Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

NOT CHANGED.

SR writes
Williams St Kilda 1910.
The original players hand-written register, has F.W.
with Frank W. on the St Kilda 1910 sheet,
so we'd be reluctant to change that.

So Wiki, AFLT, and Oliver G make sure you revert back to this if you had changed it. player is still Frank Wall Williams.

The official records have Frank Williams playing 5 games for St Kilda in 1910: Frank Williams (Australian footballer, born 1884) - Wikipedia
View attachment 1183410

This is the person the records have in mind:
View attachment 1183412
View attachment 1183413
View attachment 1183414

This player went from Victoria to WA in June 1906:
View attachment 1183424

He was known as Bendigo Lily when playing for James FC:
View attachment 1183421
This refers to the player from James FC trying out with West Perth in 1908:
View attachment 1183428

View attachment 1183439

Here he is heading back home to Bendigo (not Maffra) from West Perth in late-July 1909: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/76785872
View attachment 1183411

There's plenty of references in the papers to the St Kilda player being from West Perth (or just Perth), so most likely he went from Bendigo to Melbourne early in 1910.
View attachment 1182967
Collingwood Forever has Frank Williams playing 2 games for Collingwood District in July 1911, soon after F. B. Williams joined that club from St Kilda. It would surely have to be the player who had the stint in WA, so Frank B. Williams, not Frank W. Williams.

This chap is my strong favourite!:
View attachment 1183394
View attachment 1183395
There's a Frank Baker Williams living at Bendigo a few years later, and seemingly for some time after that:
View attachment 1183406
View attachment 1183408

There's also someone with that name living in Melbourne at about the right time:
View attachment 1183405
Once again, this is a rather long-winded post from me, so sorry about that, but what we are doing here is bloody serious stuff, and I don't mind taking my time with it, and trying to provide as much information as possible!! While I'm almost certain the person who the official records have as the 1910 St Kilda player (Frank Wall Williams) isn't the right chap, I'm not 100% convinced I have it right either (though I probably have!). So if anyone wants to jump in and assist, please do!

 

[rbartlett]

NOT CHANGED

Billett of Fitzroy 1918
He is William in the hand-written players register,
and on the original R.H.Campbell sheet he is W.L.
Also, for South Melbourne 1923, William in the players register, and W.L. on the Campbell South Melbourne sheet.
William in the clearance.
Also William L. in the Sowdon sheets.
Hard to go against that W.L. when it's mentioned at least two or three times.


So revert back to William Leo Billett

Billy Billett (Northcote, Brunswick, Fitzroy, Yarraville, SM) is listed as having DOB 21 May 1888 and DOD 28 January 1956 in football records.
These dates are for William Leo Billett (although Ancestry 57 trees incorrectly have 2 Feb 1888 as DOB, NSW BDM records confirm 21 May 1888 as registered birth date). Born Parramatta, married Agnes Sutherland in Oct 1912 and had at least 6 children in Sydney in the period 1913-1926. Can't find him in electoral records but this article shows he was a tram conductor in Sydney from 1911-1917.

The VFA Project shows W. Billett played for Northcote from 1912-1914 and then Brunswick in 1915 before playing for Fitzroy in 1918, Yarraville and then SM in 1923.

Clearly William Leo Billett is not the footballer but my searches of Trove, Vic BDM and Ancestry have failed to turn up a viable candidate - anyone else able to work out who he was? This article from 1922 has a photo of him but I haven't found any personal info about him at all from football related articles.

notes:

• I have found no evidence he had any middle name, sources citing a middle initial "L" seem to have taken this from William Leo
• Not convinced he was a William - he is referred to as Bill but possibly could be Wilbur or some other name variant
• Given football career of 1912 to 1925 likely birth date of 1890-1895

 

[rbartlett]

NOT CHANGED

SR writes
Thorpe of Fitzroy
He definitely appears to be J.L. in the original Campbell 1908 Fitzroy sheet. (The player above, has E. as a middle initial, and it definitely doesn't look like that.) Unfortunately he doesn't seem to be in the Clearance book.


