Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

Roland Duncan.
Just an fyi, Roland Duncan played for Coll in 1900. Then went to Richmond in 1902 and played in our VFA premiership
Tigers of Old book (pub 1996) says he would later play for Beverley in 1907-08 then play for Richmond VFL 1 game in 1909.
But that's impossible, as Roland was born in 1889. The Beverley player is a new recruit and atm we believe him to be Robert Duncan as per wiki.
So just an fyi incase you were using Tigers of Old as a reference.

1879 for Roland?

The DOB for Robert Duncan on AFL Tables doesn't match that shown elsewhere:

Australian Football - Robert Duncan - Player Bio

australianfootball.com

Robert Duncan (footballer) - Wikiwand

Robert Duncan was a former Australian rules footballer who played with Richmond in the Victorian Football League (VFL).

www.wikiwand.com

This has the same as AustralianFootball.com

The AFL Historical Statistics site had:


This seems to be the one they've gone with. I wonder if it's correct, and also wonder where *Paul* got that DOB from?:

 

[rbartlett]

Does anyone know where one can find service records of people in the Garrison Artillery
At the moment Fred Alder - is listed as 1 game for Richmond in 1909 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Alder
The Richmond Guardian says he is from "Artillery", which I assume to be Garrison Artillery. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article257212649

Our records said he came from Glenhuntly 1907-08, but I have no idea where they got that from

Tigerland Archive | Fred Alder

Tigerland Archive

tigerlandarchive.org

Though I do see he may have played with Richmond City after his 1 game.

I suspect Alder is one of the many many many names where Rodgers search BDM to find a possible match. There is a F Alder in Horsham in 1894. But I notice there is a F Alder in Shepparton b: 1887. He could very well be right and all that, but just wondering if theres an Artillery record.

 

[35Daicos]

Does anyone know where one can find service records of people in the Garrison Artillery
At the moment Fred Alder - is listed as 1 game for Richmond in 1909 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Alder
The Richmond Guardian says he is from "Artillery", which I assume to be Garrison Artillery. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article257212649

Our records said he came from Glenhuntly 1907-08, but I have no idea where they got that from

Tigerland Archive | Fred Alder

Tigerland Archive

tigerlandarchive.org

Though I do see he may have played with Richmond City after his 1 game.

I suspect Alder is one of the many many many names where Rodgers search BDM to find a possible match. There is a F Alder in Horsham in 1894. But I notice there is a F Alder in Shepparton b: 1887. He could very well be right and all that, but just wondering if theres an Artillery record.

The Australasian, perhaps!?: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139685364

The Encyclopedia says "Recruited from Glenhuntly".

An Alder is named for a Field Artillery team in 1908: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242927732

I see there's a Bownas there as well.

Alder is also named here for Field Artillery: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242919194
Looks like Field Artillery and Garrison Artillery are different. They seem to have had their own teams.
It is a bit surprising he doesn't seem to have served in WWI.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10859265 (1910)

FamilySearch.org

Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.

ancestors.familysearch.org

There's an F. Alder playing cricket for Richmond City around that time.

This is probably him playing with his brother (mid-week ? football) in 1910: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66826196


Note the brother was born at East Brunswick.
Fred Alder even got married at the Presbyterian Church at East Brunswick a few years later, so there's little doubt it was him playing with that team!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1670928


I'd say this is a match for the chap they have in the records - born at Horsham in 1889, died at Balwyn in 1960.

 

[35Daicos]

The official records don't have Percy Barton playing the Rd. 17, 1909 game for Richmond against Essendon, but it looks like he did play. Paddy Bourke would be the one to have missed out.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241961625/26266602 (The Herald)

Only one Bourke was named in the squad (The Herald) the day before the game (Barton was one of 21 named): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241965144/26266590

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/257212713/28697288 (Richmond Guardian)


Sounds like he didn't have a good day!! He did not play another game (from same article as above).


A week later the same paper only says Richmond brought in Kiker for McEwan, without mentioning Barton: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/257212753/28697292

From The Argus (the day before the Rd. 17 game): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10729305

Shore obviously didn't end up playing.

The Age match report doesn't help: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198475873
Nothing from The Argus: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10730027
Or The Australasian: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139685917/11419789

 

[GreyCrow]

Does anyone know where one can find service records of people in the Garrison Artillery
At the moment Fred Alder - is listed as 1 game for Richmond in 1909 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Alder
The Richmond Guardian says he is from "Artillery", which I assume to be Garrison Artillery. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article257212649

Our records said he came from Glenhuntly 1907-08, but I have no idea where they got that from

Tigerland Archive | Fred Alder

Tigerland Archive

tigerlandarchive.org

Though I do see he may have played with Richmond City after his 1 game.

