Conspiracy Theory Kennedy Assassination - 50 years on

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Kellythatsit said:
There are a raft of reasons ...

Is the rustling in the bushes the wind or is it a tiger?

The need for balance. People can't accept that a man of Kennedy's stature, the most powerful man in the Western world, could be gunned down, surrounded by his own security, by the seemingly pathetic, "wretched waif" in Lee Oswald. People need a reason for it - beyond the finality and simplicity of a lone nut assassin. That to me is at the core of it. Everything grows from there if you can make it fit.

The same need for balance is at the core of our other favourite subject too Glacier (and I'll include you too ET).

But let's not get into that here - it already has it's own uber-thread : )
Click to expand...

I can never get over just how lame this oft-regurgitated argument is. The simple rejoinder is "yeahnah actually...most people can cope quite happily with this idea. Pretty much anyone can be gunned down by pretty much anyone else. They just can." People today don't "need a reason" for the death of JFK - I mean it's ancient history...really no one today has a great emotional connection to the guy. But some of us can tell when we're being lied to...whereas others still can't wait to defend those lies if it fits their pre-fab worldview.
 
lenny&carl said:
I can never get over just how lame this oft-regurgitated argument is. The simple rejoinder is "yeahnah actually...most people can cope quite happily with this idea. Pretty much anyone can be gunned down by pretty much anyone else. They just can." People today don't "need a reason" for the death of JFK - I mean it's ancient history...really no one today has a great emotional connection to the guy. But some of us can tell when we're being lied to...whereas others still can't wait to defend those lies if it fits their pre-fab worldview.
Click to expand...
I see ... unfortunately it seems to me that you don't actually know you are being lied to you just assume it because, well, you know ... Governments always lie and the official story is always just a white wash.

This is where evidence, logic, reason and the ability to think critically comes in handy. You should try it some time.

You might find it handy when debating in threads such as these.


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Kellythatsit said:
I see ... unfortunately it seems to me that you don't actually know you are being lied to you just assume it because, well, you know ... Governments always lie and the official story is always just a white wash.

This is where evidence, logic, reason and the ability to think critically comes in handy. You should try it some time.

You might find it handy when debating in threads such as these.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

ThanK you for that honest substantial argument. How could any reasonable fellow disagree? You prosecute yourself lightweight.
 
Kellythatsit said:
I see ... unfortunately it seems to me that you don't actually know you are being lied to you just assume it because, well, you know ... Governments always lie and the official story is always just a white wash.

This is where evidence, logic, reason and the ability to think critically comes in handy. You should try it some time.

You might find it handy when debating in threads such as these.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

well...can you bacK up this psychobabble? A majority of people in 2013 thinK jfK was done in by a government conspiracy. You thinK we thinK this why??? Please expand! Your confidence might suggest Knowledge...show show?
 
well...can you bacK up this psychobabble?

It is concerning that you would term an appeal to critical thinking as "psychobabble".

A majority of people in 2013 thinK jfK was done in by a government conspiracy. You thinK we thinK this why???

... basically because you don't use common sense, reason nor logic to reach conclusions. Instead you START with the conclusion that the government is lying and work back from there.

Besides which, an appeal to a majority is a poor argument to back up any claim that JFK was killed by conspiracy. By that logic should we assume (despite evidence) that Titanic is the greatest movie ever made? Should we assume (despite evidence) that there is indeed a god and that Christianity is the one true religion? Should we assume that China and India are the two greatest civilisations we have ever known?

Please expand! Your confidence might suggest Knowledge...show show?
Sweet rivers of Babylon!

You see thinking critically allows one to air confidence in their assertions because it is based on reason. I'm not sure how you would like me to "expand"? Maybe you could read my previous posts in this thread, if not let me know where you would like me to provide further information.


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I was referring to the "argument" that people-just-can't-imagine-important-people-being-killed by-nobodies as psychobabble. It's merely patronizing and condescending ...and not reasonable.
 

