Makybe Diva vs Kingston Town

[Deej]

Took the liberty of cut'n'paste from another horseracing forum. People (including Freedman) have been saying MD is better than KT and so a comparison seems to be necessary to bring to ground all this hysterical nonsense.

Kingston Town 41 starts 30 wins 5 seconds 2 thirds
Makybe Diva 36 starts 15 wins 4 seconds 3 thirds

1000/1100 meters no starts for either of them.

1200 meters : Kingston Town
unpl Cant 1250 2yo hcp 48kg
1st RHil 1200 2yo hcp 48kg
1st RHil 1200 2yo hcp 52.5kg
1st WFM 1200 3yo hcp 55kg
1st Rand 1200 Expressway St 55.5kg
1st RHil 1200 Premiere St 58kg

Maykbe Diva
4th Benalla 1200 maiden 54.5kg

1400 meters :Kingston town
1st RHil 1500 Peter Pan St 53kg
1st RHil 1500 Heritage St 54kg
1st WFM 1400 Warwick St 57kg
1st WFM 1400 Warwick St 58kg
1st WFM 1400 Warwick St 58kg

Maykybe Diva
8th Caul 1400 open hcp 55.5kg
4th Caul 1400 Welter 58.5kg
5th Flem 1400 Chester Manifold St 59.5
4th Caul 1400 Memsie St 55.5kg
7th Caul 1400 C F Orr St 55.5kg
1st Caul 1400 Memsie St 55.5kg

1600 meters : Kingston Town
3rd Caul 1600 Caulfield Guines 55.5kg
1st Rand 1600 George Main St 58.5kg
1st Rand 1600 George Main St 58.5kg

Makybe Diva
1st Wang 1600 maiden 55kg
1st Sale 1700 class 1 55kg
6th Flem 1600 Auckalnd RC hcp 56.5 kg
4th Mval 1600 Stocks St 55.5kg
3rd Caul 1600 Carlyon Cup 56.5kg
2nd Mval 1600 Feehan St 55.5kg
2nd Mval 1600 Feehan St 55.5kg

1800 meters : Kingston Town
1st RHil 1850 Gloaming St 53
1st Rand 1800 Chelmsford St 57
1st Rand 1800 Chelmsford St 59kg
4th Rand 1800 Chelmsford St 59kg
2nd Rhill 1750 Hill St 59kg
!st Ascot 1800 Western Mail Classic 58.5kg

Makybe Diva
2nd Caul 1800 St George St 55.5 kg

2000 meters : Kingston Town
1st Rand 2000 Spring Champion St 55.5kg
1st RHil 2000 Rosehill Guineas 54kg
1st EFM 2200 Grand Prix St 58kg
2nd Caul 2000 Caulfield St 57kg
1st Mval 2050 Cox Plate 57kg
1st Caul 2000 Caulfield St 59kg
1st Mval 2050 Cox Plate 59kg
2nd Flem 2000 Mackinnon St 58.5kg
1st Caul 2000 Caulfield St 59kg
1st Mval 2050 Cox plate 59kg

Makybe Diva
1st Ball 2000 class 3 54.5kg
1st Flem 2000 mares hcp 52kg
1st Werr 2000 Werribee Cup 51.5kg
4th Flem 2000 Turnbull St 56.5kg
6th Flem 2000 Australian Cup 55.5kg
3rd Rhil 2000 Ranvet St 55.5kg
7th Flem 2000 Turnbull St 56.5kg
1st Flem 2000 Australian Cup
7th Japan 2000 WFA 59kg
1st Flem 2000 Turnbull St 56.5kg
1st Mval 2040 W S Cox plate 55.5kg

2400 meters : Kingston Town
4th Caul 2400 Caulfield Cup 48.5kg (3yo)
2nd Flem 2500 Dictoria Derby 55.5kg
1st Rhil 2400 Tancred St 52kg
1st Rand 2400 AJC Derby 55.5kg
1st EFM 2400 QLD Derby 55.5kg
1st Rhil 2400 STC Cup 57kg
3rd Caul 2400 Caulfield Cup 60kg
1st Rhil 2400 STC Cup 59kg

Makybe Diva
1st Flem 2500 Queen Elizabeth St 52kg
4th Caul 2400 Caulfield Cup 51.5kg
3rd Rhil 2400 BMW ST 55.5kg
2nd Caul 2400 Caulfield Cup 55.5kg
1st Rhil 2400 BMW St 55.5kg

3200 meters : Kingston Town
1st Rand 3200 Sydney Cup 52.5kg (3yo)
20th Flem 3200 Melbourne Cup 60.5kg
2nd Flem 3200 Melbourne Cup 59kg

Makybe Diva
1st Flem 3200 Melbourne Cup 51kg
1st Rand 3200 Sydney Cup 55.5kg
1st Flem 3200 Melbourne Cup 55.5kg
7th Japan 3200 WFA Cup 56kg
1st Flem 3200 Melbourne Cup 58kg

Hey, it's clear now, Freedman and all the muppets must've been referring to her being better over 3200m! All makes sense now....