I suspect Alder is one of the many many many names where Rodgers search BDM to find a possible match. There is a F Alder in Horsham in 1894. But I notice there is a F Alder in Shepparton b: 1887. He could very well be right and all that, but just wondering if theres an Artillery record.

AUSTRALIAN FIELD ARTILLERY VICTORIA FOOTBALL TEAM, 1907.


Unidentified for now

 

[rbartlett]

The official records don't have Percy Barton playing the Rd. 17, 1909 game for Richmond against Essendon, but it looks like he did play. Paddy Bourke would be the one to have missed out.

The 1909 Richmond Annual Report lists Barton as playing 2 games (vs StK vs Sth), and Paddy Bourke playing 12 games.
In the table you can see Barton is underneath Bourke, so perhaps it was a typo and the Essendon entry should be on Barton' line.

I see that the Richmond Guardian shows Barton as reappearing which is important cause the Guardian was pretty well connected to the Richmond side and would have had their own reporter there at the game. And that correlates to Barton missing the Rd 16 match vs Carlton.

 

[35Daicos]

The 1909 Richmond Annual Report lists Barton as playing 2 games (vs StK vs Sth), and Paddy Bourke playing 12 games.
In the table you can see Barton is underneath Bourke, so perhaps it was a typo and the Essendon entry should be on Barton' line.

I see that the Richmond Guardian shows Barton as reappearing which is important cause the Guardian was pretty well connected to the Richmond side and would have had their own reporter there at the game. And that correlates to Barton missing the Rd 16 match vs Carlton. View attachment 835047

Richmond Guardian mentions P. Bourke being injured in the South Melbourne game (two weeks prior to the rd. 17 game): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/257212598

It would have been handy if the Annual Report had Barton on 3 games, but it does look pretty certain that he played that Essendon game, and Paddy Bourke didn't.

The P. Bourke figure in the AR is interesting!! AFL Tables has him on 15 games for 1909:

AFL Tables - 1909 Stats - Player Lists

That matches what the Historical Statistics site had:


You had Bill, Paddy and Joe (James) Bourke playing for you in 1909, so are the two games attributed to F. Bourke in the AR meant to belong to Paddy, or is there something else going on?! If Paddy was Patrick F. Bourke that might add up *. The two games indicated for "F. Bourke" (against Melb., Coll. in the "first round") are two that have been left off the list for Paddy (the rd. 1 & 4 games). That still leaves a discrepancy, even ignoring the rd. 17 situation. The AR doesn't have him playing against St Kilda in rd. 5, though AFL Tables does.

I can only see 16 players named on the AR as having played against St Kilda in the "first round" (rd. 5 game) - P. Bourke and Herbert are the two players named on AFL Tables but not the AR. Herbert is meant to be on 18 games for the year (AR has 17). Looks like they both did play that game.

* It seems that Paddy was Patrick Joseph Bourke: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/72665991


This has P. Bourke playing the rd. 4 Collingwood game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/257211825/28697228
And the rd. 1 game against Melbourne: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/257211617
So the "F." may have been just a mistake?

 

[ThePope]

Norm "no, not that one" Smith who played 5 games for Hawthorn in 1967 died last year and was in the list of obituaries in the 2020 AFL season guide. His date of birth in that list and on AustralianFootball.com and AFLTables is 1 Sept 1946. However, his death notice & Wikipedia article say 1 October 1946. The Wikipedia article was updated 2 days after his death with the comment "Modified birth date to 1 Oct 1946 (confirmed with the family)".

 

[35Daicos]

Norm "no, not that one" Smith who played 5 games for Hawthorn in 1967 died last year and was in the list of obituaries in the 2020 AFL season guide. His date of birth in that list and on AustralianFootball.com and AFLTables is 1 Sept 1946. However, his death notice & Wikipedia article say 1 October 1946. The Wikipedia article was updated 2 days after his death with the comment "Modified birth date to 1 Oct 1946 (confirmed with the family)".

The Encyclopedia has 9 Jan 1946 for Norm W. J. Smith, which is obviously not correct. It's easy to see where they got that from when you look at this entry (from AFL Historical Statistics site)!:

 

[Saint Kidding]

In the Football Record (1929 Rd. 3) they called him N. L. Le Brun, but that was clearly a mistake:
View attachment 824472

Curiously enough, there was another Norman Le Brun out there at the same time, seemingly the footballer's cousin: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206461433/19729815 (29 Sep 1953)
View attachment 824476
^ That refers to the death of the father of the footballer: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Norm_Le_Brun
View attachment 824481

Norm was meant to be unmarried, but his namesake/cousin got married in 1931:
View attachment 824479

Norms Mother was Maria Albress. Frank LeBrun abandoned them.