So revert back to James Lyell Thorpe if required

The game's records have this chap playing for Fitzroy in 1908:
View attachment 1340777
I think they have the wrong person, and that it's very likely the player was:
View attachment 1340778
He was known as Egbert (Bert), presumably because his father was also James:
View attachment 1340793

View attachment 1340794
Bert Thorpe played with Collingwood District (Collingwood's unofficial reserves team at the time) for many years:
View attachment 1340796
It would be very surprising if that wasn’t the player who played senior football with Fitzroy in 1908. I think the AFL chaps may have picked the wrong James!! Thorpe played for Fitzroy 2 May and 13 June 1908. Bert Thorpe plays the 1909 Rd. 1 game for CD (Collingwood District) on May 1st, just a couple of days after J. E. Thorpe joined from Fitzroy, and stays in the team pretty much from then on. So I’m sure J. E. Thorpe and Bert Thorpe will be the same person! We have Thorpe playing 3 games in 1907, but (this is where it gets tricky!) also 1 game in 1908. That’s a Rd. 5 game, played on 30 May. So did he leave CD for Fitzroy at the start of 1908 (or even during 1907), return briefly, head back to Fitzroy soon after, then go back to CD at the start of the following year?! I think he must have, but it does seem strange! That’s about the only doubt I have with this.

He lived with his parents at North Fitzroy around the time he played for Fitzroy:
View attachment 1340803
The family had been living at that address for quite a few years.
View attachment 1340822
===============================View attachment 1340823
When he made his Fitzroy debut the four "main" papers said he was from Clifton Hill:
View attachment 1340810
Clifton Hill is very close to North Fitzroy, so perhaps they mean the area rather than the football club. There's an E. Thorpe in a 1906 Spensley Street Methodist FC team photo. There's also a D. Thorpe, and Egbert/Bert had a younger brother, Daniel. Spensley Street is at Clifton Hill. A significant number of the players in that team photo went on to play for Collingwood District, with Jack Edgley and (almost certainly) Bert Thorpe playing for CD and at senior level with Fitzroy. At Fitzroy he played on the wing, at CD he usually played as a centreman:
View attachment 1340833
This does suggest Thorpe was quite well known at the time he played his first game of 1909 for CD:
View attachment 1340843

If anyone has anything to add please do so! While I know for sure James Egbert Thorpe was living in the perfect spot (Fitzroy area) in 1908, I'd like to know where James Lyell Thorpe was by then, but haven't found him. By 1914 (when he enlisted) he seems to have been living in NSW, and spent the rest of his days there. By 1905 his parents and three siblings were living in Lyttelton New Zealand, but it doesn't look as if he was with them.

 

[rbartlett]

And that's the end of Part 2 of SR's feedback.

5 pages more to go.

 

[stemline]

1988 R16 Syd v Haw - Behind Correction for Swans

All references online for this game have Graeme Cordy kicking no behinds, and 3 Rushed for the Swans.

G.Cordy kicks one behind in this game per the video below. All other player scores align, but there are only 2 Rushed behinds for the Swans.



Summary -

1988 Rnd 16 (Syd v Haw) - Graeme Cordy plus 1 behind, 'Rushed for Sydney' minus 1 behind.

 

[rbartlett]

Rd 9 1922 Richmond v StKilda free kicks are found below: StK 54, Richmond 37.

Australian Football - Match Details: 1922 R9 Richmond vs St. Kilda

australianfootball.com

 

[rbartlett]

Quite specific stats in the Emerald Hill record for Rd 10 1953 Sth Melb v Richmond
Free kicks for both teams, Total Marks, individual player marks, throw-ins, how behinds were kicked, and number of rushed etc.

Australian Football - Match Details: 1953 R10 South Melbourne vs Richmond

australianfootball.com

Oliver G

 

[rbartlett]

Rd 14 1945 Richmond vs South Melb free kick stats (includes a breakdown at end of article by a supporter)

Australian Football - Match Details: 1945 R14 South Melbourne vs Richmond

australianfootball.com

 

[rbartlett]

Whilst it looks like you have the majority of these stats already on the Rd 13 1936 Rich v Coll match , you are missing the hit outs which are mentioned at the bottom of article
"Collingwood obtained 15 and Richmond 14 out of the hit-outs of the centre"

Richmond's Play Full Of Errors - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 5 Aug 1936

The errors (R. 30, C. I 3) shown in on analysis of my figures in the main game on Saturday at Richmond account for Collingwood’s clear-cut ...

nla.gov.au

Australian Football - Match Details: 1936 R13 Richmond vs Collingwood

australianfootball.com

Oliver G (I know you have a huge backlog of data to upload - but you're doing a mighty job in the pre-1965 stats era)

 

[rbartlett]

Semi Final 1947 Fitzroy v Richmond
Free kicks and Marks tallies below
Oliver G

Australian Football - Match Details: 1947 1SF Fitzroy vs Richmond

australianfootball.com

 

[Oliver G]

Semi Final 1947 Fitzroy v Richmond
Free kicks and Marks tallies below
Oliver G

Australian Football - Match Details: 1947 1SF Fitzroy vs Richmond

australianfootball.com

Thanks Rhett, unfortunately the way the AF stats tables currently display team stats is by tallying up the individual player data, so for the time being I'll add these team stats to the footnotes section on the match pages. Down the track with AF 2.0 we'll have a way to integrate team data more smoothly.

