Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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One more from 1916 - the last one from me!

Carlton had two Whites playing in 1916 (this is a bit like the Kings from Fitzroy) - both were wing players.

George White is listed as playing in Rounds 1-5
Robert White is listed as playing in Round 8.

In early rounds I have found no match reports with initials but only G. White is listed in the Football Record official player numbers.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17853502
This rd. 1 match report says "White, from Carlton District;"

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18096422
"if anything, a local junior in White had more to say on one wing for Carlton than Morris on the other"
This may be referring to the player from Carlton District. Also, Morris played that year but supposedly not in this game. Morris had been a premiership player for the previous 2 years, it would seem a bit strange if the reporter had him mixed up with someone else.

"The Encyclopedia" has Robert White as from Carlton District, George is ex-Coburg. Could be a mistake in the paper(s), of course. Since The Winner has R. White as a debutant in rd. 5 this seems likely. It also says Jenkin(s) debuted for Fitzroy, I see you've made a note about this in your .pdf file.

Edit: It also lists Stevens as one of 5 debutants for Richmond in the other game. The Football Record has a W. Stevens in the squad, not in the team. Barnes debuted the year before so shouldn't have been mentioned. I see The Age report also says Barnes made his debut.

http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=George+White
"White was born in Carlton, and played 11 games for Carlton after debuting in 1916. He was recruited from Coburg VFA." Since George White was born in Carlton he might still be the local junior referred to by The Sporting Judge, as opposed to Robert, who was recruited from Carlton District.

The rd. 2 Football Record says White (Coburg) had debuted the week before.
 
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17853502


Edit: It also lists Stevens as one of 5 debutants for Richmond in the other game. The Football Record has a W. Stevens in the squad, not in the team. Barnes debuted the year before so shouldn't have been mentioned. I see The Age report also says Barnes made his debut.

The Stevens reference is very interesting, as we had no Stevens play senior football for us around that time.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article119690213
The Richmond Australian of May 13 1916 says " As a number of the old players have enlisted in the Expeditionary Forces, both teams played several new men, Richmond's recruits being Taylor, Barnes, Bayles, Derrick and Stevens"
So, Taylor is Roy Taylor, Bayles is a mispelling of Bayliss (but he had played 1 game in 1914 Rd 17), Derrick is Ted Derrick, Barnes is Bert Barnes (?) (who played 1915 Rd 18) and Stevens is.....
To add confusion, in the team listed further down the page, there is no Stevens listed. (there is a Stewart, but he had already played for 9 games previous year). There is no Stevens in the match description either.

The Argus doesn't list Stevens in any match description
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2110455

The Age says Richmond's new players were 'Shand, Bayliss (from Balmain), Derrick, Barnes'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155080682
(Shand is James Shand in his debut) (Bayliss has played 1 game back in 1914. He had come from Balmain FC 1911-1913), Derrick is Ted, Barnes had played 1 games in Rd 18 the year before) It doesn't mention Roy Taylor, who was playing his debut. Stevens is not mentioned anywhere.

So it's possible that Stevens was considered to be in the team, (hence his reference in Richmond Aust, and Football Record) but on game day did not play. It's possible they forgot that Bayliss had played 1 game almost two years earlier, and the same for Bert (although he had played the end of the previous year). I guess the search will go on to see if Stevens is mentioned anywhere in any match report for the Rd 1 1916 match.
 
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Another possible Fitzroy world War 1 casualty

Alexander Salton is listed as having been an umpire who died ins world war 1 and who played for richmond in 1887.

But there is more more to Salton.

He is listed as having been an ex-player for Fitzroy who died in WW1 in their 1917 AGM

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154791121

Salton is more known as a Richmond player and his wikipedia page does not record his service for fitzroy.

I can confirm Salton did play for Fitzroy, he is in a team photo of theirs that Stephen Rodgers showed me.
Salton went on to be a VFL goal umpire, and umpired the Carlton vs Army game at the end of the 1915 season.
He is the goalumpire on the far right, in the last team photo on this page
http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=1915+vs+Army
He is the only VFL umpire to die in war.
I have his medallion presented to him by the Richmond Football Club for services rendered in 1887
As a side note, it was he who got me into Richmond history.
 

