Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[Procrastinator35]

Fitzroy were the Gorillas at one stage:
View attachment 822881

I agree about the cockie. I've no idea what it's doing there!

Perhaps the picture is only partial & there's more caricatures on the other side, with a bomber in the air to balance out the Swan & saint? .....Just a thought!

Mexicans usually hail from over the border, so I'm guessing he's a reference to New South Wales wishing to put a knife through our code & deflate our game?

 

[rbartlett]

Perhaps the picture is only partial & there's more caricatures on the other side, with a bomber in the air to balance out the Swan & saint? .....Just a thought!

Mexicans usually hail from over the border, so I'm guessing he's a reference to New South Wales wishing to put a knife through our code & deflate our game?

The Cockie is Carlton btw. https://www.blueseum.org/1930's
Not all teams are covered in the illustration - there doesnt appear to be any overlap onto another page.
So its just the Mexican with the knife they arent sure of (there's a phrase I never expect to type)

 

[GreyCrow]

There's a query floating around that has stumped the AFL Historians.
In 1938 this illustration was published, and the query is , who is the person in the bottom left-hand corner with the dagger / or what club are they representing.
The article was published here: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11159255

9 teams + the Mexican

I suggest its the anti-VFL league ie throwing a knife to deflate football

 

[RedmanWasHere]

J wonder if the "fork" is actually a trident and, hence, Melbourne's part in the cartoon.

 

[Procrastinator35]

The Cockie is Carlton btw. https://www.blueseum.org/1930's
Not all teams are covered in the illustration - there doesnt appear to be any overlap onto another page.
So its just the Mexican with the knife they arent sure of (there's a phrase I never expect to type)

I guess you'd have to ask the question over why the omission of those 3 sides then?.....Surely you'd want it to be comprehensive, so as to include all followers of the code & so not disenfranchise them as a result?....Any politics regarding those 3 sides in particular at that time?...Perhaps the cartoonist had an aversion to them, or felt unable to depict their logos?....Those sides finished 8th, 10th & 12th in the 1937 Season prior; So maybe they weren't seen as realistic enough flag threats?

Was it the Bombers & Kangaroos back then?....If so, I can't really reflect upon why they'd be omitted, being such iconic caricatures…..The Maybloom you can understand, particularly given our poor status & following at that time.

Anything especially going on politically in the world at that time with the Mexicans, given it's only 2 years prior to the outbreak of the 2ndWW ?.....If not, I reckon my intuition over it representing NSW is a good guess....Unless South Oz, Tassie & W/A were plotting a new comp?

The last thing I can think of, is perhaps the Mexican is represented by the VFA?...Were they plotting to get Essendon, North & Hawthorn to jump ship their way?

 

[GreyCrow]

J wonder if the "fork" is actually a trident and, hence, Melbourne's part in the cartoon.

Melbourne = Demon with pitchfork
Swan top left, Saints , Gorilla , Tiger , Cockie/Galah, Magpie, Bulldog , Cats

= 9 plus the Bandito

 

[rbartlett]

35Daicos contacted me with evidence that pretty much shows that Norm Le Brun, who played for South Melb, Coll, Essendon ,Carlton had also played with Richmond Reserves - and as a result of his death in WW2, should be added to my War death page.
I'm pretty confident 35Daicos is correct, though because its such an important addition (our War death page), I'm just looking for the final piece of jigsaw that connects him all together.

On TigerlandArchive I have a Le Brun playing 1 game in 1925. That is direct from the Annual Report.
No first name given. All I'm needing to finalise the confirmation is to identify that Le Brun as Norm Le Brun.

His wiki says he was born in Richmond, and played Richmond Seconds (though not sure where that confirmation is).
The Encycl says he was cleared from Richmond to South in 1929 (which is pretty good evidence that the 1925 Le Brun is likely him).
But if we can find what he did before 1926-1929 that might fill in the gap. It doesn't look like he played for Richmond Seconds in those *missing years*.
The fact he has to get a clearance in 1929 to go to Sth Melb suggests to me he went to a non-League club during those missing years.

35Daicos rightly shows that there was a Le Brun playing Fish Creek in 1928 (is that him?). Blueseum says he played for Richmond Seconds in 1929 but I cant find evidence of that.
When he is set to debut for Sth Melb (after leaving Richmond)he is listed as "the Moorabbin player".

