Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

I'm pretty keen to redeem myself after the R. Snell debacle, so I'm hoping this really is the right chap!!:
View attachment 1910443
View attachment 1910444
It should be:
View attachment 1910447
From Ancestry:
View attachment 1910448
This^ is meant to be from 1925 (Army cadet). He looks older than 18 to me, but these photos do seem to be linked to the right person:
View attachment 1910450

View attachment 1910446
View attachment 1910451

Have passed that one on . Thank you

 

[rbartlett]

View attachment 1910454
View attachment 1910455
From Ancestry:
View attachment 1910453
View attachment 1910456
This is meant to be him, though obviously from well after his playing days. I can't guarantee these folks on Ancestry have the right people in these photos, but just hope they know what they're doing!

I'll pass that one on as well. Certainly gives the a starting point if the Boyce family ever turn up to the Museum at Docklands and goes "hey! thats not our father/gf etc"

 

[rbartlett]

Summary for Rodgers:
Change the club of origin for Roy Snell (Fitz 1924) from West Adelaide to Brunswick Juniors

 

[Bandit55]

He came from Port Melb and played cricket... from this article PERSONAL ITEMS - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1954) - 13 May 1939 he was alive in 1939 but the current guy died in 1934 - I have a note "likely Ronald George Williams St John (1889 - 1965)"

I believe that you are correct.

According to this article George St John was alive and well in 1941:

25 Oct 1941 - "TALLY" LEONARD WAS A FINE CRICKETER - Trove

In addition, none of the Port or South Melbourne cricket reports in the local papers refer to him as a veteran player, e.g., being over 30.

Ronald George Williams St John was born in Port Melbourne and appears to have lived there until the mid to late 1920s. Thus being eligible to play district cricket for South Melbourne. He had an older brother James Stanley Willis St John who passed away in 1939:





I found little information on George St John (1878-1934). There isn't a Victorian birth registration for a George St John in 1878.

It appears that he may have been George Elias St John who unfortunately was a neglected child and became a ward of the State:



The George St John who passed away on 19 February 1934 was George Francis St John (I guess there is a possibility that he could be the same person as George Elias). Unfortunately, he passed away in the Ararat Asylum aged 54 (there's no DoB) having being admitted there on 3 October 1929:

Public Record Office Victoria Collection | PROV

 

[stemline]

Sorry, to interrupt the fantastic work being done here with another behind inaccuracy, but... All references for the 1991 Grand Final Hawthorn v West Coast have Hawthorn's Darrin Pritchard kicking 1 behind and Ray Jencke kicking none.

From this video at the 48:27 mark it couldn't be much clearer that Jencke hits the post with a long range shot. Darrin Pritchard doesn't appear to kick a behind in this game.

Similar to 1989, the newspapers of the following day had it correct (Jencke 1, Pritchard 0) so it's hard to see where this error has come from.

As for Darrin Pritchard's grand final behinds (1989 & 1991), the behind god giveth, and the behind god taketh away.



Summary -
1991 GF (Haw v WC), Ray Jencke plus 1 behind, Darrin Pritchard minus 1 behind.

 

[the croucher]

I think there are three more matches in 1907 which have the wrong starting time shown at present. All relate to Geelong players and supporters travelling to the city on "specials" and the train being delayed.

Round 9 1907 (29 June) between Carlton and Geelong

AFL Tables - Carlton v Geelong - Sat, 29-Jun-1907 3:00 PM - Match Stats

Australian Football - Match Details: 1907 R9 Carlton vs Geelong

australianfootball.com

was delayed by 20 minutes so start time should be 3.20 not 3.00

THE LEAGUE. - COLLINGWOOD V. ST. KILDA COLLINGWOOD WINS. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 29 Jun 1907

The match which was regarded as likely to be the most attractive of the day was that between the St Kilda and Collingwood teams. The beautiful ...

trove.nla.gov.au

GEELONG v. CARLTON. - A WIN FOR GEELONG. - Geelong Advertiser (Vic. : 1859 - 1929) - 1 Jul 1907

The easy manner in which Carlton defeated St. Kilda led to the belief being generally entertained in the metropolis that the dark blues were a certainty, for the 1907 ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Round 11 1907 (13 July) between St Kilda and Geelong

AFL Tables - St Kilda v Geelong - Sat, 13-Jul-1907 3:00 PM - Match Stats

Australian Football - Match Details: 1907 R11 St. Kilda vs Geelong

australianfootball.com

was delayed by 20 minutes so start time should be 3.20 not 3.00

THE LEAGUE. - ST. KILDA V. GEELONG. GEELONG WINS. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 13 Jul 1907

