Lance Armstrong formally charged with doping

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I can't believe that some people think Armstrong is innocent, talk about niave!

When most if not all top cyclists are on epo etc.. How could someone win in a 7 in a row and be clean, c'mon , where's everyone's common sense in this?

I know a pro cyclist & he said unless you are on something you wouldn't finish in the top 100 , it's just part of the sport if you want to succeed .

Half of them don't even know what they are taking the just do what the team Doc says.
 
Four Corners have been interviewing key witnesses and will have a program on Armstrong in the coming weeks. I hope they go into Tourism SA and the "donation" to Armstrong from Rann than went into his bank account and not the Livestrong cancer foundation like Rann spruiked. This is what I mean by the system is set up, and Cancat, you are not getting the truth. Dont be a gullible rube like I have been. We were pawns, are pawns. Armstrong was a pawn. I dont think he cheated on the terms the peloton had reconciled decades before his professional career.
 
catman 71 said:
"It would take more than witnesses with close to no credibility for everyone to see him as guilty".

No, all it takes is a decietful media, and an insecure and gullible public. That often does the trick.

Look at how everyone accepted Lindy Chamberlain's guilt without question!
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Bullshit to the bald bit. There was a significant chunk of society who didn't believe the hysterical media and when Joy Kuhl destroyed her forensic evidence it raised plenty of doubts about the prosecutions case. Yes the majority accepted it because it was a very different death/disapperance case, but as time rolled on and more facts came out, people woke up. Your "everyone" is an exaggeration like some of your other calls. The information has been slowly getting out to the masses. The 1,000 page report when released will leave only the ignorant or gulliable in doubt.
 

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Burning Desire said:
I can't believe that some people think Armstrong is innocent, talk about niave!

When most if not all top cyclists are on epo etc.. How could someone win in a 7 in a row and be clean, c'mon , where's everyone's common sense in this?

I know a pro cyclist & he said unless you are on something you wouldn't finish in the top 100 , it's just part of the sport if you want to succeed .

Half of them don't even know what they are taking the just do what the team Doc says.
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Then, according to him, that means that Cadel Evans is a doper!

Why would every other winner for years be guilty, and he not be?
 
catman 71 said:
If Lance Armstrong was Joe Average, media and society would be decrying the persecution that USADA re carrying out.
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If Lance Armstrong was Joe Average he wouldn't need to get invoved in doping because he wouldn't need to compete against other dopers. silly analogy.
 
thing is, Joe Average, Jon Doe, they go down without a whimper. The big fish are protected. Cancat you have it all @rse backwards.

Were there Collingwood players in 2010 that gave abnormal readings on their urine tests, for hormone parameters.

This is not about Collingwood, cos I reckon 95% of AFL players are on gear. But they were never gonna pop Collingwood. They just wanted them to not give samples that were sooo abnormal, they could have medical consequences

my opinion.

for others info, I would stake my life on the account that Phantom and Cancat HAVE NOT read the 200 page summary, and are engaging in astroturfing from the same page of talking points as each other.

I dont think they are engaging in good faith dialogue. I challenge you to demonstrate I am engaging in bad faith rebuttal.
 
catman 71 said:
I notice that no-one has refuted this argument of mine yet, or pointed out where I am wrong.

So, we all agree then that society is hypocritical in who they hold accountable for drug use?
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Dr Robin Parisotto the bloke who invented the urine and blood ON and OFF test for EPO agrees with the hypocracy angle as do I, but this is his agrgument as to why sport should rise above it, in his book is

Pages 234 and 235 (final two in the Epilogue) of Blood Sports - The inside dope on drugs in sport

But on the other hand it's just a game. Should sporting performances and human ability be limited to what nature has given us if sport is simply another form of entertainment? Why would society need to persist with the notion of purity of sport? Why do we scold an athlete who may have taken an upper legitimately yet often expect screen and stage performers to take them so that they can keep entertaining us? Ultimately what is the difference between the two?

Tomorrow's society may demand to see drug-laden and genetically morphed athletes performing super human feats? Could we then be leading back to gladiatorial times when games were fought to the death, only this time without weapons, but with drugs? There has to be a seachange, because ultimately it is the athletes who will hurt the most. Perhaps the answer lies with them alone, for it is they who have the most to lose.

In the end though, sport isn't just about entertainment it's about strengthening character, focusing efforts and improving physical condition. And it's the athletes themselves that have to show that character, it's sports people, not the testers and the politicians that will determine whether this battle is won. They can choose to dope or not.

The future is uncertain with genetic doping now a reality, its potential to permanently change world sport. Present day drugs are already doing irreparable damage to the credibility of sport and to the health of elite athletes. Genetic doping may be the final straw.

But today at least, for the cheating athletes who have had more blood than human nature has given them, as long as the will to catch them continues they will slowly and surely be caught.
 
catman 71 said:
Then, according to him, that means that Cadel Evans is a doper!

