Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[WhiteHartLane23]

Two more proposed DOB changes from WAFL Footy Facts reconciliation:
Jim Sewell (Footscray, East Freo) has DOB 3 Feb 1956 in VFL records but is listed as having DOB 3 Feb 1955 in WAFL records. As per The Two Dogs podcast episode he appeared in last year, he understated his age by a year in his VFL registration as he was concerned about people thinking he was too old - the WAFL date is correct.

Summary: Jim Sewell date of birth is 3 Feb 1955

Colin Waterson (Richmond, East Freo) has DOB 14 Jul 1959 in VFL records but is listed as having DOB 25 Jun 1959 in WAFL records. As per profile of him on p7 of this edition of Westside Football in 1985 and birthday notice on p5 of this edition in 1988 the 25 Jun 1955 date appears to be correct.

Summary: Colin Waterson date of birth is 25 Jun 1959
Oliver G rbartlett

 

[GreyCrow]

What are we doing about middle names? Either current or historic players

I think Ive spotted one which would be easy to confirm with the player now coach

I keep seeing Full Name in AF and I wondered what the go was

 

[Oliver G]

What are we doing about middle names? Either current or historic players

I think Ive spotted one which would be easy to confirm with the player now coach

I keep seeing Full Name in AF and I wondered what the go was

We (AF) are definitely after middle names, WhiteHartLane23 has sent us a list of thousands of V/AFL players with their middle names. I just need to get round to do a mass import of the new data.

 

[GreyCrow]

We (AF) are definitely after middle names, WhiteHartLane23 has sent us a list of thousands of V/AFL players with their middle names. I just need to get round to do a mass import of the new data.

I was looking through SABDM for some family names and spotted this - these were generated from Newspaper Birth Notices - I have redacted non essential stuff

BASSETT Nathan Birth NOTICE DATE 13-Dec-1976

BASSETT Nathan James Birthday 07-Dec-1993

When he was born his parents put a birth notice a week later - then on his 17th birthday a Happy Birthday was placed with a middle name and confirming his DOB in records

I think there was a query last year on middle names and I had a quick look then

 

[Oliver G]

I was looking through SABDM for some family names and spotted this - these were generated from Newspaper Birth Notices - I have redacted non essential stuff

BASSETT Nathan Birth NOTICE DATE 13-Dec-1976

BASSETT Nathan James Birthday 07-Dec-1993

When he was born his parents put a birth notice a week later - then on his 17th birthday a Happy Birthday was placed with a middle name and confirming his DOB in records

I think there was a query last year on middle names and I had a quick look then

Ta, have updated on AF.

 

[Gibbsy]

A question around the stat-counting of one of football's premier goalkickers – Tim Evans.

What is his commonly accepted games and goals tally for his time at Port Adelaide? I mean as of right now, in 2024 parlance, based on the stat-counting of today. No inclusion of pre-season games, or night series games, or state games (were those 'included' in SANFL players' match counts for many years?). Did he bring up the magical 1000 mark?

There's discrepancies all over the place, which are seemingly determined by which extra games the statistician has chosen to include. Even the club themselves have no idea.

Source	Games	Goals
Wikipedia infobox	230	993
PAFC website: 2020 Rucci article	232	1019
South Australian Football Hall of Fame	246	1041
PAFC website: 2015 Agius article	246	1041
Tasmanian Football Hall of Fame	248	1041
PAFC website: 2019 HoF article	248	1044
Australian Football	248	1044

It should go without saying that records like these should include regular season + finals matches only. But in the absence of a SANFL stats database like that of the AFL, WAFL and to a lesser extent VFA, we must simply work out what seems most plausible.

I am leaning towards the Wikipedia figure, given it has a note next to the totals which specifically says "These totals refer to premiership matches (home-and-away and finals matches) only". The body text of the article also says that Evans kicked "a further 51 goals in 18 games in pre-season and night series competition". Which, when added, brings us to the highest total of 248 games for 1044 goals.

But where would those other discrepancies come from? And how can there be so much variation? In that table above alone, from seven different websites there are five different tallies. Thanks.

 

[killer]

Football Times Annual 1987

FT seems to have invented this practice of combining all club games (Day / Night) in 1975

 

[killer]

Re SANFL Goal Kicking

If you look at the Grand Final Budgets from the 70's and the League Football in SA Annual (both SANFL publications)
They quote separately in the same issue total (including NFL Preseason Night series)
and goal kicking listed without the non premiership games (club total)

eg Tim Evans 1977 87 goals (in the top goal kickers list)
and 91 goals in the club total ( with 2 NFL matches)




why 87 not 88 as per Football times above (?)

 

[Brad_5668]

A question around the stat-counting of one of football's premier goalkickers – Tim Evans.

What is his commonly accepted games and goals tally for his time at Port Adelaide? I mean as of right now, in 2024 parlance, based on the stat-counting of today. No inclusion of pre-season games, or night series games, or state games (were those 'included' in SANFL players' match counts for many years?). Did he bring up the magical 1000 mark?