The marked improvement in the Ge long team this season has attracted more interest in their matches than has been seen at Geelong for many years. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

FOOTBALL IN THE DARK. - FINE GEELONG FINISH. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 15 Jul 1907

The struggle for a place in the final four of the Football League promises to be especially interesting this season, a result largely brought about by the revival of the Geelong ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Round 14 1907 (10 August) between Collingwood and Geelong

AFL Tables - Collingwood v Geelong - Sat, 10-Aug-1907 3:00 PM - Match Stats

Australian Football - Match Details: 1907 R14 Collingwood vs Geelong

australianfootball.com

was delayed by 20 minutes so start time should be 3.20 not 3.00

THE LEAGUE. - SOUTH MELB. V. ST. KILDA SOUTH MELBOURNE WINS. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 10 Aug 1907

trove.nla.gov.au

GEELONG v. COLLINGWOOD. - A W[?] FOR COLLINGWOOD. - Geelong Advertiser (Vic. : 1859 - 1929) - 12 Aug 1907

The outlook for football in the early part of the afternoon was decidedly gloomy. The sky was overcast, and ram was beginning to fail steadily. Happily, however, the ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Summary: three roster matches in 1907 need start time amendments - 3.00pm corrected to 3.20pm -
Rnd 9 Carlton v Geelong, Rnd 11 St Kilda v Geelong, Rnd 14 Collingwood v Geelong

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Jim Warne (StK) has an incorrect death date of 16 Aug 1958 in online football records.

He was James Washington Warne - as per permits etc linked on his wiki page

However a Vic BDM search shows a 1957 death:


He was buried at Cheltenham cemetery on 14 Feb 1957 - but I haven't been able to identify an exact date of death. Can't see anything in The Age death notices and I don't have a Cheltenham Cemetery membership. No Ancestry trees seem to have a correct exact date.
Can anyone here find his real death date?

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Howard Stafford (Uni) died in Burma during World War II - he was working for a mining company there when the Japanese invaded. Currently football records (wiki, af.com) have a date of death as 7 January 1942.

However, in his military file there is a letter from his widow which contains:

She was writing in 1959 and got the death year wrong as per below

Victorian probate records have:


Trove has a few death notices published in July 1942 but none specify a death date - they just say he died in Burma.

Think this is pretty clear though

Summary: Date of death for Howard Stafford to be changed to 23 May 1942

 

[stemline]

Have spent the last two and a half hours or so led down a rabbit-hole by a seemingly innocuous sentence on an otherwise bare Wikipedia article. I'm looking at Jerry McAuliffe, he of Hawthorn fame, who played 10 games for the Mayblooms in 1934. He is listed as being originally from Claremont-Cottesloe, so it surprised me that he would travel from Western Australia (pre-1934) to Victoria (1934) and then – according to this note – to Leeton in NSW to captain-coach a premiership in 1935.

The Leeton article spoke of a J. A. McAuliffe, which got me searching BDMs across the country to try and find something that matched up with the listed birth/death years of 1910 and 1959 respectively. John Augustine McAuliffe of Leeton died in 1959 (NSW BDM reg. 14385/1959), so I had considered that. However, an Ancestry search also brought up plenty for John Alfred McAuliffe, who was born in 1910 in Macarthur (Vic BDM reg. 28705/1910), got married in Barellan (near Leeton) to Mavis Jamieson in 1937, and died tragically in a shotgun accident at Stony Point on 26 May 1940. One point to note is that the article on his death said he was 28 years of age – which doesn't exactly link up with a 1910 birth year (although the paper is every chance of being wrong). John Alfred's father, also called John (middle name Garrard) died in 1935 in Leeton, which adds to the confusion.

I was beginning to think that neither of those J. A. McAuliffes are our Jerry though. Here is an article from April 1934 on McAuliffe coming across from Western Australia to train with Collingwood. He would debut for Hawthorn in late May 1934 and play 10 weeks consecutively before retiring in late August to focus on his medical studies. The article also says McAuliffe – who they refer to as Jack McAuliffe, not Jerry – had been in Victoria for three years. To cross-check and confirm we have the right guy who played for Claremont-Cottesloe and Hawthorn, this article lists J. McAuliffe being granted a clearance to Victoria from C-C, and this article also describes that same clearance, but lists him as J. A. McAuliffe (there are those initials again!) Interestingly, both of the clearance articles are from April 1934 – is it possible that Jack (is he still Jerry?) McAuliffe moved to Victoria in 1931 and didn't bother applying for a clearance until he decided to pick up playing footy again?