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He played cricket later that year for university. My guess is he was a fill in player and went back to school footy.
Yes, it looks certain that the rd. 8 game was his first (and last). Perhaps he then headed off to war, otherwise it's hard to see why he wasn't picked again, considering he "proved a decided success".
.

Collopy did go on to become a Doctor, so perhaps he wasn't able to balance his studies, and football.
 
I can confirm Salton did play for Fitzroy, he is in a team photo of theirs that Stephen Rodgers showed me.
Salton went on to be a VFL goal umpire, and umpired the Carlton vs Army game at the end of the 1915 season.
He is the goalumpire on the far right, in the last team photo on this page
http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=1915+vs+Army
He is the only VFL umpire to die in war.
I have his medallion presented to him by the Richmond Football Club for services rendered in 1887
As a side note, it was he who got me into Richmond history.
I still find it odd that we don't have a determinative list of vfa players who also got killed in ww 1. There would be some crossover between the vfa and the vfl but I reckon a few have slipped through or played like Salton, before the VFL was created who from the AGM was seen as a Fitzroy player from the view of being a war casualty.
 
I still find it odd that we don't have a determinative list of vfa players who also got killed in ww 1. There would be some crossover between the vfa and the vfl but I reckon a few have slipped through or played like Salton, before the VFL was created who from the AGM was seen as a Fitzroy player from the view of being a war casualty.

Correct. The AFL / and that new book Harder Than Football, exhaustively lists VFL players only.
For your reference, I've documented known Richmond VFA, VFL, Seniors, Reserves, Under 19s, Officials war people here
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=War
 
Correct. The AFL / and that new book Harder Than Football, exhaustively lists VFL players only.
For your reference, I've documented known Richmond VFA, VFL, Seniors, Reserves, Under 19s, Officials war people here
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=War
Can we do it here under a separate thread.

We should be able to get half easily because of the crossover between thevfl/vfa players.
 
Just to advise that Stephen Rodgers has sent me an email summarising the potential Richmond 1916 changes that were first raised here in this thread, for me to cross check with our records.
 
I'm starting to do random checks of the afl game record site and individual players and games for 1917 to 1918, an audit of sorts.
 
I'm starting to do random checks of the afl game record site and individual players and games for 1917 to 1918, an audit of sorts.

Well it is very possible there are more changes to be found.
I found a 1908 Pannam game number change around 10 years ago.
The inclusion of digitised newspapers have been immeasureable
We will all keep looking and see what we can find.
 
Well it is very possible there are more changes to be found.
I found a 1908 Pannam game number change around 10 years ago.
The inclusion of digitised newspapers have been immeasureable
We will all keep looking and see what we can find.
I'm focussing on the players who played under 5 games because they are likely to be the world war 1 fill in players.
 
The Stevens reference is very interesting, as we had no Stevens play senior football for us around that time.
I've no idea whether it's even the same W. Stevens, but a player of that name received a permit to move from Kooweerup to Richmond (a few years later) in 1921. (Football Record 1921 Rd. 9 - p. 29) Perhaps he decided to have another crack at it, looks like he never managed a senior game anyway.

W. Stevens is named in the Football Record as being in Richmond's "squad" in rounds 1, 5, 6 and 7 in 1916.
 

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The Stevens reference is very interesting, as we had no Stevens play senior football for us around that time.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article119690213
The Richmond Australian of May 13 1916 says " As a number of the old players have enlisted in the Expeditionary Forces, both teams played several new men, Richmond's recruits being Taylor, Barnes, Bayles, Derrick and Stevens"
So, Taylor is Roy Taylor, Bayles is a mispelling of Bayliss (but he had played 1 game in 1914 Rd 17), Derrick is Ted Derrick, Barnes is Bert Barnes (?) (who played 1915 Rd 18) and Stevens is.....
To add confusion, in the team listed further down the page, there is no Stevens listed. (there is a Stewart, but he had already played for 9 games previous year). There is no Stevens in the match description either.