There's discrepancies all over the place, which are seemingly determined by which extra games the statistician has chosen to include. Even the club themselves have no idea.

Source	Games	Goals
Wikipedia infobox	230	993
PAFC website: 2020 Rucci article	232	1019
South Australian Football Hall of Fame	246	1041
PAFC website: 2015 Agius article	246	1041
Tasmanian Football Hall of Fame	248	1041
PAFC website: 2019 HoF article	248	1044
Australian Football	248	1044

It should go without saying that records like these should include regular season + finals matches only. But in the absence of a SANFL stats database like that of the AFL, WAFL and to a lesser extent VFA, we must simply work out what seems most plausible.

I am leaning towards the Wikipedia figure, given it has a note next to the totals which specifically says "These totals refer to premiership matches (home-and-away and finals matches) only". The body text of the article also says that Evans kicked "a further 51 goals in 18 games in pre-season and night series competition". Which, when added, brings us to the highest total of 248 games for 1044 goals.

But where would those other discrepancies come from? And how can there be so much variation? In that table above alone, from seven different websites there are five different tallies. Thanks.

The 1986 Port Adelaide FC Annual Report shows Tim Evans record as 248 games and 1041 goals.

 

[killer]

Also need game total for Tim Evans at Penguin 1969 / 70
Nothing listed on the TAS Hall of fame page

 

[killer]

The difference between the 1044 figure and 1041 you mentioned
could be his 3 Datsun Cup goals in 1975

Premiership 61
Datsun Cup 3 (Mid season comp)

 

[GreyCrow]

Can someone check and confirm these dates

AF has Wally born 14 April 1890

GIBBINS Walt Edwd Birth
Mother Ida ZIMMERMAN
Father , Jno Wm
CARLTON
1891
1443/1891



GIBBINS Walter Edward Death
Mother , Ida
ZIMMERMANN
GIBBINS John William
Born Carlton Died Heidelberg
73
1964
5113/1964

 

[ThePope]

I once tried to work out Stephen Michael's games played, but night games were counted - after all they were "real" games, not pre-season back then in the 70s/80s.
Sometimes State games were counted too - because sometimes they happened on a weekend when the comp didn't get a bye.
The famous Stephen Michael Train to Bassendean for his 200th game was actually only his 191th WAFL game, as they counted his 9 NFL/NFC games. Lack of computers/spreadsheets/databases also meant that often totals were never checked, just last year's total plus this year's addition.

 

[35Daicos]

Can someone check and confirm these dates

AF has Wally born 14 April 1890

GIBBINS Walt Edwd Birth
Mother Ida ZIMMERMAN
Father , Jno Wm
CARLTON
1891
1443/1891



GIBBINS Walter Edward Death
Mother , Ida
ZIMMERMANN
GIBBINS John William
Born Carlton Died Heidelberg
73
1964
5113/1964

When he enlisted for WWII he gave 14 April 1890 as his DOB (I presume that's where the AFL got the DOB from). He enlisted for WWI on 17 April 1917, and said he was 27 1/12, which fits with an 1890 year of birth. I can't see anything on Ancestry that helps, and think it may just have been that the parents were slack and didn't register the birth until early the following year!

17 March 1964 seems to be correct for his DOD: https://stjudes.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/GIBBONS-Walter.pdf

19 March 1964 was the date of the service.

 

[stemline]

1987 Rnd 05 Haw v WC - Behinds correction

All references have Richard Loveridge kicking no behinds, with 6 Rushed for Hawthorn.

As per below video, Loveridge clearly kicks 2 behinds (Hawthorn's 7th and 14th). All other players behind tallies align, along with 4 Rushed behinds for Hawthorn.



I slowed the first one down so you can clearly see it's number 22.

Summary -

1987 Rnd 5 Haw v WC - Richard Loveridge plus 2 behinds, Rushed for Hawthorn minus 2 behinds.

 

[Supermercado]

For anyone tracking players in different numbers, here's one for Carlton in Round 17, 1933 (source)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Colin Crampton (NM) does not have a death date in online footy sources.
His full name was Colin George Crampton and as per family trees on Ancestry and Ryerson Index he died on 6 July 1995



Summary: Add date of death of 6 July 1995 for Colin Crampton
Oliver G

 

[stemline]

1987 Rnd 18 WC v Haw behinds correction

You're going to have to bear with me on this one...

All references have Dermott Brereton kicking 1 behind, with 3 Rushed for Hawthorn.

Brereton kicks Hawthorn's 7th behind, per the video below. He also kicks Hawthorn's last behind, but the version of the game I have corrupts at that exact moment. But any Hawthorn supporter alive back then can tell you he missed a soda to leave Hawthorn down by 1 point at the siren. (Probably cost us top spot and maybe a flag, who knows). In the video, you can make out the free kick he receives at the end of the game, but the file corrupts before he kicks it.