I ran some more searches for "McAuliffe" and "Claremont" in the 1930s. 1938: Wedding bells! And it is... John Augustine McAuliffe, the first J. A. I came across! John married Ethel Dempsey in Melbourne in January 1938, where the article says the pair will make their life in Leeton. Do we know if that is Jack McAuliffe the Claremont/Hawthorn footballer though? Maybe not. Why? Because further down the article, a "Dr. J. McAuliffe of Melbourne was best man". We know that Jack retired from footy at the end of 1934 to pursue his medical studies. Did he become a doctor in the years between his retirement and his friend (or relative? or himself?) John Augustine getting married? As for John Augustine McAuliffe, he was born in Kalgoorlie in 1909 (WA BDM reg. 1800384), which puts him very close in age to the Jack/Jerry McAuliffe we are trying to chase down (supposedly born in 1910).

Time to search up "McAuliffe" and "Leeton" and go hunting for more answers. Boom – 1959, a probate jurisdiction re: the estate of John Augustine McAuliffe, late of Leeton, dental practitioner, deceased, interstate. Date of death given as 4 May 1959, which is the same date listed in the league's records for Jerry McAuliffe, the man who I have been trying to find all along. According to electoral rolls, John Augustine was in Leeton from approximately 1937–1958, which links up around the times of his wedding and death.

More confusing stuff – there is another John Augustine McAuliffe, who also died in 1959, less than a month before the guy who we think we are searching for, which makes for another possibly confusing red herring. However, we can rule him out as he was born in 1891 (Qld BDM reg. 1891/C/7025) and lived his entire life in Queensland.

There is precious little of John Augustine McAuliffe, the dentist who died in Leeton in 1959, on Ancestry. He is only found in 4 trees – the first listing gives his birth year (I believe incorrectly) as 1910 and provides no other info. The second and third listings both include his marriage in Victoria to Ethel Dempsey and his death in New South Wales, but provide nothing of his birth. Yet finally... the last listing... in a tree of just 2(!) people, John Augustine McAuliffe is listed as being born on 30 August 1909 in Perth, WA. There is no other data, but it is seemingly all we need. While Kalgoorlie (as listed on the WA BDM record) is certainly a decent hop from Perth, we can ascertain this is the same guy.

So, after all those runarounds...

Suggested change: Change of name from Jerry McAuliffe to Jack McAuliffe. Change of date of birth to 30 August 1909 (previously listed as 27 August 1910). Addition of full name John Augustine McAuliffe.

Can anyone else run their eyes over this and see if it checks out? Or if I did things the hard way? Cheers.

I've read through this about 6 times and still not sure! Sounds like there were at least 5 brothers.. the 2 wedding articles describe John as being the 4th son, and Jack as being the youngest. Likely Jerry was another (maybe the doctor), and the brothers all ended up re-assembling at Leeton.

The two DOB dates seem just far enough apart to be brothers and it does seem likely that at least one of the current DOB and DOD for the footballer are mixed up with an incorrect brother.

 

[Gibbsy]

I've read through this about 6 times and still not sure! Sounds like there were at least 5 brothers.. the 2 wedding articles describe John as being the 4th son, and Jack as being the youngest. Likely Jerry was another (maybe the doctor), and the brothers all ended up re-assembling at Leeton.

The two DOB dates seem just far enough apart to be brothers and it does seem likely that at least one of the current DOB and DOD for the footballer are mixed up with an incorrect brother.

I'm really at a loss here too; upon looking over some of my notes and trying to dig a bit deeper into McAuliffe's debut at Hawthorn for any clues, it appears like even the journalists of the day were confused. I think there has to have been at least two J. McAuliffes playing footy at the same time but who and where is extremely hard to pin down.

Working backwards from McAuliffe's retirement in 1934 to "pursue his medical studies"...

• This article says Jack McAuliffe is a former West Australian footballer who has been in Victoria for three years, trained with Collingwood in early 1934, and then transferred to Hawthorn to play 10 games with them – all consecutively from Rd 4 to Rd 13.

• There was a bye week between Rd 13 and Rd 14. Hawthorn and Footscray actually travelled up to Leeton to play an exhibition match! And there was an 'early game' between Leeton and Berrigan. A J. McAuliffe is named in both in the Hawthorn and Leeton sides. Two J McAuliffes, or the same guy going back to back? Note that Jack McAuliffe didn't play any more games for Hawthorn after this exhibition game.

• This article says he played for Uni Blacks before his move to Hawthorn, which makes sense if he'd been in Victoria for three years.

• This list of transfers from a week earlier confirms that McAuliffe was transferred from Uni Blacks.