The Argus doesn't list Stevens in any match description
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2110455

The Age says Richmond's new players were 'Shand, Bayliss (from Balmain), Derrick, Barnes'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155080682
(Shand is James Shand in his debut) (Bayliss has played 1 game back in 1914. He had come from Balmain FC 1911-1913), Derrick is Ted, Barnes had played 1 games in Rd 18 the year before) It doesn't mention Roy Taylor, who was playing his debut. Stevens is not mentioned anywhere.

So it's possible that Stevens was considered to be in the team, (hence his reference in Richmond Aust, and Football Record) but on game day did not play. It's possible they forgot that Bayliss had played 1 game almost two years earlier, and the same for Bert (although he had played the end of the previous year). I guess the search will go on to see if Stevens is mentioned anywhere in any match report for the Rd 1 1916 match.
Probably been mentioned before but the Winner of 10 May 1916 says clearly:

"New men in the Collingwood richmond Game............ Richmond: Barnes, Bayles, Derrick, stevens and Taylor

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154554373

Given the difference in the name Bayles, Bayliss, it appears they did not get the name from the same team sheet. Also the report from the Winner has Brown from Collingwood as coming from Balmain.
 
Probably been mentioned before but the Winner of 10 May 1916 says clearly:

"New men in the Collingwood richmond Game............ Richmond: Barnes, Bayles, Derrick, stevens and Taylor

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154554373

Given the difference in the name Bayles, Bayliss, it appears they did not get the name from the same team sheet. Also the report from the Winner has Brown from Collingwood as coming from Balmain.

Here's a reference, 2 months later to a Stevens playing for Footscray Juniors: 'a wingman from Richmond Juniors, will be tried out to-day'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89112042

So one theory could be is he was a junior in the local Richmond district competition, who got on the 'Seniors' list, but never got a Senior game, and end up trying out with Footscray.

(fyi royals1922 - I couldn't see where Stevens was mentioned in the Winner. I see him mentioned in The Richmond Australian, but not the Winner. Which paragraph?)
 
Here's a reference, 2 months later to a Stevens playing for Footscray Juniors: 'a wingman from Richmond Juniors, will be tried out to-day'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89112042

So one theory could be is he was a junior in the local Richmond district competition, who got on the 'Seniors' list, but never got a Senior game, and end up trying out with Footscray.

(fyi royals1922 - I couldn't see where Stevens was mentioned in the Winner. I see him mentioned in The Richmond Australian, but not the Winner. Which paragraph?)
It was late when I posted it but it is in the Winners article in the general comments section which just followed that article .
 
It was late when I posted it but it is in the Winners article in the general comments section which just followed that article .

Yep, got it. Thanks.
So Stevens is mentioned in The Richmond Australian, and The Winner.
If anyone comes across an actual match report with his name, that will be very interesting.

Reading through Richmond Aust, Winners, Argus, Age match reports - the following players are all mentioned during description of the play, or as best playeys.
Thomas, Bettles, Barnes, Moffat, Harvey (Harley), James, Hede, Alessio, Taylor, Herbert, Maybury, Thorpe, Cronk.

So, I'm still trying to locate the following names in a match description/ or best players of Rd 1 1916 Richmond vs Collingwood:
Bayliss( Bayles), Burke, Derrick, Shand, Stewart.
If we find references to them, then the current side the AFL has documented is correct.
However, if we find Stevens played this game, then that changes alot of things.

If anyone stumbles across anymore info, just post them here
 
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Yep, got it. Thanks.
So Stevens is mentioned in The Richmond Australian, and The Winner.
If anyone comes across an actual match report with his name, that will be very interesting.

Reading through Richmond Aust, Winners, Argus, Age match reports - the following players are all mentioned during description of the play, or as best playeys.
Thomas, Bettles, Barnes, Moffat, Harvey (Harley), James, Hede, Alessio, Taylor, Herbert, Maybury, Thorpe, Cronk.

So, I'm still trying to locate the following names in a match description/ or best players of Rd 1 1916 Richmond vs Collingwood:
Bayliss( Bayles), Burke, Derrick, Shand, Stewart.
If we find references to them, then the current side the AFL has documented is correct.
However, if we find Stevens played this game, then that changes alot of things.