 

[CURVE]

Kingston Town was very heavily weighted (handicapped) for it's Melbourne Cup runs, because he was already the best known, and best performed horse of it's era. If he had the weight of Makybe Diva, even this year (58Kgs), I'm sure he could have won at least one Melbourne Cup. It's the only blot on Kingston Town's amazing record. For me Kingston Town will always be the best horse I've seen.

 

[manmountain]

Kingston Town was very heavily weighted (handicapped) for it's Melbourne Cup runs, because he was already the best known, and best performed horse of it's era. If he had the weight of Makybe Diva, even this year (58Kgs), I'm sure he could have won at least one Melbourne Cup.

Kingston Town was weighted the same as Makybe Diva - 2.5kg's over weight-for-age (58kg was WFA for KT, and 55.5kg was WFA for MD). Throw in the 1kg allowance for the safety vest, which wasn't around when KT ran in the Cup, and MD actually carried more over WFA than KT.

If you want to compare mares and horses/geldings, then a straight weights comparison is always going to favour the males. Those stats probably make Kingston Town a better horse, but the argument about weights is nonsense.

 

[Deej]

but the argument about weights is nonsense.

No it's not, it's completely valid. The WFA scale is based on opinions so who says that is right?

Look if you want to know who is a better horse at a certain distance, give them level weights and let them go head to head. Mare colt gelding filly who gives a rats, if the mare can't win at level weights she aint as good it's that simple.

 

[Tim56]

Kingston Town was, quite simply, a superior racehorse.

 

[knowledgeable fan]

u are dreaming!!! didnt u hear what boss said mon nite before the melb cup. when the diva runs the diva wins! if kingston town was in that race on tues, it would have finished similar to eye popper and vinnie roe. im saying this though having never seen kingston town so i could be wrong. lets face it tho, makybe diva is the greatest of all time. 3 melb cups in a row! 3!!! that just doesnt happen

 

[cats56]

After 40 years of invovement in racing there is no doubt Makybe Diva would pick Kingston Town up and carry him in a staying race. She raced against a far superior era of horses and won 3 Melb. Cups. Kingston Town couldn't win one! Might & Power was also a superior stayer than Kingston Town.

 

[Deej]

So what, Desert Orchid would've picked up Kingston Town and carried him in the Aintree Grand National over 7200m........BIG WOOPIDEE DOO DA.........at 1600m Kingston Town would've carried Desert Orchid, Makybe Diva, Might&Power AND Vinnie Roe and still given them windburn with one leg tied to his tail.

And what sort of horses do we breed in Australia?

Milers and sprinters.

Which means?

More depth in sprints and miles. Gotta be better than average to even get a look in.

Makybe Diva is not even aussie bred, she's a northern hemisphere bred horse. In other words she's bred to STAY like 75% of their stock is. (and about 1.5% of ours)

Now, connect the dots and work out what that all means.

 

[Deej]

Cats56, let me ask you something. Lets say Vinnie Roe had've been bought by Paul Makin as a yearling and brought out to Australia with the express intention of winning a melbourne cup. He thrives and stays sound, and becomes the great Vinnie Roe that we all know about now. Even better, because he wouldn't have had to travel for the cup, nor suffer the crushing internationals handicaps.

Now, my question is, and i'm assuming they would've been as kind to an aussie Vinnie as they were to MD in her cup handicapping, my question is do you think Makybe Diva still would've won 3 cups? Or do you think Vinnie might have 1 or 2 or maybe even 3 in his cupboard instead?