• But this list of transfers, published on the very same day, has McAuliffe as coming from "West Australia" instead...

• There was a J. McAuliffe playing footy for Leeton in May 1934 (prior to any transfers to Hawthorn)

• It is definitely so that a McAuliffe from Western Australia was training and playing in practice matches with Collingwood in early 1934.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I've read through this about 6 times and still not sure! Sounds like there were at least 5 brothers.. the 2 wedding articles describe John as being the 4th son, and Jack as being the youngest. Likely Jerry was another (maybe the doctor), and the brothers all ended up re-assembling at Leeton.

WA BDM shows 6 brothers including Jerry, Jack and Joe:


with deaths in WA for all of them except for Jack

From Ancestry electoral rolls both Jerry and Jack were dentists and Joe was a doctor!

 

[Gibbsy]

Wanted to confirm Jack McAuliffe's playing record at Uni Blacks, just to try and fill in the blanks with his career and confirm he definitely came to Hawthorn (and Collingwood training) via Uni Blacks and not straight from WA.

Again, working backwards from his Hawthorn debut in May 1934:


He is mentioned again in another Collingwood practice match in April 1934:


At Uni Blacks in 1933:


Uni Blacks 1932:


Uni Blacks 1931:


And I get the feeling this is also him in 1930, but with a misspelled surname:

 

[Gibbsy]

WA BDM shows 6 brothers including Jerry, Jack and Joe:
View attachment 1915329

with deaths in WA for all of them except for Jack
View attachment 1915337
From Ancestry electoral rolls both Jerry and Jack were dentists and Joe was a doctor!

This is good data, thank you. Makes me pretty sure that John Augustine "Jack" McAuliffe is our man, as opposed to Jerry.

But I'd still love to piece together the rest of Jack's story in regards to his WA years (and whether it was him at Claremont-Cott) as well as his time in Leeton.

Here's Jack's death record from NSW:

 

[Gibbsy]

I think this is probably the kicker:






Leeton Jack McAuliffe = Hawthorn Jack McAuliffe
Jack McAuliffe = J. A. McAuliffe = John Augustine McAuliffe (as suspected)

Note that the other J. McAuliffe listed (from Fivebough) is, by deduction, John Alfred McAuliffe, the other J. A. "Jack" McAuliffe in Leeton.



He died in 1940 from a gunshot accident.



Note that John Alfred's brother is Charlie (not the name of any brothers of John Augustine).



--------------------------------------------------

This is almost elementary to the case of who was the McAuliffe who played for Hawthorn in 1934, but here's some evidence of a McAuliffe playing for Claremont-Cottesloe in 1929. They played in "B" Grade, so no games recorded on WAFL Footy Facts.



I do wonder if the guy above is the Jack McAuliffe who played local football in WA throughout the 1930s while 'our man' Jack McAuliffe played in Vic for Uni Blacks/Hawthorn...

Because there are a heap of references to the 'other' McAuliffe throughout the 1930s in WA, for a heap of different clubs

 

[35Daicos]

This is with Claremont-Cottesloe in 1929:

 

[Gibbsy]

WA BDM shows 6 brothers including Jerry, Jack and Joe:
View attachment 1915329

with deaths in WA for all of them except for Jack
View attachment 1915337
From Ancestry electoral rolls both Jerry and Jack were dentists and Joe was a doctor!

Jack (John Augustine) is definitely the dentist / Leeton player / Hawthorn player we need. Adding on to my post above.

Here are a couple of mentions of him from the early 1950s. Looks like he settled in Leeton from 1935 onwards and never left. Btw he was pro fluoride.

 

[rbartlett]

View attachment 1909194
View attachment 1909217

Richmond 1909: LEAGUE FOOTBALL: COLLINGWOOD AND RICHMOND MATCH. - Weekly Times (Melbourne, Vic. : 1869 - 1954) - 29 May 1909
View attachment 1909212

I personally don't have any objection 35Daicos for the new identity of George St John. Those two images to me show the same person. Up to you if you wish to do a summary for Rodgers - or if you think there is still something outstanding regarding this

Edit:
It was WhiteHartLane23 who posted it originally. My bad.
WHL - i'm happy with the change in identification , if you have no objections, feel free to place a summary for Rogers.

 

[35Daicos]

I personally don't have any objection 35Daicos for the new identity of George St John. Those two images to me show the same person. Up to you if you wish to do a summary for Rodgers - or if you think there is still something outstanding regarding this

Apart from posting that I don't think I had all that much to do with the George St John one. I do think it is quite certain that it's the same person in the two photos, i.e. the cricketer is the footballer.