From memory the Globe did team stats for marks and free kicks on and off over the years, so I'm sure there will be more matches to uncover. When I get a bit of time I'll do an audit on the Globe to get a better idea.

 

[rbartlett]

Feedback from SR

"Casey, Round 15, 1899
again, this one seems inconclusive; currently we still have the game going to Casey"

So Rd 15 1899 keeps Casey in Carlton side for that match.

Bill Casey is in the records as having played for Carlton vs. Fitzroy in the 1899 Sectional Rd. 1 (Rd. 15) game, but it seems very likely he didn't play: AFL Tables - Fitzroy v Carlton - Sat, 26-Aug-1899 2:30 PM - Match Stats
View attachment 1506940
View attachment 1506941
The Herald does name Casey in the side for that game:
View attachment 1506945
But this bit in the same paper a week later probably suggests he'd been out of the team:
View attachment 1506944
If Casey is to come out of the side obviously a replacement needs to be found, but I haven't spotted the name (of a player who wasn't named) yet. Bill Sharkey is in the team a week later, without being mentioned as an 'in', and I'm wondering if he was a late replacement for Casey against Fitzroy. Sharkey was in the team for Carlton's previous game (Rd. 14 - played 12 August). He was named in the squad for the Fitzroy game:
View attachment 1506984

 

[rbartlett]

The recorded birth date for Alec Tayler (Geelong) appears to be incorrect - it currently 16 May 1892 in all sources I can find.

The player was ex-Lara (was a foundation player in 1920) and played five senior games for Geelong in the second half of the 1923 season - this would have made him 31 on debut which was unusually old for that period. He was still playing as late as 1925.

I put a bunch of Trove refs into his wiki page and am confident he is correctly identified as Alexander Tayler, son of Charles William Tayler and Mary Ann McHarry.

Vic BDM search shows his records as:
View attachment 1530573

This suggests an 1898 birth - meaning he would have been 24-25 at the time he played and his recorded age at death also supports an 1898 date. Not sure why an 1892 date has been used but it appears to be wrong. Have not been able to find an exact date - is anyone on here able to find the exact date?

SR advises no change. Alex Tayley dob to remain at 16 May 1892 as SR believes he got that date from their contact at BDM and also "no Summary as yet, so no change yet."

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes
"Bill Taylor
without a Summary, and exact dates, no change yet. Intriguingly, we have always had the height/weight of the much bigger man, rather than what's in the WW2 record of the smaller man "

So no change.

Bill Taylor (Geelong) appears to be another mis-identified player.

This article in the Weekly Times describes him in some detail

• Aged 23 in Sept 1926 – i.e. born between Sep 1902 and Sep 1903
• “Son of the soil” – from a farming family
• Lived with his parents on a farm at Smeaton
• When aged 16 (1919) he played with Smeaton
• In 1922 Golden Point in Ballarat secured his services

Current dates of birth & death for Bill Taylor in football records seem to be those for William Mortimer Taylor, born in Skelton in Cleveland, Yorkshire, England and died in Heidelberg. This man served in the Royal Air Force in the UK at the end of WWI and apparently came to Australia in the early 1920s and initially settled in NSW. In August 1924 he was sentenced to 12 months imprisonment for indecently assaulting a three year old girl.

The first time I can find him in Victoria is in news reports stating he was living in Woori Yallock in 1939 and he also served in WWII. Probate records confirm date of death as 3 Apr 1977.

He cannot be the footballer given the description in article above.

Searching families called Taylor living in Smeaton gave me one viable candidate - William Taylor, son of William James Taylor (1868–1951) and Philippa Sophia Baker (1874–1923)

Born in Smeaton in 1903 (Vic BDM 1903/13658) likely to be mid year based on index number
Died in Creswick in early 1979 (Vic BDM 1979/3515) see photo of grave here (note grave incorrectly has 1904 as year of birth)

I think AFL will want exact dates of birth/death if we propose a change so if anyone is able to find specific dates that would be a great help.

 

[rbartlett]

SR said they are sticking with 10-12-1924 for Doug Heywood dob until they access birth certificate through a contact

Doug Heywood (Melb), later commentator with ABC and 3AW, has DOB 10 Dec 1924 in football records.

However newspaper birth notice shows a date of 12 Dec 1924

Seems almost certain that 12 Dec 1924 is the correct date given the notice above but the 10 Dec 1924 date appears in Scotch College records and his WWII service record so it is possible that he might have believed it was 10 Dec 1924 himself.

