Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[the croucher]

Some sites list Carltons' 1958-65 player as Berkley Cox, others as Berkeley Cox.
Wiki acknowledges it is spelt differently sometime.
So I wonder what we should be using. I guess whatever would be on the birth certificate?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkley_Cox

Hi Rhett. I'm certain it should be Berkley.

From the earliest refs on Trove when he is a teenager in Tas showing promise of the career he was to have with City (later City-South), through to electoral rolls on Ancestry (both when living in Victoria or back in Tasmania in the 1960s & 1970s), his name is always shown as Berkley.

 

[rbartlett]

Hi Rhett. I'm certain it should be Berkley.

From the earliest refs on Trove when he is a teenager in Tas showing promise of the career he was to have with City (later City-South), through to electoral rolls on Ancestry (both when living in Victoria or back in Tasmania in the 1960s & 1970s), his name is always shown as Berkley.

Thanks. I've removed the Berkeley reference on his wiki page. Everything else is fine. Not needed to put on spreadsheet.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

"Ben" Sandford (St Kilda, 1901-1903) was one of three brothers who played for St Kilda at the turn of last century (brothers Cecil and George)

He was born Albert Edward Sandford in Lara in 1877 but apparently went by the name Ben (both Trove and NZ Papers Past give some hits for this name).

He moved to NZ in 1903 after retiring from VFL football due to ill-health - all NZ records seem to use name Albert Edgar Sandford
Current records have a date of death of 6 Jan 1965 (which corresponds to an Albert Benjamin Sandford dying in Renmark, South Australia)

His actual death was in Hamilton, New Zealand on 26 Jun 1942 - see New Zealand Herald obit.

Plus he enlisted to serve in New Zealand towards the end of WWI (not currently on any war lists as far as I know)

Will add to spreadsheet....

 

[Oliver G]

Over the past few weeks I have gone through the spreadsheet and updated AF where applicable. I believe I have fixed up all the AFL accepted serials, but if i've missed any please let me know. If needed the spreadsheet can be updated to show that AF has updated these serials.

Serial 4 - Removed McNamara from the game.

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/1387

Serial 33 - Replaced McMillan with Dall (If AFL reject changes we’ll revert it ASAP).

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/1098

Serial 34 - Jumper number changes made (gone the same way as AFLTables)

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/6765

Serial 55 - Replaced Sandford with Barling (If AFL reject changes we’ll revert it ASAP).

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/108

Serial 61/62 - Gardiner Medal list updated.

https://australianfootball.com/lists/awards/Gardiner+Medal/34

Serial 65 - Arthur Gilligan updated.

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/arthur+gilligan/1651

Serial 72 - DOD changed.

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Dick Hall/907

Serial 73 - Replaced Wright with Hastings.

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/313

Serial 78 - Updated DOD for George Morgan

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/george+morgan/1239

Serial 79 - Updated Middleton

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/arthur+middleton/1100

Serial 80 - Time has been updated

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/4304

Serial 86 - DOB/DOD updated.

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Jimmy Gaynor/1845

Serial 93 - Added Arthur Davidson for R7/10 1898 and removed Alex Davidson…

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Arthur Davidson/20447

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Alex Davidson/984

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/123

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/66

Serial 94 - Fred Lester DOD updated

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/fred+lester/4831

Serials 96/97 - Replaced Mick Hughson with Les Hughson (If AFL reject changes we’ll revert it ASAP)

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/3493

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/3505

Serial 99 - Changed John Allen’s DOB/D

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/John Allan/1627

Serial 102 - Our records show 45 H&A goals

Serials 103/104 - Times changed

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/4338

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/4304

Serial 108 - 1974 Senior Times updated

Serial 109 - 1938 R7-14 Senior times updated

Serial 116 - Hayes Name/DOB/DOD updated

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Phonse Hayes/4498

Serial 123 - Replaced McCaskill with Empey

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/2155

Serial 124 - Replaced Empey with Don

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/2131

Serial 129 - Bliss updated

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/dick+bliss/2189

Serial 137 - Walter Johnston added

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/walter+johnston/20444

Serial 164 - Brian Buckley DOB updated

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/brian+buckley/8649

Serial 165 - Reg Hall DOD updated

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/reg+hall/8341

Serial 168 - Ted Kennedy DOD updated

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/ted+kennedy/1523

Serial 174 - R5 Goal changes

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/9086

Serial 180 - Updated Richmond crowds.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Bill Hickey played with South Melbourne (1902-05) and Carlton (1907)
He is currently identified with DOB 14 June 1881 & DOD 3 January 1966 but these dates appear to be incorrect.