If anyone stumbles across anymore info, just post them here

Stewart is mentioned as playing well in the report in the Rd 2 Football Record
Also mentions "Sharp" as a good defender, who could be Vic Thorpe (as this was the name he played under in the Grand Final) or Shand?
 
Stewart is mentioned as playing well in the report in the Rd 2 Football Record
Also mentions "Sharp" as a good defender, who could be Vic Thorpe (as this was the name he played under in the Grand Final) or Shand?
I was about to post pretty much the same thing! They must have meant Thorp(e) instead of Shand (or Sharp, of course), as this was the debut game for Shand, yet it says Sharp "quite up to his old standard".
 
Yep, got it. Thanks.
So Stevens is mentioned in The Richmond Australian, and The Winner.
If anyone comes across an actual match report with his name, that will be very interesting.

Reading through Richmond Aust, Winners, Argus, Age match reports - the following players are all mentioned during description of the play, or as best playeys.
Thomas, Bettles, Barnes, Moffat, Harvey (Harley), James, Hede, Alessio, Taylor, Herbert, Maybury, Thorpe, Cronk.

So, I'm still trying to locate the following names in a match description/ or best players of Rd 1 1916 Richmond vs Collingwood:
Bayliss( Bayles), Burke, Derrick, Shand, Stewart.
If we find references to them, then the current side the AFL has documented is correct.
However, if we find Stevens played this game, then that changes alot of things.

If anyone stumbles across anymore info, just post them here

The Herald match report names Stevens as a new player and then doesn't include him in the line up... not helping resolve this!
Same inclusions as mentioned in The Winner.
Rd1 1916 RichvColl.JPG
 
Possible player change found in 1900 !

Move viewing window to left of this article in The Herald
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=E-U7AAAAIBAJ&sjid=OCsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3057,22183660
to see the teams listed for Carlton v St Kilda 24 May 1900 (Rnd 4)

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/031519000524.html
The Herald list on match day shows Monohan, AFL Tables site has Warry [and he's not in Herald list]

The match report published next day in The Argus mentions Minahan as playing well, but no ref to Warry
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9542209
 
Possible player change found in 1900 !

Move viewing window to left of this article in The Herald
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=E-U7AAAAIBAJ&sjid=OCsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3057,22183660
to see the teams listed for Carlton v St Kilda 24 May 1900 (Rnd 4)

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/031519000524.html
The Herald list on match day shows Monohan, AFL Tables site has Warry [and he's not in Herald list]

The match report published next day in The Argus mentions Minahan as playing well, but no ref to Warry
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9542209
According to "The Encyclopedia", Michael O'Gorman played under the name Mick Minahan. He played for South Melbourne and St Kilda, and was also a VFL goal umpire. http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/M/Michael_OGorman.html

Note the reference in The Argus report to Clough's age:- "Clough, who is only 17 years of age"

This was just his second game, and of course it came to light recently that he was only 15 at the time, and he's now recognised as the youngest ever debutant.

Minahan is mentioned in The Australasian, Warry again isn't:-
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11411796

No mention in The Age of Minahan or Warry.
 
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11411852
For the rd. 5 Collingwood vs St Kilda game, The Australasian says St Kilda excluded Minahan (among many others), yet O'Gorman (Minahan) is named in the "official lineup".

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9542543
The Argus also said Minahan (O'Gorman) was left out of the rd. 5 game, so it looks like this another error.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/041519000526.html

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=19000526&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
No mention in The (Port Phillip) Herald for Minahan (O'Gorman), strangely Warry is named in the team. He's not in the official lineup.
 
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I was about to post pretty much the same thing! They must have meant Thorp(e) instead of Shand (or Sharp, of course), as this was the debut game for Shand, yet it says Sharp "quite up to his old standard".

Stephen Rodgers confirms for me quite a while ago they determined Sharp to be 'Thorp'
He was certainly listed as Thorp in all press reports for Rd 1 and even the Semi Final
Why was he listed as Sharp in the Footy Record? Not sure. Typo ? Mix up ?
Oh well. Sharp certainly doesn't appear in any match descriptions of Rd 1 1916
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records


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