Kennett's comments on poker machine reforms

[Linda Crescent]

I think the HFC makes $4.5 million a year (approx 20% of our revenue) from poker machines.

This could be reduced by approx 12% when pre-commitment is introduced says Andrew Wilke ($540,000). I can live with this.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Whilst I'm a fan of Kennett, I totally disagree with him here, and have a new respect for the Geelong Football Club, as they are the only club to publicly support the reforms. The way gambling has infected the AFL makes me want to vomit.

Geelong does a lot right as a club - I've got huge respect for them overall, onfield performances aside.

Hawkzzz - you're on the money (scuse the pun) that cash should be put into other business ventures. Pokies is a short cut. It's quick cash, easy cash and ugly cash. It's ugly because it relies on people pouring more and more money into the things - money that has a negative long run return.

Shit - imagine clubs putting together business ventures that actually helped communities? Or provided a service that actually makes peoples lives better, whilst being profitable? Of course it's easier to get a pokies license for a few hundred grand and then watch the cash roll in, but I'd be happy for the club to pour a few million into an investment with a long term cash flow.

Sure - gambling isn't rational. And all you perfectly rational people out there may struggle to come to terms with the idea that irrational behaviour (like going to a sports arena and yelling abuse at people you've never met before, for example) is just as real and hard to change as rational behaviour.

 

[PottSie2]

Is there any research that shows that these "problem" gamblers will use the money they supposedly "saving" more wisely, or will it just be redirected into other gambling avenues ?

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Is there any research that shows that these "problem" gamblers will use the money they supposedly "saving" more wisely, or will it just be redirected into other gambling avenues ?

Pokies are a unique form of gambling due to all the high stimulus music/lights etc. As well as the complete lack of noise for a negative outcome. THink of how kids get into a trance when they play computer games and watch TV. This is the adult form - it's mindless and compulsive. You bet and you immediately get your result. This immediacy is a big part of the addictiveness (like nicotine, quick acting, you immediately get the effect - compared to say paracetamol which takes effect over 30minutes, and it's clear which one is more addictive). In gambling terms - think of your lottery tickets. You have to buy the ticket then wait at least a few hours for the result.

Accessibility is a big issue too. Take horse racing as an example - you kinda have to actively pursue it as a hobby. If you just bet on random horses your chances are damn slim. This is pretty discouraging. (as opposed to the pokies which, on my last check, had a return of 87c for every dollar put in. This means you are much likely to see a win of some description on a random play)

The thing that scares the shit out of me with this is the centrebet/sportsbet gaming apps on the iPhone. This will be such a big money spinner. I can't tell you how many tiems I've been sitting around with my mates watching footy saying "I betcha that.....". Having to go to a TAB or over to a comp to place bets is a barrier that means none of us ever put a bet on. That also means if anyone in the group is susceptible to compulsive gaming in this way - they won't know it because they don't have easy access to it, until now.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Pokies are a unique form of gambling due to all the high stimulus music/lights etc. As well as the complete lack of noise for a negative outcome. THink of how kids get into a trance when they play computer games and watch TV. This is the adult form - it's mindless and compulsive. You bet and you immediately get your result. This immediacy is a big part of the addictiveness (like nicotine, quick acting, you immediately get the effect - compared to say paracetamol which takes effect over 30minutes, and it's clear which one is more addictive). In gambling terms - think of your lottery tickets. You have to buy the ticket then wait at least a few hours for the result.

Accessibility is a big issue too. Take horse racing as an example - you kinda have to actively pursue it as a hobby. If you just bet on random horses your chances are damn slim. This is pretty discouraging. (as opposed to the pokies which, on my last check, had a return of 87c for every dollar put in. This means you are much likely to see a win of some description on a random play)

The thing that scares the shit out of me with this is the centrebet/sportsbet gaming apps on the iPhone. This will be such a big money spinner. I can't tell you how many tiems I've been sitting around with my mates watching footy saying "I betcha that.....". Having to go to a TAB or over to a comp to place bets is a barrier that means none of us ever put a bet on. That also means if anyone in the group is susceptible to compulsive gaming in this way - they won't know it because they don't have easy access to it, until now.