Bill Albress who played for Richmond in 1918/19 was his uncle. I believe anecdotally that Norm did start at Richmond, but I am not aware of any senior games.

 

[stemline]

Norm "no, not that one" Smith who played 5 games for Hawthorn in 1967 died last year and was in the list of obituaries in the 2020 AFL season guide. His date of birth in that list and on AustralianFootball.com and AFLTables is 1 Sept 1946. However, his death notice & Wikipedia article say 1 October 1946. The Wikipedia article was updated 2 days after his death with the comment "Modified birth date to 1 Oct 1946 (confirmed with the family)".

Thanks for this. As well as getting things as right as possible, it's slightly more significant because 1967 (when Smith played for Hawthorn) is already Hawthorn's youngest average age per season - now it's slightly younger again.

 

[rbartlett]

Working on an idea/project, and stuck on one thing.
What did Richmond player Alan Joseph McDonald do in 1942? Where did he go ? Can't seem to find anything in Trove.
He played for us from 1939-1941 in Seniors.
Then reappears in 1943 for a Senior game, then enlists in War Service on 7 September 1943. https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/veteran?id=546381&c=WW2#R
But where was he for all of 1942? He doesn't appear in the club's Reserves playing list https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1942+Reserves

Did he maybe enlist a year earlier ?
Cullen's "Harder Than Football" says he enlisted in 1943. VX144403 (V38364)

 

[GreyCrow]

Working on an idea/project, and stuck on one thing.
What did Richmond player Alan Joseph McDonald do in 1942? Where did he go ? Can't seem to find anything in Trove.
He played for us from 1939-1941 in Seniors.
Then reappears in 1943 for a Senior game, then enlists in War Service on 7 September 1943. https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/veteran?id=546381&c=WW2#R
But where was he for all of 1942? He doesn't appear in the club's Reserves playing list https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1942+Reserves

Did he maybe enlist a year earlier ?
Cullen's "Harder Than Football" says he enlisted in 1943. VX144403 (V38364)

He is one I am looking at for an inaccuracy regarding the person named as his brother in AF

I dont think he is who the records say he is

 

[rbartlett]

He is one I am looking at for an inaccuracy regarding the person named as his brother in AF

I dont think he is who the records say he is

Well I'm made contact with Alan's daughter earlier in the week. And I told her we are missing death details of Alan's brother Jim. She said she will try to locate them. (Haven't heard back from her as to whether she knows what Alan was doing in 1942)

 

[GreyCrow]

Working on an idea/project, and stuck on one thing.
What did Richmond player Alan Joseph McDonald do in 1942? Where did he go ? Can't seem to find anything in Trove.
He played for us from 1939-1941 in Seniors.
Then reappears in 1943 for a Senior game, then enlists in War Service on 7 September 1943. https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/veteran?id=546381&c=WW2#R
But where was he for all of 1942? He doesn't appear in the club's Reserves playing list https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1942+Reserves

Did he maybe enlist a year earlier ?
Cullen's "Harder Than Football" says he enlisted in 1943. VX144403 (V38364)

Its possible as a 'country boy' he went and did work on the farm or elsewhere to make up numbers?

FOOTBALL OPENS QUIETLY: NO COUNTRY PLAYERS - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 1 Apr 1942

Melbourne football for 1942 made n very humble beginning last night when four clubs, Richmond. Essendon, Carlton and Fitzroy, had opening runs. Only 133 players, far below usual numbers, stripped. ...

nla.gov.au

Melbourne football for 1942 made a very humble beginning
last night when four clubs, Richmond. Essendon, Carlton and
Fltzroy, had opening runs. Only 133 players, far below usual
numbers, stripped.
No country playcrs were present. |
Tills Is the first lime since the
end of the last war that, only locals
have participated on the opening
run, and. If there Is football, it is
Fix this textlikely that no country players will
take part In League games. |

I have seen an advertisement for an AJ McDonald in the Whittlesea District

 

[35Daicos]

Working on an idea/project, and stuck on one thing.
What did Richmond player Alan Joseph McDonald do in 1942? Where did he go ? Can't seem to find anything in Trove.
He played for us from 1939-1941 in Seniors.
Then reappears in 1943 for a Senior game, then enlists in War Service on 7 September 1943. https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/veteran?id=546381&c=WW2#R
But where was he for all of 1942? He doesn't appear in the club's Reserves playing list https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1942+Reserves

Did he maybe enlist a year earlier ?
Cullen's "Harder Than Football" says he enlisted in 1943. VX144403 (V38364)

This is from 19 May 1943: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/181661494


Referring to the next week's game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11338535

 

[rbartlett]

This is from 19 May 1943: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/181661494
View attachment 835910

Well that answers that. Ive never ever heard of "Battle Stations" in Australia. I'm guessing its like some type of War camp?/Training camp ?