Why would every other winner for years be guilty, and he not be?
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Listen loud & clear , any cyclist even near the top is on something just like most Olympians.
Did you know 6 months leading into the London Olympics there was a world shortage of HGH, ask your Doc or Pharmacist, he will confirm.
I know a Doc who openly admits to working with cycling &'athletic teams, he was paid to administer & monitor the athletes using all sorts of substances.
There is heaps of designer drugs that ain't illegal yet , search SARM or Ostarine for instance .
 
Burning Desire said:
Listen loud & clear , any cyclist even near the top is on something just like most Olympians.
Did you know 6 months leading into the London Olympics there was a world shortage of HGH, ask your Doc or Pharmacist, he will confirm.
I know a Doc who openly admits to working with cycling &'athletic teams, he was paid to administer & monitor the athletes using all sorts of substances.
There is heaps of designer drugs that ain't illegal yet , search SARM or Ostarine for instance .
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thanks Burning and Ebert Handball for a dose of rationality
 
Watched...I mean I was flicking through the channels and landed on Arthur! Who was it? But Lance Armstrong! Helping Binkey to get votes for more bike lanes. What a nice guy.
 
catman 71 said:
I notice that no-one has refuted this argument of mine yet, or pointed out where I am wrong.

So, we all agree then that society is hypocritical in who they hold accountable for drug use?
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Because many of the drugs Armstrong took are not illegal in general society. He has been busted for cheating - breaking the rules of the sport. No different to the Storm getting done for salary cap infringements. It's not illegal to pay people money for doing a job, but there are rules governing the sport as to how it is done.

No one is equating Armstrong or his doctors with the illegal drug trade. That would be like equating the Storm management with armed robbery. All the attention on Armstrong is because a) He's American b) He was incredibly successful and c) he built up a massive celebrity off-field personae. He's a movie star-level celeb.

To say 'Oh, the time has passed - let's ignore it' is to undermine the sport. Either a sport has rules (and they are by definition arbitrary and apply only to that sport). or you have no sport. International cycling is one of the world's largest sports. And PEDs are a massive issue in almost all sports.
 

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blackcat said:
for others info, I would stake my life on the account that Phantom and Cancat HAVE NOT read the 200 page summary, and are engaging in astroturfing from the same page of talking points as each other.

I dont think they are engaging in good faith dialogue. I challenge you to demonstrate I am engaging in bad faith rebuttal.
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Are you talking about me? Because if so I can assure you I have read the excerpt, in any event I have no idea what you are trying to say about me, what the hell is "astroturfing"?
 
I know for some this is like finding out santa isn't real.
I am no way an ardent cycling fan but as my wife is an active triathlon competitor I have jumped on the Tour de france band wagon with her on a yearly basis and have admired the 'athletes' these cyclists are.
I had a lot of respect and admiration for Armstrong but it not all that glitters is gold and I am left more than a little non plussed with the fraud this bloke is..
 
to me the reporting and comments coming from the general public seem to be missing the point.

whilst everyone is pointing the finger at lance, and that can be expected to a large degree, what doesn't seem to be tackled is the epidemic of PEDs in cycling. I might be a bit naive towards other sports but it does seem that cycling has the biggest problem of all major sports. even just looking at the mechanics of a sport were legs are the overwhelming muscle group used there is going to be higher chances of a problem because the legs, being such big muscles, can go for a hell of a lot longer than other muscle groups, in particular the heart.

but say they strip armstrong of his titles, then what? if they give them to someone else that person is likely to be a doper and/or have a large cloud of suspicion hanging over their head...

there is a massive witchunt on lance, but as far as i can see few want to touch the broader much bigger issue
 
Black Thunder said:
to me the reporting and comments coming from the general public seem to be missing the point.

whilst everyone is pointing the finger at lance, and that can be expected to a large degree, what doesn't seem to be tackled is the epidemic of PEDs in cycling. I might be a bit naive towards other sports but it does seem that cycling has the biggest problem of all major sports. even just looking at the mechanics of a sport were legs are the overwhelming muscle group used there is going to be higher chances of a problem because the legs, being such big muscles, can go for a hell of a lot longer than other muscle groups, in particular the heart.

but say they strip armstrong of his titles, then what? if they give them to someone else that person is likely to be a doper and/or have a large cloud of suspicion hanging over their head...

there is a massive witchunt on lance, but as far as i can see few want to touch the broader much bigger issue
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facepalm.gif
 
KnobHead said:
You raised many interesting points, but at day's end Armstrong decided not to contest the charges.

If he had a case to put, which may or may not have included some of the points you raised, surely he would've put them with 7 flags on the line and his credibility. Yet he chose not to.

As for Australians and doping, sure, it could happen. And i wouldn't be surprised if a few of our boys have doped.

As for drug cheats giving evidence, it's not just drug cheats giving evidence against Armstrong, it's others as well and they're all saying the same thing.
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Agree. I'm 99.99% certain that Rogers & Porte were on the juice during this year's TdF, when UK Postal dominated proceedings to a degree which has no non-pharmaceutical explanation. It's only a matter of when, not if, Wiggins is stripped of his TdF win and the entire Team Sky TdF squad rubbed out for 2 years.
 
catman 71 said:
I believe that where there is PROOF, there is fire!