W. T. Hickey was a prominent athlete in Wangaratta from 1898 onwards e.g. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9622595
When he started playing for South Melb, Hickey was identified as coming from Wangaratta http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9060967; http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165174923
When he played for Carlton, he was identified as ex-SM player http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242571150; http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139761573
William Thomas Hickey married Isobella Johnston in 1924 (Vic BDM 1925/4697)
Daughter of Bill and Isobella - Billie - died aged 16 in 1941 as a result of an accident – article http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205301013; death notice http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205300768; Article identifying Billie’s father (Bill) as the old SM footballer http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164980647

1945: W. T. Hickey wins tenth Wangaratta Bowls Club championship – again identified as old SM footballer http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165035415

He was William Thomas Hickey
Parents: John Hickey and Sarah Oates
Born 1880 in Allan’s Flat (Vic BDM 1880/5968)
Died 15 Mar 1969 in Wangaratta (Vic BDM 1969/5642)

 

[rbartlett]

Struggling to find any 1948 League Thirds score results.
A look on Trove only has very sporadic results, and I can't see The Footy Record showing them.
Anyone seen anything in their travels ?
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1948+Under+19s

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

“Jim” McFarlane played one game for Carlton in Rd 2 1902 – note: Blueseum has him as John McFarlane. McFarlane has DOB 15 Sep 1876 and DOD 21 May 1955 in current sources

1. He did play one game
McFarlane is in the Carlton squad listed the day before the game
The Herald & Record reports of the SM v Carlton game list him in the Carlton team
Still in Carlton squad the next week and the week after

2. It seems as if records from two people are confused in the current record

John Robert McFarlane
There is a probate record for John Robert McFarlane with date of death 21 May 1955
He died in Buckrabanyule and was a farmer. Backrabanyule is a small town 18km east of Charlton (which is 245km NW of Melbourne)
Listed in electoral rolls at Buckrabanyule/Charlton all of his life.
Parents were John McFarlane (1846-1931) and Rose Ann Carroll (1846-1920)
Matching birth record for John Robert McFarlane - born in Korong Vale (also near Charlton) in 1875
note: Blueseum incorrectly states he was born in Koroit (Vic BDM uses abbreviation KORO)

If this is the player then current DOB for the player is incorrect.

James Robert McFarlane
The birth date corresponds to James Robert McFarlane listed in Vic police service records (joined 3 Feb 1903) stationed in Russell St (1903), St Kilda Rd (1904) and then Fitzroy 1905-1923
He appears in electoral rolls in Fitzroy from 1906 to 1923
He was called as a witness in the Victorian Police Royal Commission in 1906 (see p144-145)
1907 – “Bob” McFarlane appears for Police team in Wednesday league
1918 - Letter from J. R. McFarlane to the Weekly Times in 1918 commending their Stawell gift coverage - also uses the name “Bob”
1921 - Article about police in sport is about the same man and includes a photo – talks in some detail about his running career but does not mention him playing football

“Good individual performances among the athletic policemen of Melbourne are numerous. First in this regard is Plainclothes-constable J. R. M'Farlane, of Fitzroy, the middle-distance professional runner, who has been competing on the tracks In Victoria since 1897, and at the age of 44 years is still in the sport.”​

29 March 1923 - Resigned from police force
I cannot find anything to trace him beyond 1923 (he was in his late 40s at this stage)

Early sprinting refs show James Robert McFarlane also came from Backrabanyule
In 1898, J. R. McFarlane from Backrabanyule is reported as having won a professional hurdle race http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89455496
In 1902 J. R. McFarlane from Backrabanyule was fined 5/ by the Victorian Athletic League http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197257929

The 1921 article also mentions he served in the Boer War and for a time was a prisoner of the Boers.
This AWM record seems to be him: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/R1433823/
The Oz-Boer Database Project has a listing for him: http://members.pcug.org.au/~croe/ozb/oz_boer_more.cgi?record=13798
…and links him to articles
Departing from Charlton in Feb 1900 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89475933
Portrait photo from Bushman contingent http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198529700 (he is #157 on p35)
Photo in camp http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139775365
Returning in Aug 1901 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10564919

If James is the player then current DOD for the player is almost certainly incorrect.

Question
Who was the player and what are the correct DOB / DOD?