Good post. Accessibility is the key, and its no surprise seeing the multitude of 24/7 gambling venues in the low-income areas. These people already have enough to overcome in life. Pokies are seen as an escape route.

During uni i did 12 months work experience at a community legal centre (dealing with both criminal and family law) and it was amazing how much crime and how many family breakdowns are related to gambling, pokies in particular. Seeing people steal from their employers and ruin their lives, or wives punt away a husbands business without him having any idea really changed my attitude to this form of gambling. FWIW i'm not some crazy anti-gambling nazi, I spend a lot of time at the casino playing poker and like to bet on the footy/horses, but I cannot stand pokies.

I also understand the individual bears some responsibility, but often the decisions of these problem gamblers affect many more than just themselves.

Regarding implementation costs I think these should be jointly covered by licensees and the government. Obviously they will be large but given the social and economic costs already associated with gambling they should be tried. Given the society wide trends I can see problem gambling becoming exponentially worse and I think we should at least try and do something to prevent it.

The association between AFL/NRL and pokie revenue is disgusting, especially given the move towards sport becoming more family friendly.

 

[sgbn77]

Semantics perhaps, but isn't the depression resulting from losing your money pretty much worlds apart from clinical/mental depression?

Or does Kennett have to stand up for everyone who is having a bit of a down moment?

I missed my train this morning, that deflated me a bit. I'm not for a second claiming to be in the same headspace as people who can't get out of bed in the morning, and constantly think of suicide.

IMO, Kennett's thoughts on pokies are one conversation. His role as Beyond Blue chairman are another. They aren't always linked.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Semantics perhaps, but isn't the depression resulting from losing your money pretty much worlds apart from clinical/mental depression?

Or does Kennett have to stand up for everyone who is having a bit of a down moment?

I missed my train this morning, that deflated me a bit. I'm not for a second claiming to be in the same headspace as people who can't get out of bed in the morning, and constantly think of suicide.

IMO, Kennett's thoughts on pokies are one conversation. His role as Beyond Blue chairman are another. They aren't always linked.

Yes and no.

One really succinct description of depression is "learned helplessness". This is that whole cant-get-out-of-bed feeling - when your problems appear so insurmountable that it's not even worth taking them on.

Gambling affects lower socio-economic groups more (but not exlusively) than higher SE groups because their financial pressures are such that even with having a household with two full-time incomes you may be just one unexpected event away from not being able to service a homeloan. Gambling presents a way out - a little ray of hope. These people may be working their arses off without any chance at all out of their financial hole - but the chance to boost their cash on the back of a hot tip or a gut feeling is very very appealing.

It's damn hard for people to break the cycle. You can't just pull up stumps and go get a degree if you're supporting a family. You can't just 'get a better paying job' or afford to take a step back and do an apprenticeship if you're currently an unskilled labourer.

So what I'm trying to say is that depression, or helplessness is great fuel for a gambling addiction. Then there's the guilt and self-loathing one goes through once they lose a shitload of cash they couldn't afford to lose. As you say they're not always linked - but I think it's really hard to have a cause-and-effect discussion about the two topics in isolation from each other.

 

[PottSie2]

While I understand pokies are an avenue for people with problems to cause damage ... are they the cause or just an avenue ?

When do we as a society start to put the onus and responsibility of the individual, back on the individual ??

 

[Hawkzzz]

Yes and no.

One really succinct description of depression is "learned helplessness". This is that whole cant-get-out-of-bed feeling - when your problems appear so insurmountable that it's not even worth taking them on.

Gambling affects lower socio-economic groups more (but not exlusively) than higher SE groups because their financial pressures are such that even with having a household with two full-time incomes you may be just one unexpected event away from not being able to service a homeloan. Gambling presents a way out - a little ray of hope. These people may be working their arses off without any chance at all out of their financial hole - but the chance to boost their cash on the back of a hot tip or a gut feeling is very very appealing.