 

[35Daicos]

Well that answers that. Ive never ever heard of "Battle Stations" in Australia. I'm guessing its like some type of War camp?/Training camp ?

Perhaps it's just a training camp, but it may be that they were stationed in those places (in Australia) ready to fight the enemy? I suspect the latter, as the name suggests they would have been there to fight. This is from 1942: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12002521


Also from 1942:


1943:


But wouldn't he need to have joined the Army to be sent to one? So he must have joined up earlier than the records show?

 

[rbartlett]

J.J Bourke - RFC 1909.
Does everyone else read this entry as intended - the RFC player J.J.Bourke is Irish.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article257211619


Wiki has him as James Joseph Bourke b: 1884 in Yarrawonga. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Bourke
I'm not suggesting J.J.Bourke was actually born in Ireland (which would make the wiki entry for a wrong person), but even though "Irish lad" is in quotations - it logically still means he was Irish. Right?

Bourke had a big clearance issue after leaving Richmond when he played a game for Muckatah http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article210160186
Interestingly if I do a search for "J J Bourke" (which is how he was named in Richmond Guardian), BEFORE his VFL career, I notice a person of the same initials participating in a St Patrick's Day carnival in Benalla in the hurdles. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70758338
It lists him as from Boosey, which is only 17 minutes from Muckatah.

And there's an E.L.Bourke (Boosey) in an earlier race. Perhaps a relation/ or not.

 

[35Daicos]

J.J Bourke - RFC 1909.
Does everyone else read this entry as intended - the RFC player J.J.Bourke is Irish.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article257211619
View attachment 835944

Wiki has him as James Joseph Bourke b: 1884 in Yarrawonga. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Bourke
I'm not suggesting J.J.Bourke was actually born in Ireland (which would make the wiki entry for a wrong person), but even though "Irish lad" is in quotations - it logically still means he was Irish. Right?

Bourke had a big clearance issue after leaving Richmond when he played a game for Muckatah http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article210160186
Interestingly if I do a search for "J J Bourke" (which is how he was named in Richmond Guardian), BEFORE his VFL career, I notice a person of the same initials participating in a St Patrick's Day carnival in Benalla in the hurdles. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70758338
It lists him as from Boosey, which is only 17 minutes from Muckatah.

And there's an E.L.Bourke (Boosey) in an earlier race. Perhaps a relation/ or not.

I'm not really sure what that's supposed to mean, but presumably he was still Australian born but with Irish heritage!

I saw that bit about the clearance issue when looking into the "Bourke story" yesterday. I've seen him referred to as James Bourke a couple of times, yet the (football) records suggest he was known as Joe.

It doesn't look like E. L. Bourke was his brother, but pretty decent chance they would be related:

 

[35Daicos]

What did Richmond player Alan Joseph McDonald do in 1942? Where did he go ? Can't seem to find anything in Trove.
He played for us from 1939-1941 in Seniors.
Then reappears in 1943 for a Senior game, then enlists in War Service on 7 September 1943. https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/veteran?id=546381&c=WW2#R

Alan McDonald is named in the records as having played for Richmond in Rd. 18 1941. It appears to be extremely likely that he didn't play that game, and Bernie Waldron did.
The Sporting Globe has: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/181711771


From The Age (day before the game): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205176933


So Waldron is named in that side^, with McDonald to go out. Waldron isn't named as an 'in', yet he wasn't meant to be in the side the week before against Hawthorn either. The Sporting Globe names him for that game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/181711238

Ray Steele is named in the official lineup for this game, but not named here^, plus The Age did have him coming into the side a week later (vs. Geelong): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205176933


The Herald: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245620084


The Argus changes for Rd. 17 Hawthorn game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8199910

So Edwards missed out and McDonald played (as the records have it) in his place.

Waldron gets mentioned in the Finals Wk. 1 Football Record as having played in Rd. 18:


The Age (referring to 1st Semi-Final side): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205177998


Waldron is in the records as having played just three games in 1941, and they were in rds. 1, 2 and 4. He was injured back in May and didn't play for quite a while but clearly did play (seniors) again later in the year.
It looks like he should take the place of Steele for the Rd. 17 game and McDonald for Rd. 18.