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lenny&carl said:
A majority of people in 2013 thinK jfK was done in by a government conspiracy.
Click to expand...

See this sort of rubbish is why it becomes so hard to have a proper look at the JFK case objectively.

The actual proper poll's and studies show only that the majority of people don't believe the official story of JFK's assassination. (like myself for example)

You have used this as free licence to suggest that the majority of people believe that the government conspired to and did assassinate JFK.

That's called leaping to conclusions and highlights your predispostion to JFK being killed by the United states government and your inability to objectively view facts as a result.
 
Glacier said:
Ok so lets look at the kennedy assasination in a little bit more detail, and hopefully garner a great discussion henceforth

Everyone, of course, accepts that JFK was the victim of bullets fired by someone,its just that nobody completely agrees who fired them and why.For all the years of speculation,almost nothing has ever been universally settled about what happened, and in the process of time, alot of things become muddled and confused.
So lets look at some facts and delve into the questions those facts ask of us.
I dont think there is little doubt that Lee Harvey Oswald, ex marine and one time defector to the Soviet Union was responsible in some way, whether firing one or more of the shots that day or being involved in some sort of plan to execute the President.
What is interesting is some facts that seem to have been lost in the passing of time
Many witnesses say several shots were heard ( six possible impulses are said to have been recorded on a controversial police 'dictabelt' recording ) but at least two other bullets than the killshot are generally agreed to have been fired on the day, but by whom ?
The Warren Commission dismissed any wider conspiracy concluding that Oswald fired three shots, one of which missed, one sliced through Kennedy and Connally and one inflicted the fatal wound to the President's brain.
Contrary to these findings however are the not insubstantial much discussed evidence that shots came from the now legendary grassy knoll. It is interesting to note that when Science and Justice journal, a publication of the British Forensic Science Society, analysed audio recordings of the assasination, they recorded a 96 % certainty that shots had been fired from there, however critics can easily point out that these may have been acoustics.
Another fact that I find interesting centres around the gun itself, the first police officers on the scene unambiguously identified the weapon found as a 7.65 Mauser, but by the time the Warren Commission reported, this had become a 6.5 Italian Mannlicher Carcano, the rifle Oswald had onwned prior to the assasination.
Then there is the magic bullet theory, which i wont go into here,as it would take much too long...
Needless to say, there are indeed many reports of suspicious looking figures hovering in unusual places at the time of the shooting, although certainly some of this could be put down to some sort of retrospective paranoia, it is widley known that Frank Sturgis ( of Watergate fame) claimed that one of the purposes for the Watergate break in was to steal incriminating photos of US agents staioned at dealey plaza that day, whilst reports of three mysterious "tramps", one of which was later said to be one E Howard Hunt, CIA agent and later to serve 33 months in prison over the Watergate scandal, are very well known
Again, interestingly,in 2007 Hunt's son claimed that his father told him he had been part of the JFK assasination whilst on his deathbed.
Also of more interest are statements made by Jack Ruby in a televised interview in 1965

" Everything pertaining to whats happening has never come to the surface.the world will never know the true facts of what occured,my true motives.the people who had so much to gain,and had such an ulterior motive for putting me in the position I'm in, will never let the true facts come above board to the world."
Reporter- " are tghese people in very high positions Jack?"
"yes
I am doomed, I dont want to die, but I am not insane.I was framed to kill Oswald"

Ruby was dead less than 12 months later, officially cancer.
As with other events where answers to awkward questions might be readily available from named witnesses, it should be recorded that an above average number of other key witnesses in connection with the killing of Kennedy appear to have met their demise, in this case 21 people, any researcher can verify this by just searching a little on our friend, the internet
Anyway with the passage of time, all sorts of theories and motives have evolved and re evolved and have confused the issues somewhat, which makes it difficult
again, this could be a fantastic discussion if it doesnt become a big shit fight, no reason it should
Click to expand...