It's damn hard for people to break the cycle. You can't just pull up stumps and go get a degree if you're supporting a family. You can't just 'get a better paying job' or afford to take a step back and do an apprenticeship if you're currently an unskilled labourer.

So what I'm trying to say is that depression, or helplessness is great fuel for a gambling addiction. Then there's the guilt and self-loathing one goes through once they lose a shitload of cash they couldn't afford to lose. As you say they're not always linked - but I think it's really hard to have a cause-and-effect discussion about the two topics in isolation from each other.

Well said LP. I would like to add something. Gambling creates an adrenalin rush that can be extremely addictive.

When you're going through a tough patch in life, that "rush" you feel helps you forget about your problems at the time. So, if you're at the pokies for a few hours, your problems "disappear" and the brain pumps out "feel good" stimulants. Effectively, you're on a high.

Once you leave the venue, your realise your problems are still with you. However, you now associate "feeling good" and the "rush/stimulant" with exactly what you were doing. A common trait is you go home, feel guilty if you lost or justify the decision as "good" if you won.

Whilst you're in this "weakened" mental state, the worst result is if you have a significant win because it helps reinforce this behaviour. That is - problems, feeling down - gamble - get the rush/forget your problems (during the gambling).

We all know the odds regarding Poker Machines. You will end up losing if you keep playing. So eventually you start chasing your losses. Unless you get some serious help, you're in trouble. With all this, many start lying to their families, getting more angry, borrowing off people and/or getting their hands on more credit cards, etc...

Sadly, people think they just want to get their money back. In actual fact, what they really want is to keep experiencing that "rush" and this is the real reason why many want to recoup their losses - to prolong this temporary, false, "feel good" experience.

When the crunch comes and they have to front up to financial mess with their families, friends, banking institutions, lack of bills being paid and phone calls from creditors things can go either way. You can lose friends, families, credibility and this becomes a vicious cycle psychologically. Sometimes the consequences can't be reversed, such as marriage break up. For people that were already feeling down (prior to gambling) or are super stressed/depressed due to gambling, they often become desperate. People can feel like real losers at life.

Sadly, when you're desperate, you're in a state where you can easily make the worst decisions, with even worse consequences, in your life. Statistically, some don't see a way out and don't make it.

The Poker Machine Manufacturers have spent millions of dollars in providing images and sounds that help the brain experience a drug like rush to achieve one simple thing = maximize profits.

Just look at all the signs Poker Machine outlets put up warning you against gambling. They all know how bad it is and they appease their collective consciences with these signs or by contributing to good causes.

There's real life case studies over the net, which are pretty graphic...graphically sad.

 

[pgregory999]

Semantics perhaps, but isn't the depression resulting from losing your money pretty much worlds apart from clinical/mental depression?

Or does Kennett have to stand up for everyone who is having a bit of a down moment?

I missed my train this morning, that deflated me a bit. I'm not for a second claiming to be in the same headspace as people who can't get out of bed in the morning, and constantly think of suicide.

IMO, Kennett's thoughts on pokies are one conversation. His role as Beyond Blue chairman are another. They aren't always linked.

There are pretty clear links between clinical depression and problem gambling - not just the normal process of feeling bad because you've lost money. It's fair to say that there's more research to be done, but it's pretty clear that people with clinical depression are far more likely to have gambling problems, as they are to be addicted to alcohol or drugs - all forms of 'self-medication' to some degree. There's also the feedback loop in play that if you suffer from depression, get addicted to pokies, and lose large sums of money, the impact on relationships, kids, employment etc is going to have a further negative impact.

So Jeff Kennett's role with beyond blue is absolutely relevant to comments he makes about poker machine reforms. Prof John Mendoza (formerly senior advisor to the government on mental health issues) has come out today and publicly said that the profile of beyond blue is being damaged by Kennett's personal views on the pokies issue.