 

[rbartlett]

Well, this may help.
I've found the official Richmond club records showing the number of games in 1941 as printed in Annual Report
If I wash that against AFLTables we have these discrepancies.

Keith Brooks: 5 AR vs 7 AFLTables (discrepancy of 2 games) *I think Brooks did play 7 as per below post. RFC AR didn't count 19th man not taking field
Ian Hull: 16 AR v 17vAFLTables (discrepancy of 1 game) *His Rd 17 was as 19th man, didnt take field. Hence 17 games on AFLT is correct
Alan McDonald 17 AR vs 18 AFLTables (discrepancy of 1 game) *I think Daics has solved that in above post. Spreadsheet updated
Charlie Priestley 14 AR vs 15 AFLTables (discrepancy of 1 game)
Roy Quinn 0 AR vs 1 AFLTables (discrepancy of 1 game) *I think Quinn did play 1, as per below post. RFC AR didn't count 19th man not taking field
Laird Smith 17 AR vs 18 AFLTables (discrepancy of 1 game)
Ray Steele 8 AR vs 9 AFLTables (discrepancy of 1 game) *I think Daics has solved that in above post. Spreadsheet updated
Jack Symonds 13 AR vs 14 AFLTables (discrepancy of 1 game)
Bernie Waldron 5 AR vs 3 AFLTables (discrepancy of 1 game) *I think Daics has solved that in above post. Spreadsheet updated
Bill White 7 AR vs 8 AFLTAbles (discrepancy of 1 game) * 8 games is correct. RFC AR didnt count 19th man not taking field

This may solve some issues (such as the Waldon research) but start new ones.
I'm not sure RFC AR tallies up to the required number. It would be 19 games x 19 players right. Which is 361. But I tally 353 using AR column.

 

[rbartlett]

I suspect AR is partially right, and partially wrong.
So if we go through this one by one.
As per the new research above.
Waldron would now be credited with the 2 games found in the above research. Taking him to 7 games.
And Steele loses 1 game to end on 8 games, and McDonald loses 1 game to end on 17 games.
That would bring AFLTABLES into line with the 1941 AR. So I think I'll add that to the spreadsheet.

Roy Quinn is not listed as playing in 1941 according to AR. AFLTABLES has him as 1 game, Rd 12 vs Collingwood So did he play?
The Argus day before the game says J Quinn is out of the match, and Roy Quinn will be 19th man, as he played against Coll the previous year.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article8192803 Maybe the AR didnt list a game played if you never took the field as 19th man. That may explain the Quinn discrepancy , and the Brooks discrepancy below

As for Keith Brooks - my initial research is showing that AFLTables is correct and he played 7 games (well he's named in the team day before, or is listed as playing on the day as 19th man) , not 5 as per AR. (if the Brooks and Quinn stats are right, that closes the gap of the total games discrepancy between AR and AFLT to 5. 356 vs 361 which is the magic number we have to get to).

 

[35Daicos]

I suspect AR is partially right, and partially wrong.
So if we go through this one by one.
As per the new research above.
Waldron would now be credited with the 2 games found in the above research. Taking him to 7 games.
And Steele loses 1 game to end on 8 games, and McDonald loses 1 game to end on 17 games.
That would bring AFLTABLES into line with the 1941 AR. So I think I'll add that to the spreadsheet.

Roy Quinn is not listed as playing in 1941 according to AR. AFLTABLES has him as 1 game, Rd 12 vs Collingwood So did he play?
The Argus day before the game says J Quinn is out of the match, and Roy Quinn will be 19th man, as he played against Coll the previous year.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article8192803 Maybe the AR didnt list a game played if you never took the field as 19th man. That may explain the Quinn discrepancy , and the Brooks discrepancy below

As for Keith Brooks - my initial research is showing that AFLTables is correct and he played 7 games (well he's named in the team day before, or is listed as playing on the day as 19th man) , not 5 as per AR. (if the Brooks and Quinn stats are right, that closes the gap of the total games discrepancy between AR and AFLT to 5. 356 vs 361 which is the magic number we have to get to).

Yes, I made it 353 as well in the Annual Report, with 8 games missing. It would be handy if they didn't count games when the 19th man failed to get on the ground, as you've suggested, as that would account for a fair bit of the discrepancy.

Wouldn't the AR already be correct with Waldron on 5 games? AFL Tables has him on 3 games and it should end up with another 2 added (Rd. 17 & 18) = 5.

 

[rbartlett]

Wouldn't the AR already be correct with Waldron on 5 games? AFL Tables has him on 3 games and it should end up with another 2 added (Rd. 17 & 18) = 5.

Yep. My error. Waldron would be on 5.