Yeah from what I've seen/read I'm inclined to think Hunt was one of the major players as a CIA agent working with some of the anti-Castro groups. George Bush involved in some way as well, couldn't remember where he was the day Kennedy was killed, contacted an FBI office in Texas the day of (or before) the assassination to report threats made against the President by some uni student, and denied he was in the CIA at the time despite declassified J Edgar Hoover memos from the days following the assassination talking about a meeting with a George Bush of the CIA - when queried on this his response was "it must have been another George Bush".

From my perspective CIA in this up to their necks, remember this was the time when they were in their element just after the Eisenhower years and not only did JFK fail to back them on Cuba but also wanted to basically disband them. Recently I've heard he wanted to disband the Federal Reserve as well.

The thing that doesn't make sense is if it was Oswald acting alone, why the need to keep thousands of documents still classified? What threat to "national security" is there if it was just a lone nut? What else is hidden in those documents? It doesn't make sense and from what I can gather it seems the USA was in a constant battle since inception to fall back under the hand of the bankers that they rid themselves of when they acted out their revolution. Lincoln was murdered because of it (partly) and so was Kennedy (partly) and since the Kennedy assassination it has been one long goose-step to a police state and policing the world.
 
Kellythatsit said:
There are a raft of reasons ...

Is the rustling in the bushes the wind or is it a tiger?

The need for balance. People can't accept that a man of Kennedy's stature, the most powerful man in the Western world, could be gunned down, surrounded by his own security, by the seemingly pathetic, "wretched waif" in Lee Oswald. People need a reason for it - beyond the finality and simplicity of a lone nut assassin. That to me is at the core of it. Everything grows from there if you can make it fit.

The same need for balance is at the core of our other favourite subject too Glacier (and I'll include you too ET).

But let's not get into that here - it already has it's own uber-thread : )


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Nah the main thing for me is the Zapruder film - just look at it without any preconceived ideas and tell me how you could possibly think he was shot from behind? It doesn't make sense.
 
Demonic Ascent said:
Nah the main thing for me is the Zapruder film - just look at it without any preconceived ideas and tell me how you could possibly think he was shot from behind? It doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...
I agree.
 
Demonic Ascent said:
Nah the main thing for me is the Zapruder film - just look at it without any preconceived ideas and tell me how you could possibly think he was shot from behind? It doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...

It actually does, but you need to look at it frame by frame. In real time, it absolutely does look like it came from the front, which is what the public thought they it was first aired in the mid-1970s. That led to the House Select Committee on Assassinations being convened to re-investigate the case. This committee incidentally agreed with the Warren Commission on Oswald firing the shots 1 (that missed), 2 and 3 that hit Kennedy / Connolly and Kennedy. So there is no disagreement there.*

When you look at it frame by frame, it's pretty clear the spray of blood and brains goes forward, not back. Kennedy was wearing a back brace (plus back muscles are stronger than abdominal ones), so when he convulsed his body (and head) went backwards.

Then of course is the matter of actual physical evidence. If the shot did come from the front (i.e. the grassy knoll), then there would have been an exit would on the left hand side of Kennedy's skull. There wasn't. It was completely intact. There would have been spent cartridges found on the grassy knoll. There weren't. There should have been a gun found or gunmen seen on the grassy knoll. There wasn't.

Compare that to what was found in the Texas Book Depository. They found 3 spent cartridges, all from Oswald's Carcano rifle. His fingerprints were all over it. They found his fingerprints all over boxes in the "sniper's nest", some of which had to be moved 40 feet to that position. Employees on the fifth floor of the building heard the shots, plus the bolt being moved after each shot, and shells hitting the floor above them. The bullet fragments recovered from the car, Kennedy's brain and Connolly's stretcher all match - to the exclusion of all other guns - to that Carcano.

Stories are cool, but ultimately you need evidence. T.H.Huxley summed it up wonderfully - "A beautiful hypothesis slayed by an ugly fact".