Looking through 1924-1929 Seniors and Reserves Minute Books, I can't see any reference to help me.
So if anyone can fill in the gaps, most welcome to

Norm Le Brun
1925- Richmond Reserves (1 game)
1926 ? (possibly Moorabbin, or Fish Creek)
1927 ? (possibly Moorabbin, or Fish Creek)
1928 ? (possibly Moorabbin, or Fish Creek)
1929 - Sth Melb
1930 - Sandhurst
1931-32 Essendon
1933-34 - Collingwood
1935 - Carlton
1936 - Griffiths
1937 - South Warrnambool

 

[35Daicos]

35Daicos contacted me with evidence that pretty much shows that Norm Le Brun, who played for South Melb, Coll, Essendon ,Carlton had also played with Richmond Reserves - and as a result of his death in WW2, should be added to my War death page.
I'm pretty confident 35Daicos is correct, though because its such an important addition (our War death page), I'm just looking for the final piece of jigsaw that connects him all together.

On TigerlandArchive I have a Le Brun playing 1 game in 1925. That is direct from the Annual Report.
No first name given. All I'm needing to finalise the confirmation is to identify that Le Brun as Norm Le Brun.

His wiki says he was born in Richmond, and played Richmond Seconds (though not sure where that confirmation is).
The Encycl says he was cleared from Richmond to South in 1929 (which is pretty good evidence that the 1925 Le Brun is likely him).
But if we can find what he did before 1926-1929 that might fill in the gap. It doesn't look like he played for Richmond Seconds in those *missing years*.
The fact he has to get a clearance in 1929 to go to Sth Melb suggests to me he went to a non-League club during those missing years.

35Daicos rightly shows that there was a Le Brun playing Fish Creek in 1928 (is that him?). Blueseum says he played for Richmond Seconds in 1929 but I cant find evidence of that.
When he is set to debut for Sth Melb (after leaving Richmond)he is listed as "the Moorabbin player".

Looking through 1924-1929 Seniors and Reserves Minute Books, I can't see any reference to help me.
So if anyone can fill in the gaps, most welcome to

Norm Le Brun
1925- Richmond Reserves (1 game)
1926 ? (possibly Moorabbin, or Fish Creek)
1927 ? (possibly Moorabbin, or Fish Creek)
1928 ? (possibly Moorabbin, or Fish Creek)
1929 - Sth Melb
1930 - Sandhurst
1931-32 Essendon
1933-34 - Collingwood
1935 - Carlton
1936 - Griffiths
1937 - South Warrnambool

A Le Brun played for a Federal Association rep. team in 1927: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205797215

Moorabbin was in that competition in 1927: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205814980
So that was probably Norm.

I think I did send this bit!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164968250 (The Record, 25 May 1929 - he had just made his League debut for South)

It confirms that the 1929 South Melbourne player was with Fish Creek.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244445543 (12 April 1929):


https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/254600818 (10 May 1928 - with Fish Creek):

So 1928 seems to have been his first year at that club.

Blueseum says: https://www.blueseum.org/Norm+Le+Brun

There must be doubt about the Sorrento bit, given that he was registered as being born at Richmond (though it does say that in his Army records). And he pretty certainly wasn't with Richmond in 1929!


I'd say he was with Moorabbin in 1927, Fish Creek 1928, then obviously South Melbourne in 1929. Not sure about 1926, as he did tend to move around a bit! There's still nothing that says for sure that he was at Richmond in 1925. He was born there and it would be extremely likely that he was the one-game Seconds player, but it's still pretty strange that all these sources are so ready to claim that as fact, when you (Richmond) have nothing to say it is so! They're probably just assuming, based on the fact that there wouldn't have been many Le Brun's out there at the time!

I do absolutely suspect that Norman Stanley Le Brun is your 1925 player, but don't blame you for asking "where's the proof"?!! Have you asked Col H. if he has anything definitive on this?