And just re the other point a bit earlier about individuals taking responsibility for their own actions - that's a hard thing when you're talking about addiction of any form. It's not like choosing whether to watch TV or not, there are changes in brain chemistry involved. Yes, ultimately addicts can choose to stop - but it can be a very difficult process. And governments do choose to pass legislation on a whole range of things to reduce the risk of people harming themselves - for instance, heroin is illegal - we don't sell it in milkbars and ask people to be personally responsible for only using it in moderation (sorry, slightly OTT example but you get the point).

The other thing about gambling addiction is the effect on other people - especially partners and kids - who don't have the capacity to just say no. The reforms are also designed to protect these people as well.

 

[Boyler_Room]

May be relevant

Saw this on abc.net.au this morning, seems Kennett is on the board of some poker machine interest group.

"Kennett is further conflicted by his paid gig as chairman of Amtek, a private company aiming to becoming one of the biggest service providers to Victorian pokies venues after Tabcorp and Tattersall's are kicked out of the system in August next year"

Adds another slant.

It seems this issue is one of the more controversial subjects discussed on Bigfooty. Whenever it is brought up there is always heated debate.

 

[HawksonFire]

Very Interesting Debate.... its a complex and emotional issue- gambling and poker machines etc. However, it has i think drifted off point.
Kennett's statement, same other AFL and NRL clubs and Andrew Demitriou... is that there is a very strong reliance on poker machine revenue by AFL clubs. Outside sponsorship, membership and merchandise, clubs rely on poker machine revenue. Millions of dollars in fact. We have a number of clubs effectively running at operating losses in the afl- take a slice out of a major revenue source and some clubs are threatened. Absolutely no doubt about that.

I think Kennett and co have simply made a statement on AFL and NRL club's large reliance (and unhealthy one) on poker machine revenue. All the other related stuff about problem gambling etc is a tangent.... Its a statement of fact, not opinion on whether its a good idea or not. In fact, I have no doubt that Kennet and many of us would love to see less relienace on poker machine revenue. But at present there is and that is a fact.

 

[rdhopkins2]

I hate pokies. I don't play them (well once a year I might lose $10 perhaps). I've said it before that I hate our revenue streams from them but I'm aware that alternate sources are tough to find, though I hope we continue to look elsewhere in developing new initiatives.

 

[seysearles]

So Jeff thinks that proposed legislation to limit the losses of problem gamblers will 'threaten the survival' of Australian Rules Football.

Yet another example of why it has been such a complete embarrassment to have him as our President. I also don't know how he can be involved in anti-depression campaigns with a straight face and oppose problem gambling reform. Can't wait til he's gone. What date does his term finish?

Im not flying the flag for pokies here because frankly i think theyre awful, but they do bring a lot of cash into our sport. Ultimately, we as supporters would have to pay for this moral stance. The money that is no longer there from pokies would have to come from increased ticket and membership prices. So those of us scorning the opportunism of the AFL for taking advantage of gamblers better not be the ones cursing when they feel the effects of them recouping that lost income from the general public by other means.

 

[capitalhawk]

Jeff on ABC Newsradio today. A bit of perspective.
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/newsradio/audio/20110930-kennett.mp3

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Im not flying the flag for pokies here because frankly i think theyre awful, but they do bring a lot of cash into our sport. Ultimately, we as supporters would have to pay for this moral stance. The money that is no longer there from pokies would have to come from increased ticket and membership prices. So those of us scorning the opportunism of the AFL for taking advantage of gamblers better not be the ones cursing when they feel the effects of them recouping that lost income from the general public by other means.

There is a midpoint - which is what the AFL should be aiming for at this stage.

There is a huge reliance on gambling income. To stop it overnight would have the effects you've stated as well as sending a couple of clubs to the wall.

There needs to be some kind of plan in place to gradually reduce the reliance on gambling. The government's reforms are probably a good first step - as it won't completely cut off the revenue, but will reduce it and force clubs and the league to look elsewhere.