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes re Bill Jones

Jones
This is a shocker! He's not in the players register (don't know why; should have been - playing early in the season). Campbell calls him J. Jones; and Col in Cats Tales calls him John Jones. No clearances (not unexpected). Accentuating this, is that we've got a William Herbert Jones (19 - 9 - 1897 to 11 - 7 - 1967) debuting for Geelong in 1920. (And for him, we've noted that he played for Geelong at the same time as another William H. - would you believe! -
William Henry "Jockie" Jones.)
Also (you would know) another William Henry Jones, debuting for Richmond in 1911 (plus a later Fitzroy one, 1941).

So it looks like the new DOB is 24 Aug 1941 so wiki needs to be update please

Looks like DOD is 24 Aug 1941...

View attachment 1621780

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes

Goals with first kick
As you say, not sure about Travis Payze at this stage. But added:

Harry Hickey - Foots
Mick Mulligan - S.Melb
we'll leave it at the confirmed 2 from 2 for now; ambiguous next week, isn't it.

John Duthie - N.Melb

Phil Evans - Geel

Daryl Cumming - Rich

Laurie Moloney - Ess

Garry Foulds - Ess

Samson Ryan - Rich
so, as you know, first match, 2021 Round 15, no kicks;
second match, 2023 Round 2, so, you're saying we should give him 3 asterisks, we'll do that; (slight amendment to what's in the Guide now); the stats say 4 kicks, 3 goals; so one more kick (no goal) after the first 3 being goals

Frank Davis - Melb; and Col Deane - Melb
- already in the current Guide

McMillan/MacMillan - seems inconclusive, more than 1 goal (which he's in as now - the 1). (From memory, I think the family at one stage told us, he went by both McMillan and MacMillan.)

Chris Stone - St K
already with 2 asterisks in the Guide.
(You would have noted, Rhett, he died later in '23, on 24 - 11 - 23.)


NOT APPROVED
Roy Files - N.Melb
Bill Morrow - Melb
Bill Smeaton - Melb (was a practice match)


Can someone wash all this info against the WIKI page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VFL/AFL_players_to_have_scored_a_goal_with_their_first_kick to make sure it has this info please

But also some new additions:

Harry Hickey

Goal From First Senior Kick - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 26 Jul 1937

HICKEY, a Footscray Seconds player, who made his debut in League football when he replaced Merrison on Saturday, scored a ...

trove.nla.gov.au

ST. KILDA REMAIN IN

trove.nla.gov.au

Roy Files (third game)

What Globe-experts saw. - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 21 Jul 1954

CARLTON for wards’ the song might well be “The legion of ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Bill Morrow (second game)

FITZROY FORWARDS BEWILDER SOUTH - No counter to midgets - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 9 May 1953

trove.nla.gov.au

And an update - the Wikipedia page has Bill Smeaton scoring a goal with his first kick - Turns out he got three from three.

Bright Play At St. Kilda - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 7 Apr 1951

St Kllda's early game today produced some bright football and several recruits showed improved form. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

And a few more that I've found on AFL Tables:

Mick Mulligan (2 goals, 2 kicks on debut, may be more as he kicked 3 goals from 6 kicks in game two)

AFL Tables - South Melbourne v Fitzroy - Sat, 22-Apr-1967 2:20 PM - Match Stats

 

[rbartlett]

Sr has also approved
"Goal with first kick
Vin Crowe - Rich "

So that can please be added to the First Kick Goal wiki page and any other relevant pages.

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes
"Matthews
we have him as William Henry Matthews. He is W.H.Matthews all the way thru, on the Campbell sheets. As this was a longish career, and he seems to have been a pretty prominent early Saint, is it worth corresponding with Russell on this?"

Rhett: "So no change atm but something to keep an eye on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Matthews_(footballer) "

This thread has been awfully quiet lately!

I’m pretty sure that Bill Matthews (early St Kilda player) has been misidentified.

His permit to St Kilda in 1896 was from Northern Tasmania - see ALONG THE WINGS. - PARS ABOUT PLAYERS AND GOSSIPY GLEANINGS. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 1 May 1896

And searching on Trove shows he played for Launceston in 1895 and had played for St Kilda & Ballarat previously.

This article in the Prahran Telegraph shows that the “R. Matthews” who also played a few games in 1896 for St Kilda was his brother. Also mentioned here

So the news articles of the day tell us that W. H. “Billy” Matthews played:

1. 1893: Ballarat - see permit
2. 1894: St Kilda
3. 1895: Launceston
4. 1896-1902 St Kilda

Currently the player is identified as William Henry Matthews born in Ararat 18-May-1876. This family moved from Ararat to Fitzroy around 1890 but there are no children with a name beginning with R – it seems unlikely the Ararat born man is the player.