 

[rbartlett]

There is this, but they're not the "full stats": https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...ne-ups-and-goals.1048615/page-3#post-31910622

Thanks.found them as soon as I posted. So I deleted my original post so as not to sp*m. So youre welcome to delete that if need be

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

VFL Permit Book says:

Le Brun, N - Richmond to Sth melbourne granted 8/5/29
Le Brun, N S - South Melb to Sandhurst granted 23/4/30
Le Brun, N S - Sandhurst to Essendon granted 1/5/31

Official VFL Team Lists Book shows:
1934 Le Brun played 17 games, kicked 23 goals for Collingwood
1933 Le Brun played 2 games, kicked 0 goals for Collingwood, came from Essendon

 

[35Daicos]

VFL Permit Book says:

Le Brun, N - Richmond to Sth melbourne granted 8/5/29
Le Brun, N S - South Melb to Sandhurst granted 23/4/30
Le Brun, N S - Sandhurst to Essendon granted 1/5/31

Official VFL Team Lists Book shows:
1934 Le Brun played 17 games, kicked 23 goals for Collingwood
1933 Le Brun played 2 games, kicked 0 goals for Collingwood, came from Essendon

In the Football Record (1929 Rd. 3) they called him N. L. Le Brun, but that was clearly a mistake:


Curiously enough, there was another Norman Le Brun out there at the same time, seemingly the footballer's cousin: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206461433/19729815 (29 Sep 1953)

^ That refers to the death of the father of the footballer: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Norm_Le_Brun


Norm was meant to be unmarried, but his namesake/cousin got married in 1931:

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

VFL Permit Book says:

Le Brun, N - Richmond to Sth melbourne granted 8/5/29
Le Brun, N S - South Melb to Sandhurst granted 23/4/30
Le Brun, N S - Sandhurst to Essendon granted 1/5/31

Official VFL Team Lists Book shows:
1934 Le Brun played 17 games, kicked 23 goals for Collingwood
1933 Le Brun played 2 games, kicked 0 goals for Collingwood, came from Essendon

cannot see any permit to Richmond before that so assume he may have been a local prior to 1929 transfer to SM?

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

In the Football Record (1929 Rd. 3) they called him N. L. Le Brun, but that was clearly a mistake:

The Permit Book entry for 1930 could definitely be mistaken for N.L. Le Brun

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Was it the Bombers & Kangaroos back then?....If so, I can't really reflect upon why they'd be omitted, being such iconic caricatures…..The Maybloom you can understand, particularly given our poor status & following at that time.

Essendon were Same Olds or Dons (Bombers started in WW2), Hawthorn were Mayblooms or Mustard Pots (Hawks began in 1943), North Melb were Shinboners, North or Blue Birds (Kangaroos started in 1950).

 

[rbartlett]

VFL Permit Book says:

Are you quoting from the permit entries that appear in the newspapers, or the actual "permit book" at the League

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Are you quoting from the permit entries that appear in the newspapers, or the actual "permit book" at the League

Actual Permit Book from League

 

[rbartlett]

Actual Permit Book from League

Oh right. You have access to those! Theyre the hand-written ones right. I think SR showed me a page of them once.
If there's no clearance between 1925 and 1929, we can assume he didnt go to another League club (or else he needed a clearance), and therefore could go to the country /local clubs instead (thereby not needing a clearance).

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Actual Permit Book from League

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

If there's no clearance between 1925 and 1929, we can assume he didnt go to another League club (or else he needed a clearance), and therefore could go to the country /local clubs instead (thereby not needing a clearance).

Agreed. That is what it says to me. Registered to Richmond as he came via local Juniors club prior to 1929 and must have played with Richmond to require a transfer to SM.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Oh right. You have access to those! Theyre the hand-written ones right. I think SR showed me a page of them once.

Am reviewing some more tomorrow if you need any checked.

 

[rbartlett]

Agreed. That is what it says to me. Registered to Richmond as he came via local Juniors club prior to 1929 and must have played with Richmond to require a transfer to SM.

Well we know he played 1 game for Richmond Reserves in 1925 (as it is listed in our Annual Report), and perhaps in 1926 (not listed in the Annual Report).

*do i assume you help out Col/SR, hence you have access to the permit books*

 

[rbartlett]

Am reviewing some more tomorrow if you need any checked.

Do they go into the early 1960s. Dad always said that Maurie Fleming had to obtain a permit from the Caulfield Oakleigh District League for him to actually play with Richmond - so I wonder if that is listed anywhere from around 1962 (U17s)

 

[Procrastinator35]

Essendon were Same Olds or Dons (Bombers started in WW2), Hawthorn were Mayblooms or Mustard Pots (Hawks began in 1943), North Melb were Shinboners, North or Blue Birds (Kangaroos started in 1950).

If that's the case, then the knife could represent the shinboners, being a butchers knife.....That just leaves Hawthorn & Essendon then.

 

[GreyCrow]

View attachment 824546

View attachment 824548

Heres hoping there isnt yellow marker in the old books now

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Heres hoping there isnt yellow marker in the old books now

I thought they looked a bit drab