 

[Angus1]

Thanks for bringing those Stas up Deej. A lot of people have probably forgotton just how good Kingston Town really was. Unfortunately some people give the Melbourne Cup such a high status they seem to forget that most races in Australia are under 2500 meters.
The Cox Plate has always been a superior race to the Melbourne Cup with regards to the talent of horses that enter. A look at past winners and place getters will confirm this if people are unaware. It's always been said that the Cox Plate is for purists and the Melbourne Cup is for the people. A lot of Melbourne Cup winners don't have all that great a record. Actually i would say most of them.

Even just looking at the number of wins Kingston Town had
30 wins from 41 starts. Thats just awesome.

Makybe Diva has 15 wins from 36 starts and 6 of those were this year. A year where there is a real lack of quality horses going around. (No Elvis this year).

The Diva is a great stayer no question about it but Kingston Town is the better horse overall as the records show.

 

[blqld]

But was there a better sprinter than manikato?

Does the Diva's efforts over the distances, measure up to 5 william reeds?

 

[Deej]

But was there a better sprinter than manikato?

Does the Diva's efforts over the distances, measure up to 5 william reeds?

5 william reeds in a country that predominately breeds sprinters and milers.

Against 3 cups in a country that has pretty much sh#t quality stayers. And the decent overseas visitors are crippled by weights and travel.

Interesting comparison, I am interested in what doyen cat56 says about this.

 

[blqld]

Infact - based on today's ratings - the man would have won 21 G1's

Amongst his wins are

5 william reeds
4 futurities
blue diamond
golden slipper
caulfield guineas
a george ryder
and the old batc rothmans

 

[blqld]

And he came back from a heart attck and bleeding to win at g1.

 

[Angus1]

The King and the Man.
2 outstanding horses.

 

[blqld]

The King and the Man.
2 outstanding horses.

Great video as well.

 

[Deej]

Finally some people with both a sense of perspective and a memory that runs beyond 2003.

Hurrah!

 

[Angus1]

Finally some people with both a sense of perspective and a memory that runs beyond 2003.

Hurrah!

I've followed horse racing for more then 20 years and I remember the great ones. I just don't think the quality of horses is all that good this year.
I would back Better Loosen Up, Might And Power, Octaganol, Northerly, Elvsteom, Kingston Town and Mahogany all in a 2000 meter race to beat Makybe Diva.

In other words if any of the above horse were in this years Cox Plate i think they would win.

 

[Deej]

I've followed horse racing for more then 20 years and I remember the great ones. I just don't think the quality of horses is all that good this year.
I would back Better Loosen Up, Might And Power, Octaganol, Northerly, Elvsteom, Kingston Town and Mahogany all in a 2000 meter race to beat Makybe Diva.

In other words if any of the above horse were in this years Cox Plate i think they would win.

Mahogony? Elvis? Not sure, for those two it would depend greatly on the tempo of the race. Octagonal too, not sure. No probs the others though, agree totally.

 

[CURVE]

Great video as well.

I quite enjoyed that video as well. I'm not a big fan of racing, but I was a huge fan of Kingston Town growing up. Probably what turned me off horse racing a little, I couldn't find a race horse to follow that was as good as Kingston Town. I liked Northerly, but I'm still looking.

 

[Angus1]

Mahogony? Elvis? Not sure, for those two it would depend greatly on the tempo of the race. Octagonal too, not sure. No probs the others though, agree totally.

Elvis has beaten Diva quiet a few times and did so again over 1800 in Febuary this year. Elvis is a better horse then Diva with the 3200 the exception.
Mahogany won over many distances and Greg Hall says it's the best horse he's ridden. Mahogany had injury problems and was unable to continue in middle distance races but was able to come back and win some quality sprints even though he wasn't a sprinter.

 

[blqld]

I suggest they start with a look at Dulcify in the 1979 Cox Plate when he blew Manikato and the rest of the field away by 7 lengths. Now that was a win to remember.

 

[bresker]

Elvis has beaten Diva quiet a few times and did so again over 1800 in Febuary this year. Elvis is a better horse then Diva with the 3200 the exception.

Erm, Caulfield Cup 2004?

Australian Cup, 2005?

 

[Angus1]

I suggest they start with a look at Dulcify in the 1979 Cox Plate when he blew Manikato and the rest of the field away by 7 lengths. Now that was a win to remember.

Hell i totally forgot about Dulcify.
Now there was a champion. Cut down in his prime. Hell i bet there are a few other greats that have beem overlooked as well.

 

[Angus1]

Erm, Caulfield Cup 2004?

Australian Cup, 2005?

Elvis won Caulfield Cup 2004 and Diva won Aust. Cup 2005 .
What's your point?