My view is John and James are likely to be brothers – there is only one McFarlane family at Backrabanyule. Given they are both in electoral rolls in different locations from 1903 to 1923 they must be different people,
I think the “constabulary Carbine” James Robert McFarlane is most likely to be the player and I suspect his death was significantly earlier than 1955

 

[rbartlett]

“Jim” McFarlane played one game for Carlton in Rd 2 1902 – note: Blueseum has him as John McFarlane. McFarlane has DOB 15 Sep 1876 and DOD 21 May 1955 in current sources

Question
Who was the player and what are the correct DOB / DOD?

My view is John and James are likely to be brothers – there is only one McFarlane family at Backrabanyule. Given they are both in electoral rolls in different locations from 1903 to 1923 they must be different people,
I think the “constabulary Carbine” James Robert McFarlane is most likely to be the player and I suspect his death was significantly earlier than 1955

Well James Robert seems to have a more sporting background than the first suggestion.
We don't have a DOB or DOD for James Robert yet, right?
It could be possible when SRodgers was trying to fill in all the names back in the heyday he could only find that current Jim McFarlane DOB details and gathered that to be the player.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Well James Robert seems to have a more sporting background than the first suggestion.
We don't have a DOB or DOD for James Robert yet, right?
It could be possible when SRodgers was trying to fill in all the names back in the heyday he could only find that current Jim McFarlane DOB details and gathered that to be the player.

James Robert has DOB 15 Sep 1876 on his police service record but I haven't found anything in Vic BDM

 

[35Daicos]

“Jim” McFarlane played one game for Carlton in Rd 2 1902 – note: Blueseum has him as John McFarlane. McFarlane has DOB 15 Sep 1876 and DOD 21 May 1955 in current sources

1. He did play one game
McFarlane is in the Carlton squad listed the day before the game
The Herald & Record reports of the SM v Carlton game list him in the Carlton team
Still in Carlton squad the next week and the week after

2. It seems as if records from two people are confused in the current record

John Robert McFarlane
There is a probate record for John Robert McFarlane with date of death 21 May 1955
He died in Buckrabanyule and was a farmer. Backrabanyule is a small town 18km east of Charlton (which is 245km NW of Melbourne)
Listed in electoral rolls at Buckrabanyule/Charlton all of his life.
Parents were John McFarlane (1846-1931) and Rose Ann Carroll (1846-1920)
Matching birth record for John Robert McFarlane - born in Korong Vale (also near Charlton) in 1875
note: Blueseum incorrectly states he was born in Koroit (Vic BDM uses abbreviation KORO)

If this is the player then current DOB for the player is incorrect.

James Robert McFarlane
The birth date corresponds to James Robert McFarlane listed in Vic police service records (joined 3 Feb 1903) stationed in Russell St (1903), St Kilda Rd (1904) and then Fitzroy 1905-1923
He appears in electoral rolls in Fitzroy from 1906 to 1923
He was called as a witness in the Victorian Police Royal Commission in 1906 (see p144-145)
1907 – “Bob” McFarlane appears for Police team in Wednesday league
1918 - Letter from J. R. McFarlane to the Weekly Times in 1918 commending their Stawell gift coverage - also uses the name “Bob”
1921 - Article about police in sport is about the same man and includes a photo – talks in some detail about his running career but does not mention him playing football

“Good individual performances among the athletic policemen of Melbourne are numerous. First in this regard is Plainclothes-constable J. R. M'Farlane, of Fitzroy, the middle-distance professional runner, who has been competing on the tracks In Victoria since 1897, and at the age of 44 years is still in the sport.”​

29 March 1923 - Resigned from police force
I cannot find anything to trace him beyond 1923 (he was in his late 40s at this stage)

Early sprinting refs show James Robert McFarlane also came from Backrabanyule
In 1898, J. R. McFarlane from Backrabanyule is reported as having won a professional hurdle race http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89455496
In 1902 J. R. McFarlane from Backrabanyule was fined 5/ by the Victorian Athletic League http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197257929

The 1921 article also mentions he served in the Boer War and for a time was a prisoner of the Boers.
This AWM record seems to be him: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/R1433823/
The Oz-Boer Database Project has a listing for him: http://members.pcug.org.au/~croe/ozb/oz_boer_more.cgi?record=13798
…and links him to articles
Departing from Charlton in Feb 1900 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89475933
Portrait photo from Bushman contingent http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198529700 (he is #157 on p35)
Photo in camp http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139775365
Returning in Aug 1901 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10564919

If James is the player then current DOD for the player is almost certainly incorrect.

Question
Who was the player and what are the correct DOB / DOD?