Unfortunately the clubs and the league are pushing the "we don't want to look elsewhere" angle rather than just getting on with it.

 

[lickmerocks]

Good post. Accessibility is the key, and its no surprise seeing the multitude of 24/7 gambling venues in the low-income areas. These people already have enough to overcome in life. Pokies are seen as an escape route.

During uni i did 12 months work experience at a community legal centre (dealing with both criminal and family law) and it was amazing how much crime and how many family breakdowns are related to gambling, pokies in particular. Seeing people steal from their employers and ruin their lives, or wives punt away a husbands business without him having any idea really changed my attitude to this form of gambling. FWIW i'm not some crazy anti-gambling nazi, I spend a lot of time at the casino playing poker and like to bet on the footy/horses, but I cannot stand pokies.

I also understand the individual bears some responsibility, but often the decisions of these problem gamblers affect many more than just themselves.

Regarding implementation costs I think these should be jointly covered by licensees and the government. Obviously they will be large but given the social and economic costs already associated with gambling they should be tried. Given the society wide trends I can see problem gambling becoming exponentially worse and I think we should at least try and do something to prevent it.

The association between AFL/NRL and pokie revenue is disgusting, especially given the move towards sport becoming more family friendly.

good post.
the AFL tip toes aorund this issue because at the end of the day they are lining their own pockets with a slice of the pie.

No individual club is allowed to be sponsored by alcohol or tobacco because they can be addictive yet some clubs now are allowed to have a gambling company on their jumpers. LOL.

What makes me laugh even more is the AFL major partner is CUB and beer ads pop every 3 minutes. Hello!!!

At the games we have odds yelled out us at the end of each qtr on the screen. our mobile phone apps are sponsored by gambling associations.

It just never ends.

I have a 4 month old and to be honest am a little worried at how much gambling is being shoved in our face everywhere I look.

Jeffrey has been majorly conflicted. he knows our 150 odd poker machines we own bring in yearly an enormous amount of money to our club. He also would know how many people have suffered depression and lost everything due to gambling so which hat does he put on???

We can put our heads in the sand and say "everyone needs to be responsiole for their own actions and everyone has the rights to a gamble etc but the facts are until you have your own house burgled by a gambling addict or have someone in your own family suffer depression and lose everything due to gambling then you really should think about things a little more.

 

[Vanstead]

the AFL tip toes aorund this issue because at the end of the day they are lining their own pockets with a slice of the pie.

This.

I love a beer and a bet - TAB, Internet, Casino, whatever. I'm lucky, it has never been addictive.

Pokies to my mind are the most disgraceful and insidious forms of gambling. There they sit in a special neon room to allow on-site smoking and close to a bar to facilitate drinking - all they need is the injecting room and plasma TVs showing pr0n to complete the deal.

It is laughable that the AFL holds the moral compass here.
Adrian Anderson justified the AFL carrying gambling advertising by saying that the AFL needs the relationship with betting companies to assist in flushing out the illegal player/officials who bet on the sport. Wtf?

They pontificate about player welfare, police every part of their lives - test them for drugs totally irrelevant to their work performance, censor their right to free speech, yet provide the phone number and the odds on the big screen for the club trainers to fire off a bet on the mobile from the sideline. Perhaps they could order in the AFL's "official burger" with fries and a coke at the same time. Oh but wait, it probably has the 'tick' from the heart foundation.

They should feel a responsibility as the country's biggest sport to promote health and well-being on ALL fronts. This is but one example of a huge double-standard.

Who else in the current climate had received year-on-year double-digit pay rises? Perhaps they could use that money to fund the clubs.

 

[pgregory999]

In fact, I have no doubt that Kennet and many of us would love to see less relienace on poker machine revenue. But at present there is and that is a fact.

Not sure how you come to this conclusion. Jeff Kennett has had many opportunities over the years to publicly support reducing poker machine revenue, but I have never heard him do so - but he HAS expressed the contrary opinion.