It was the final score of the game, and all other player scores are allocated correctly, with only 2 Rushed behinds for Hawthorn.

It's also mentioned in The Age the next day -




Apologies, but I am at the mercy of the footage available. However Brereton definitely kicked 2 points that day, I hope I have satisfactorily shown that.

Summary -

1987 Rnd 18 WC v Haw - Dermott Brereton plus 1 behind, Rushed for Hawthorn minus 1 behind.

 

[stemline]

1987 Rnd 1 Carl v Haw

For Hawthorn -

All references for this game have Peter Russo kicking no behinds, Tony Symonds kicking no behinds, and 5 Rushed for Hawthorn.

Per below video Russo kicks 2 behinds (Hawthorn's 10th and 12th) and Tony Symonds kicks 1 (Hawthorn's 17th). All other players scores align, with 2 Rushed behinds for Hawthorn.

For Carlton -

All references have Fraser Murphy kicking no behinds, and 4 Rushed for Carlton.

Per below video, Murphy kicks 1 behind (Carlton's 12th). All other players scores align, with 3 Rushed for Carlton.



Summary -

1987 Rnd 01 Carl v Haw - Peter Russo (Haw) plus 2 behinds, Tony Symonds (Haw) plus 1 behind, Fraser Murphy (Carl) plus 1 behind, Rushed for Hawthorn minus 3 behinds, Rushed for Carlton minus 1 behind.

 

[stemline]

1987 Rnd 06 Fitz v Haw - Score Correction

All references have Fitzroy's quarter-time score as 4.4 (28).

Correct score for Fitzroy at quarter-time was 4.2 (26).

In the 2nd qtr Fitzroy added 2 goals 5 behinds to reach their recorded half-time score of 6.7 (43).

All player scores align.



I don't have access to the Herald Sun but The Age and the next week's Footy Record both had it wrong. It's kinda hard to imagine how that happens... human error i guess, but was only one human responsible for recording the scores for every publication? I dug out my old scrapbook that I used to scribble scores in as a kid while listening on the radio... I had it as 4.2! So anyway...

Summary -

1987 Rnd 06 Fitz v Haw - Correct Fitzroy's Quarter-Time score from 4.4 (28) to 4.2 (26). All other qxq scores remain the same.

 

[stemline]

1987 Rnd 12 Bris v Haw - Score Correction

Very similar to above...

All references have Brisbane's 3QT score as 9.2 (56).

Correct score for Brisbane at three quarter-time was 9.3 (57).

Brisbane kicked 1 behind in each quarter of this game.

All player scores align.



Again, The Age and Footy Record have it incorrect.

Summary -

1987 Rnd 12 Bris v Haw - Correct Brisbane's Three Quarter-Time score from 9.2 (56) to 9.3 (57). All other qxq scores remain the same.

 

[rbartlett]

Summary: Footscray behind scorers from Rd 11 1975, which are missing from AFLTables, and Aust. Football are below.

P Featherby 1 behind
L Sandilands 3 behinds
D Collins 2 behinds
A Gallagher 1 behind
G Dempsey 2 behinds
K Templeton 2 behinds
T Wheeler 1 behind.
Rushed 1

Oliver G *Paul*

 

[Oliver G]

Summary: Footscray behind scorers from Rd 11 1975, which are missing from AFLTables, and Aust. Football are below.

P Featherby 1 behind
L Sandilands 3 behinds
D Collins 2 behinds
A Gallagher 1 behind
G Dempsey 2 behinds
K Templeton 2 behinds
T Wheeler 1 behind.
Rushed 1

Oliver G *Paul*

Thanks Rhett, AF has been updated.

 

[rbartlett]

Hi all.
I have just received 7 separate emails from Stephen R and Col H, regarding all the changes we have requested on this thread.
He has investigated every single one of our summary suggestions from Page 108 post #2678 on March 5 2021 - up to Page 133 post #3319 on Jan 25th 2024) so a might fine effort by Stephen. And everyone here obviously.

According to SR about 95%-98% of changes have been accepted.

Because he has literally made comment about every change suggestion - Im trying to think of best way to do this.
How about I simply list any change that HE/COL DO NOT AGREE WITH.

All other changes from post #2678 to #3319 that I dont mention are therefore accepted as a change.
I assume that as we have been posting these along Oliver G and to a lesser extent *Paul* have been making the changes (ie: spot check page 108 and see if there changes have been reflected).

Is everyone okay if I do that process - I'll only post anything that AFL don't agree with regarding our summary suggestions since #2678. (obviously its going to take me a few days to work through his emails)

 

[Oliver G]

Because he has literally made comment about every change suggestion - Im trying to think of best way to do this.
How about I simply list any change that HE/COL DO NOT AGREE WITH.

I agree I think that's the best way, I've kept notes for all the changes we've made on AF from those "summary" posts so it should be easy to rectify any that need to be reversed.