy???)
Is he an international rookie and therefore not on our rookie list - how does it work? - gee I hope he comes on quick - by all reposrts very good in ireland and is only 18 or something

 

[CharlieG]

With all the talk about possible delistings - I was wondering how the young irish rookie fits into the picture (Brendan Murphy???)
Is he an international rookie and therefore not on our rookie list - how does it work? - gee I hope he comes on quick - by all reposrts very good in ireland and is only 18 or something

He counts as a rookie, yes. From what I recall, we use our final pick in the rookie draft in order to get him.

 

[scottwade]

With all the talk about possible delistings - I was wondering how the young irish rookie fits into the picture (Brendan Murphy???)
Is he an international rookie and therefore not on our rookie list - how does it work? - gee I hope he comes on quick - by all reposrts very good in ireland and is only 18 or something

Murphy is preselected as an international rookie by the Swans and is included on our rookie list.

As I mentioned previously in another thread, whilst Tadhg has been a great success, another Irish rookie called Declan O'Mahony came out here for 2003 and was home within a matter of weeks, so hopefully Murphy fulfills our hopes, but lets not get carried away just yet.

EDIT: Sorry Charlie this is the second post in which I just seem to be repeating what you've just said.
Obviously your typing is significantly quicker than mine.