As an earlier poster pointed out, he is also on the board of a company that services poker machines. This is a conflict of interest in itself with respect to both his recent comments about poker machine reforms, and also his role in beyond blue.

His comments have certainly brought even more negative media attention to his role with beyond blue, re the recent departure of the CEO and concerns about board members flying business class. With any luck he will soon no longer have any association with Hawthorn or beyond blue, at which point his conflicts of interest will disappear and he can say whatever he likes

 

[lickmerocks]

This.

I love a beer and a bet - TAB, Internet, Casino, whatever. I'm lucky, it has never been addictive.

Pokies to my mind are the most disgraceful and insidious forms of gambling. There they sit in a special neon room to allow on-site smoking and close to a bar to facilitate drinking - all they need is the injecting room and plasma TVs showing pr0n to complete the deal.

It is laughable that the AFL holds the moral compass here.
Adrian Anderson justified the AFL carrying gambling advertising by saying that the AFL needs the relationship with betting companies to assist in flushing out the illegal player/officials who bet on the sport. Wtf?

They pontificate about player welfare, police every part of their lives - test them for drugs totally irrelevant to their work performance, censor their right to free speech, yet provide the phone number and the odds on the big screen for the club trainers to fire off a bet on the mobile from the sideline. Perhaps they could order in the AFL's "official burger" with fries and a coke at the same time. Oh but wait, it probably has the 'tick' from the heart foundation.

They should feel a responsibility as the country's biggest sport to promote health and well-being on ALL fronts. This is but one example of a huge double-standard.

Who else in the current climate had received year-on-year double-digit pay rises? Perhaps they could use that money to fund the clubs.

its laughable how hypocritical the whole set up is really.

I love the way the AFL always go on about grass roots football and putting the money back towards the kids yet at the same time every time they get one of these same kids parents to gamble they profit out of it and line their very own pockets at the end of each fin year.

What about these grass roots kids watching a game on tv with live betting odds and markets popping up?

Im really surprised they are not advertising brothels yet to be honest during games. Perhaps this will be next because they are legal.

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

Clubs paid for licences with set terms and conditions. How can you possibly do business if those terms and conditions are changed post purchase? Perfectly logical for a major stakeholder to speak out.

JK is with us and Beyound Blue, so what? He may also have shares with CUB - there is another conflict as depressed persons hit the gas. Depressed persons abuse pharmacuetical products - does JK have any interest in Sigma?

Shameful to trivialise depression. Grow up. I earn my money lawfully and will spend it lawfully, on grog, gambling, drugs and whores. God bless Australia.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Are you serious? You ever dropped $300k on a couple of beers, or some pharmaceuticals?

Regulatory risk is not a new concept, especially in areas that are particularly high risk like gambling/tobacco etc.

They'll do their lobbying etc but they can hardly claim they had concrete conditions and are thus entitled to continue to exploit degenerate gamblers in perpetuity.

 

[wallyt99]

Hmmmm..... I'm sure many people who are compulsive gamblers suffer depression, and vice versa.

Conflict of interest much. Tsk Tsk Tsk.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Theyre trying to stop a problem that has alwayseen there.

EGM's are not the issue, people losing is the issue, which i think people forget.

People will still Lose regardless.
All this issue will do is send people to other avenues in a vein attempt to recoup their losses

 

[TAITA]

Which came first - the chicken or the egg?

My problem with the OP is that he implicates that mental health and poker machines are intrinsically linked.

Are they?

I'm addicted to booze and smokes, a mate is addicted to coke, another is addicted to pissing his weekly wage up against the wall on the neddy's, and we are all addicted to Hawthorn - it gives us something to bang on about.

Yet we can simply add 2 + 2 to = 5 and say a bloke who has given his time freely to both organisations has some massive conflict of interest because people who lose their money get massively depressed.

Well, no shit Sherlock.

Aside from the fact that you are pissing on everyone who has ever suffered mental health issues, apparently 1 in 5 of us, you are pissing on the spokesman for that cause.

Troubled people are far less likely to seek help when they are stereotyped.

As you were.........