My view is John and James are likely to be brothers – there is only one McFarlane family at Backrabanyule. Given they are both in electoral rolls in different locations from 1903 to 1923 they must be different people,
I think the “constabulary Carbine” James Robert McFarlane is most likely to be the player and I suspect his death was significantly earlier than 1955

'The Encyclopedia' calls the player Jim R. McFarlane. A James Robert McFarlane gets a mention in a Darwin newspaper in 1925.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

'The Encyclopedia' calls the player Jim R. McFarlane. A James Robert McFarlane gets a mention in a Darwin newspaper in 1925.

There is also a James Robert McFarlane in 1926 electoral roll in St Arnaud with occupation hotelkeeper that could be him (but also may not be...)

 

[the croucher]

James Robert has DOB 15 Sep 1876 on his police service record but I haven't found anything in Vic BDM

This snippet from 1917 adds another reference to one you found which indicates that he was known as "Bob" rather than "Jim"
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65673941

 

[the croucher]

There is also a James Robert McFarlane in 1926 electoral roll in St Arnaud with occupation hotelkeeper that could be him (but also may not be...)

Yes, he is there in 1925 as well, but is not listed in the 1924 or the 1927 electoral roll in St Arnaud.

And here is a ref in August 1925 to a James R McFarland transferring hotel licence to George Morgan
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2154674

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Another one...
John Stephenson played 10 games for Essendon in 1907 and has DOB 2 Feb 1881 in wiki, australianfootball.com. AFL Tables has DOB 23 Feb 1886.

Wikipedia has him as John B. Stephenson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Stephenson_(footballer)
…which seems to come from the Essendon FC past player profiles (which has DOB 23 Feb 1886) https://web.archive.org/web/20150706141857/http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles---s

This was when he had previously been identified as John Bruce Stephenson (born 23 Feb 1886 in Balmain, NSW) – but this person died in 1894 so the 1886 birth and the middle initial “B” are not relevant to the player.

He is listed as having come to Essendon from Balmain in NSW (as per permit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198612034) however this is contradicted by 1907 newspaper articles which show him getting a moving from Footscray to Essendon after having played in Rd 1 of the 1907 VFA season for Footscray (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242572516)

He did come to Footscray from NSW at the start of the season though http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198611647

He had only been in NSW for a year, having also played for Footscray in 1904 & 1905 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article73257540 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198607218

He later played for Brunswick (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242095996), Williamstown and Yarraville – see full VFA record at http://www.thevfaproject.org/pages/Players/Stephenson,_Jack__Foot05.php

He also played cricket for Footscray and Yarraville
In 1924 he coached Sunshine http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article74724726

In 1947 he won the Australian Rope Quoits championship http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article74776411 - noted as “an employee with long service at the McKay works” This 1949 article as he prepared to defend his title has a photo of him and gives his age as 66 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article246030325

Death notice for his son George in 1931 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203333261 which gives his full name as John William Stephenson
News report linking cricketer/footballer to his son’s death http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article76426273

Based on all of this… it is apparent that current records are wrong and the footballer was

John William Stephenson
Born 1883 Winchelsea, Victoria, Australia (Vic BDM 1883/6252)
Died 1963 Williamstown, Victoria, Australia (Vic BDM 1963/6452)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

A player called Kruse played a single game for Fitzroy in 1902 - see Herald line up

Wikpedia has him as William "Bill" Kruse
AFL Tables has this as George Kruse
Encyclopedia has him as George T Kruse
australianfootball.com has him as Bill Kruse with full name George Kruse (!!?)

The currently listed dates of birth/death are for George Thomas Kruse (born in Pleasant Creek, near Stawell)

William and George Kruse were brothers who both played for Footscray
"Kruse" also played for Footscray that day - Footscray reports from 1902 only seem to reference W. Kruse so I believe this would be William Kruse

As far as I can tell records should be updated to call him George Kruse and all references to William/Bill should be removed (unless somehow another previously unknown Kruse played football or potentially the name in the Herald is a mis-print?)

 

[35Daicos]

Fred Leach isn't named in the Collingwood side for the 1903 Rd. 2 game against South Melbourne, but it seems almost certain that he played, with Billy Spears most likely the player who should drop out of the official lineup. The Herald names F. Leach in the team, with Spears not there:

The Herald on the Friday said "Allan, Incoll, G. Lockwood, Rush, and Spears will be out of the 'Woodsmen's team to-morrow, and Angus, Carmody, Green, F. Leach and M'Cormack in." The Australasian names the same five players as coming into the team, with F. Leach also among the best players.