* - it's a nice sober counter argument to those who think the assassination was some remarkable feat of marksmanship. Oswald took until the third shot to hit the target.
 
^^^^
Why would there be an exit wound on the left hand side of Kennedy's skull ?
Do you mean front or back ?
If you mean back, there was, enough to put a fist in apparently
Also, the Zapruder film doesn't show blood spraying to the front at all
 
Glacier said:
^^^^
Why would there be an exit wound on the left hand side of Kennedy's skull ?
Do you mean front or back ?
If you mean back, there was, enough to put a fist in apparently
Also, the Zapruder film doesn't show blood spraying to the front at all
Click to expand...

Because if he was shot from the grassy knoll the entrance wound would be at the front right. I meant the back left if you're looking at his face front on.

There was no hole on the left hand side. Entrance wound at the back of the skull on the right, exit wound at the front of the skull on the right as well. Makes sense as the line from the Book Depository to the car at that point was fairly straight.

As for the last sentence, watch the film very slowly - frame by frame. Blood sprays in one direction, and it isn't to the rear.

As others have noted, the shot from the grassy knoll is the real magic bullet - it managed to miss Kennedy, Mrs.Kennedy, Connolly, his wife, the driver, the car, the secret service guys, and all the spectators. That's a fair achievement from much closer than Oswald was.
 
Sydney Bloods said:
See this sort of rubbish is why it becomes so hard to have a proper look at the JFK case objectively.

The actual proper poll's and studies show only that the majority of people don't believe the official story of JFK's assassination. (like myself for example)

You have used this as free licence to suggest that the majority of people believe that the government conspired to and did assassinate JFK.

That's called leaping to conclusions and highlights your predispostion to JFK being killed by the United states government and your inability to objectively view facts as a result.
Click to expand...

I'd guarantee you most people haven't read the Warren report. Most wouldn't know Oswald was a trained and capable marksman. Most wouldn't know Oswald tried to assassinate Edwin Walker in April 1963. It also shows most people don't examine facts and evidence, nor think objectively.

The Dallas police authorities solved the case in 2 hours flat. That's a fair achievement. If it was a local politican, it would have been closed not long after, without any fuss. As it was a president, it had to be bigger. As soon as the assassin himself gets assassinated, of course conspiracy nuts are off on their way. For sure, there are plenty of things that make you raise your eyes at first glance. The ballistics involved seemingly don't make sense, until you examine it further. There is no question the Warren Commission got things wrong - they had the sequence of shots wrong for one thing, and took far too much notice of what Connolly thought had happened. And the details surrounding the autopsy, plus the removal of the body from Dallas to Bethesda, was almost farcical. Regrettably, people misconstrue panic and poor decision making as proof of a conspiracy. It's not. It's just poor judgement under pressure and exceptional conditions.

Unfortunately we're far too fond of good stories, and not fond enough of thinking calmly and rationally. While our brains function that way (and they do), there will always be conspiracy theories, no matter how weak or fanciful.
 
Partridge said:
Because if he was shot from the grassy knoll the entrance wound would be at the front right. I meant the back left if you're looking at his face front on.

There was no hole on the left hand side. Entrance wound at the back of the skull on the right, exit wound at the front of the skull on the right as well. Makes sense as the line from the Book Depository to the car at that point was fairly straight.

As for the last sentence, watch the film very slowly - frame by frame. Blood sprays in one direction, and it isn't to the rear.

As others have noted, the shot from the grassy knoll is the real magic bullet - it managed to miss Kennedy, Mrs.Kennedy, Connolly, his wife, the driver, the car, the secret service guys, and all the spectators. That's a fair achievement from much closer than Oswald was.
Click to expand...

No offence mate but we must be watching a different film
 
And what's more the autopsy of Kennedy showed bullet particles on the right front of his skull, such particles are consistent with an entry wound only
 

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