Reading through the Tasmanian newspapers gave the impression the player was of Tasmanian origin – an impression reinforced by the Prahran telegraph article saying that W. Matthews “brings his brother with him” from Tasmania. This match report from 1896 also refers to him as “the little Tasmanian”.

So far, I haven’t been able to find anyone that really matches the data points but I think it most likely the actual player was from Tasmania, born in the early-mid 1870s and has a brother whose name begins with R. Any suggestions?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Vin Crowe - Rich

Any links to Neville Crowe?

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes

(Rhett, you've possibly heard, as we have now - as I'm writing this - of the death of Graham Scott, St K and Melb. Died April 30. Just wanted to mention, most sites have the date-of-birth as 16 - 10 - 46. We amended it, some time ago, to 6 - 10 - 46.)

So that needs to be updated on Wiki thanks

Graham Scott (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes
Next is that date-of-death project Col was doing over summer.
Worrall - we got him
Dean - still no luck
Walsh - crossed out here, but done
(as noted in post below)
Hutchins - still nothing for him
Crawley - yes, he's done
Wilson - done, as noted
Fitt - as we later noted, that was the father, with the same full name.
Player, born 1928, still no death apparently?

Email from Stephen Rodgers I'm passing along listing a few outstanding missing player deaths they are still trying to find.

Mal Worrall (Hawthorn)
with the full name as
Malcolm Murray Worrall
(you might recall, we changed the date-of-birth from 10 - 10 - 25, to now be 10 - 12 - 25.)
The feeling is that he died in Queensland sometime around 2010 to 2012.


- Norm Dean (North Melbourne)
This is such a frustrating one; we shouldn't have this issue!
As you're aware, Norm and Ken Dean were the sons of Fred Dean, that is,
Frederick Thomas Dean, the earlier North Melbourne player.
Norm is Norman Frederick Dean.
Even though North, thru Barry Cheatley of the past players, have contact with Ken,
apparently Ken had a really bad falling-out with his brother, and won't tell us any info about Norm's death!
(We also haven't been able to get the info, when Ken's wife answered the phone.)
Norm's death was in New South Wales or Queensland sometime around 2005, we believe.


- Terry Walsh (North Melbourne)
I've never had a full name for him.
He played in 1947-48, as we can see by the records.
The belief is that he committed suicide, presumably in Victoria or New South Wales, at a still very young age, around 23, in or about 1950?


- Ray Hutchins (Melbourne)
The player of 1950-51, I have the full name as
Raymond Ferris Hutchins (not sure where that's from)

You might recall, Melbourne put this up for him (the screenshot below), in, apparently, February 2021,
but there's still no death for him on the Demonwiki site, it seems.

Frustratingly nothing at all seems to be showing up on Ryerson.

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes

(Rhett, not sure if Col has passed on to you -
we've made a change to Bill Tomlinson,
Geelong 1946
(the family got in touch with Geelong, and it flowed thru to Col)
Instead of
William James,
he is
William (no middle name)

Date-of-birth
5 - 3 - 1923

rather than 5 - 7 - 1927

Everything else,
date-of-death, 17 - 8 - 2000,
height/weight and where recruited from,
is unchanged.
He also had WW2 service which Barb Cullen wasn't aware of. Now included in her next update.)

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes

re Berkley Cox of Carlton. You possibly just heard, like we did, of his death on May 13th. The Carlton guys also told us, whereas just about every reference has his d-o-b as
3 - 5 - 1935,
the family have advised Carlton it should be
3 - 5 - 1934

We're going with that now.)

 

[rbartlett]

Good news. All of SR's feedback is complete.
He has reviewed up to page 133.

I will , separately, create a spreadsheet documenting the page 133 onwards changes.
(Make sure you put a summary for a change you want)

And sometime down the track SR will look at it, but not in the current future.

Btw, I thought it may interest this forum to know that 'Swamp' is re-building the AFLs database from scratch as it was old and couldn't handle any new changes introduced (AFLW etc etc).


So SR and Col are still our go to people for them to decide if a change is accept or not by the AFL.
'Swamp' will be the guy who inputs the data into the database eventually once that database is built. (I dont know if it will be available to public or not etc etc )

Edit: Actually the process is I will be putting the changes into a spreadsheet, and bit by bit (when he asks for them), I will be sending them to Swamp to input. He will liaise with SR should he have queries regarding our research.