 

[rbartlett]

Im sure this means nothing, but just in case - Fred Arthur Goding (Melb and Richmond)
Fred Goding - Wikipedia. is called Frank Goding in Trove (Richmond Guardian) about the same number of times as he is called Fred Goding in the same paper (which isn't a lot of times tbh).

Permits show F.A Goding, and Demonwiki has a nice summary of him as he played seconds in 1928

Fred Goding | Demonwiki

Demonwiki.org is the ultimate resource for Melbourne Demons fans. Explore team history, player profiles, match results, and more. Stay updated with the latest news on the Demons.

demonwiki.org

I don't think there's any incorrect identification here, its just that I was a bit suspicious they were calling him Frank, which I didnt think was a derivative of Fred. So it may have just been a nickname solely from the Richmond Guardian

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

WHL - i'm happy with the change in identification , if you have no objections, feel free to place a summary for Rogers.

George St John (Richmond, Port Melb, Melbourne)
Reasons for change

• Footballer was described as a young player in 1909 when currently identified player would have been 30
• Was also a cricketer for Port Melbourne C.C. and South Melbourne C.C. - according to this article he was alive in 1939 and had a brother called Stanley

Summary of proposed change:
Identity of footballer to be changed to:
Full name: Ronald George Williams St John
Birth: 1889 at Port Melbourne (Vic BDM 1889/34045) - exact date tbc
Death: 1 Jun 1965 (aged 55) at Box Hill

 

[rbartlett]

Well at least we have his weight now.

Summary:
Bruce Godfrey's (Richmond) weight of 78kgs to be added to AFLTables *Paul* , and AF if required Oliver G , and also to AFL records if not already Stephen Rodgers

 

[Bandit55]

Im sure this means nothing, but just in case - Fred Arthur Goding (Melb and Richmond)
Fred Goding - Wikipedia. is called Frank Goding in Trove (Richmond Guardian) about the same number of times as he is called Fred Goding in the same paper (which isn't a lot of times tbh).

Permits show F.A Goding, and Demonwiki has a nice summary of him as he played seconds in 1928

Fred Goding | Demonwiki

Demonwiki.org is the ultimate resource for Melbourne Demons fans. Explore team history, player profiles, match results, and more. Stay updated with the latest news on the Demons.

demonwiki.org

I don't think there's any incorrect identification here, its just that I was a bit suspicious they were calling him Frank, which I didnt think was a derivative of Fred. So it may have just been a nickname solely from the Richmond Guardian

While Fred's VFL/AFL may have been brief, he is worthy of greater recognition. He was awarded the MBE for his service in the South-West Pacific during World War 2:

Frederick Arthur Goding

Recommendation for Award for Goding, Frederick Arthur Rank: Major Service... | The National Archives

As they say there is still more. According to Ancestry his father and Charlie Goding (Melbourne & South Melbourne) were cousins and his sister Doreen married Ted Thomas (Melbourne & Oakleigh). Ted and Doreen are Leon Baker's grandparents, thus Fred is Leon's great uncle.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

While Fred's VFL/AFL may have been brief, he is worthy of greater recognition. He was awarded the MBE for his service in the South-West Pacific during World War 2:

Frederick Arthur Goding

Recommendation for Award for Goding, Frederick Arthur Rank: Major Service... | The National Archives

As they say there is still more. According to Ancestry his father and Charlie Goding (Melbourne & South Melbourne) were cousins and his sister Doreen married Ted Thomas (Melbourne & Oakleigh). Ted and Doreen are Leon Baker's grandparents, thus Fred is Leon's great uncle.

DAMN!

Charlie Goding and Leon must be something like 1st cousins 2x removed.

Edit: 1st cousins thrice removed.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

While Fred's VFL/AFL may have been brief, he is worthy of greater recognition. He was awarded the MBE for his service in the South-West Pacific during World War 2:

Frederick Arthur Goding

Recommendation for Award for Goding, Frederick Arthur Rank: Major Service... | The National Archives

As they say there is still more. According to Ancestry his father and Charlie Goding (Melbourne & South Melbourne) were cousins and his sister Doreen married Ted Thomas (Melbourne & Oakleigh). Ted and Doreen are Leon Baker's grandparents, thus Fred is Leon's great uncle.

Also, ping Oliver G and Supermercado.

More relo's to add here.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Keeping up with the Goding's, is Henry Goding's middle name "Albert" or "Arthur?"

Also, was he born in 1858 or 1860?

Probably more of a VFA/VFL issue than a VFL/AFL one but he's another one there and possibly in the same family.