So far, little proof, just circumstantial evidence from drug cheats and people who were fired from Lance's team..
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in the US they put people to death with less eye-witness testimony

eye-witness is not circumstantial. Ask Jeff Novitsky about Sheryl Crow.

Vader said:
It's only a matter of when, not if, Wiggins is stripped of his TdF win and the entire Team Sky TdF squad rubbed out for 2 years.
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Cant agree. They will not be greedy and stay too long. Then it is in cycling and the Tour's interest, not to "out" and dethrone more champions. So the system will enforce the protection.

phantom13 said:
Are you talking about me? Because if so I can assure you I have read the excerpt, in any event I have no idea what you are trying to say about me, what the hell is "astroturfing"?
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because Race Radio posted the 200 page script only hours before. I assume that none of the Armstrong camp had time to read it when they could rehash the talking points that they put out for fanbois
 
Freakie said:
I've now worked out that catman is lance
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Nah.. he's just a serial troll. Picks a hot topic on a given board and then trolls the hell out of anyone gullible enough to engage him.

He's been spotted on the Adelaide Board before, trolling us over our anger at the way in which Gunston & Tippett engineered their departures from the club.

Have to admit, he is one master troll. Should be restricted to Bay 13 though.
 
Black Thunder said:
to me the reporting and comments coming from the general public seem to be missing the point.

whilst everyone is pointing the finger at lance, and that can be expected to a large degree, what doesn't seem to be tackled is the epidemic of PEDs in cycling. I might be a bit naive towards other sports but it does seem that cycling has the biggest problem of all major sports. even just looking at the mechanics of a sport were legs are the overwhelming muscle group used there is going to be higher chances of a problem because the legs, being such big muscles, can go for a hell of a lot longer than other muscle groups, in particular the heart.

but say they strip armstrong of his titles, then what? if they give them to someone else that person is likely to be a doper and/or have a large cloud of suspicion hanging over their head...

there is a massive witchunt on lance, but as far as i can see few want to touch the broader much bigger issue
Click to expand...

all professional sports have PEDs to the same degree cycling has imo. Just cycling has the worst rap. AFL would have 95% of players, imo, on something.

NFL, NBA, MLB.

all olympic finals in T&F, swimming,

weightlifting lol like bodybuilding
 
Vader said:
Nah.. he's just a serial troll. Picks a hot topic on a given board and then trolls the hell out of anyone gullible enough to engage him.

He's been spotted on the Adelaide Board before, trolling us over our anger at the way in which Gunston & Tippett engineered their departures from the club.

Have to admit, he is one master troll. Should be restricted to Bay 13 though.
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Yeah realized he was trolling as no one except Kurt Tippet is that stupid!
 
Vader said:
Agree. I'm 99.99% certain that Rogers & Porte were on the juice during this year's TdF, when UK Postal dominated proceedings to a degree which has no non-pharmaceutical explanation. It's only a matter of when, not if, Wiggins is stripped of his TdF win and the entire Team Sky TdF squad rubbed out for 2 years.
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As poster Burning Desire said on the previous page, the pro he knows reckons you cannot be in the top100 in a GT if you are on bread and water. Plus, the sprinters are the equivalent of GC men, but they are holding the red lantern at the back of the field. They need a different help, blood and oxygen vectors, not quite as important, still important, but need more strength gear. I would be surprised if GreenEdge is any different. Its what the sport takes to make it in Europe
 
Read all of the 200 pages of the reasoned decision + the over 800 pages of the appendicies + USADA's press release at their website

http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

Just click on the various tabs. But If you don't want to read all that then just go direct to the George Hincapie's 16 page Affidavit @

http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie, George Affidavit.pdf

Interesting to watch ABC Grandstand last night and watch Wilko continue the media "I knew nothing approach" and his we been cheated attitude. He talks to cycling promoter and Cycling Australia board member who has served on several UCI committees and is still on one, Phil Bates, who whilst being critical of Armstrong, plays dumb that he was gutted by the news and that it was a terrible for cycling. Talks about cheating fans but I suspect there is a bit of self interest in his being gutted. "The evidence is insummonable and no longer heresay" according to Bates. Whilst Bates is participating in a bit of the cover your arse principal he is pretty revealing about what and how the industry works. He said USADA has only tested Armstrong 29 times, 13 during his main career and 16 when he came back. Watch Grandstand program at...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-11/grandstand-thursday-11-october/4308730?section=sport

4 Corners will have a story on Monday. They obviously have been working on this story for months and you see some footage from the story in last nights Grandstand story including an interview with USADA CEO Travis Tygart.

-----
blackcat have you had dealings with Bates? What did you think of his interview with Wilko on Grandstand?
 

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Lance Armstrong formally charged with doping

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