Record says "Fred. Leach was the best man on the ground, his play being that of a champion." The Leader named F. Leach as one of Collingwood's best. I see no mention anywhere of Spears having played. He's not named in the Rd. 3 team, while Leach is.

Since Spears is credited with having scored a goal a change would need to be made. The Herald gives Angus a goal so perhaps he might gain that one?

 

[Supermercado]

Does the Encyclopedia of AFL Players still show Peter Hannan (1927) recruited to Melbourne from Yarraville like it did a few years ago? This was incorrect as multiple sources have him from South Yarra. He went to Yarraville between playing for Melbourne and Footscray.

 

[35Daicos]

Does the Encyclopedia of AFL Players still show Peter Hannan (1927) recruited to Melbourne from Yarraville like it did a few years ago? This was incorrect as multiple sources have him from South Yarra. He went to Yarraville between playing for Melbourne and Footscray.

The entry in the 2018 edition is exactly as it was in the 2014 edition. It simply says "Ex-Yarraville."

Edit: I see you don't have a photo of him on your website. He's in a Yarraville 1929 team photo (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224404097) if that's of any use to you. A different one from 1929 here: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/141397516

 

[Supermercado]

The entry in the 2018 edition is exactly as it was in the 2014 edition. It simply says "Ex-Yarraville."

Edit: I see you don't have a photo of him on your website. He's in a Yarraville 1929 team photo (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224404097) if that's of any use to you. A different one from 1929 here: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/141397516

Thanks for checking. It's certainly true for one half of his VFL career. And thanks for the photo too - I don't like player shots from other teams where you can see the wrong jumper but these will cut out nicely.

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks for checking. It's certainly true for one half of his VFL career. And thanks for the photo too - I don't like player shots from other teams where you can see the wrong jumper but these will cut out nicely.

He actually went back to Prahran (from Yarraville) in mid-1932, and it was from there that he joined Footscray in 1933. So it seems he had three stints at Prahran.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4460339
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203823754

 

[Supermercado]

He actually went back to Prahran (from Yarraville) in mid-1932, and it was from there that he joined Footscray in 1933. So it seems he had three stints at Prahran.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4460339
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203823754

I like how he gets a clearance from Yarraville to Prahran on residential grounds, then goes to Footscray the next season.

 

[35Daicos]

I like how he gets a clearance from Yarraville to Prahran on residential grounds, then goes to Footscray the next season.

Yes, that was an odd one!

The poor bugger was only 29 when he died (in 1938). Do you have any idea what killed him? The death notices/in memoriam tributes don't give anything away.

 

[Supermercado]

Yes, that was an odd one!

The poor bugger was only 29 when he died (in 1938). Do you have any idea what killed him? The death notices/in memoriam tributes don't give anything away.

Hadn't even put the DOB/DOD together and realised that. Never heard of any reason. One I'm interested in (and may have posted on here before) is Harold De Gruchy, a 20 year old (though funeral notices say he was 19) who played his first game on 29/06/1901 and died on 13/08/1901. Must be amongst the shortest gaps between playing a VFL game and passing away.

 

[35Daicos]

Hadn't even put the DOB/DOD together and realised that. Never heard of any reason. One I'm interested in (and may have posted on here before) is Harold De Gruchy, a 20 year old (though funeral notices say he was 19) who played his first game on 29/06/1901 and died on 13/08/1901. Must be amongst the shortest gaps between playing a VFL game and passing away.

Interesting one, for sure. Vic BDM also had him as 19 when his death was registered, so perhaps the DOB the (football) records have is not correct?:
Event Death
Event registration number 9752
Registration year 1901

Personal information
Family name DE GRUCHY
Given names Harold Brinsley Sheridan
Sex Unknown
Father's name De Gruchy Thos
Mother's name Cath (Casey)
Place of birth
Place of death Glong Hos
Age 19

His birth was registered in 1881, however:
Event Birth
Event registration number 4263
Registration year 1881

Personal information
Family name DEGRUCHY
Given names Harold Brinsley Sheridan
Sex Unknown
Father's name Thomas
Mother's name Catherine (Casey)
Place of birth MELB

I can't find anything that sheds any light on this story.

Edit: Could one of you folks who can change things in Wikipedia please fix this bit up on Harold De Gruchy's page: "He died on 18 August 1901.[4]" It should say 13 August, and in fact says that in two other places on that page.

^ Fixed already!! Thanks to the kind person who did that!

 

[RedmanWasHere]

That's one hell of a name (De Gruchy.)

As for the shortest span between career and death, Les Witto surely has it in the bag.

I think he sustained a break in his arm and it went downhill and died a few days later.