Malthouse or Dimma?

[CoggaRules]

#standbydimma

 

[blaisee]

Malthouse ?

Might as well say we should have got Sheedy.

Both are way passed it, the only difference beween the two is that Malthouse is a way way better political animal, his record is actually very ho hum. No AFL coach in hitsory has been given more opportunities to win a premiership than Malthouse.

Interestingly he is positioning himself perfectly, again, to have a very comfortable 10 year window to succeed. He does it every time and Carlton are ripe for the picking on this one.

Good luck to them.

DImma will end up having a statue made of him, right next to Jack Dyer.

 

[TheOutsider74]

Malthouse ?

Might as well say we should have got Sheedy.

Both are way passed it, the only difference beween the two is that Malthouse is a way way better political animal, his record is actually very ho hum. No AFL coach in hitsory has been given more opportunities to win a premiership than Malthouse.

Interestingly he is positioning himself perfectly, again, to have a very comfortable 10 year window to succeed. He does it every time and Carlton are ripe for the picking on this one.

Good luck to them.

DImma will end up having a statue made of him, right next to Jack Dyer.

I guess we'll see if Malthouse is passed it. I was talking about two years ago. Ridiculous to compare Sheedyto Malthouse in 2011. He had just taken Collingwoodd to back-to-back grand finals. Don't see how you could say he was passed it then. "His record is actually very ho hum"- two premierships at West Coast, four Grand Finals at Collinwood in 10 years. Rated as one of the two best coaches Leigh Matthews has seen in the last 40 years. Yep, ho hum.

 

[Cotcho]

In Dimma we trust

 

[tigerfan1961]

I agree that Benny and Dimma have done an amazing job. I love Dimma as a bloke, like most people. He is obviously improving as a coach in all areas. I guess my point is that Malthouse, as Leigh stated in his book, is one of the best two coaches of the last 40 years. Two years ago, he still had five or six years of good service left in him. Heaps of time to get us to the pinnacle. He has proven time and again he can do what's needed. I just think we with him at the helm, we may have had a better chance of snagging what we all want.

Do not agree at all. Malthouse has coached three sides to a flag. With WCE, he seriously had just about a state side at his disposal, and it would have been hard not to win a few with that list!
With the Pies, he had THE best admin and recruiters surrounding him, and this built the list that got the ultimate prize (just, mind you). He is a good coach, do not get me wrong, but he is way overrated IMO.

 

[TheOutsider74]

Do not agree at all. Malthouse has coached three sides to a flag. With WCE, he seriously had just about a state side at his disposal, and it would have been hard not to win a few with that list!
With the Pies, he had THE best admin and recruiters surrounding him, and this built the list that got the ultimate prize (just, mind you). He is a good coach, do not get me wrong, but he is way overrated IMO.

Three teams? I don't know how you can say he is overrated. Every coach needs decent players and good admin. Are you saying Dimma would be a great coach with crap players and a shoddy admin? Are you also saying Leigh Matthews doesn't know what he is talking about?

 

[tigerfan1961]

Three teams? I don't know how you can say he is overrated. Every coach needs decent players and good admin. Are you saying Dimma would be a great coach with crap players and a shoddy admin? Are you also saying Leigh Matthews doesn't know what he is talking about?

He has coached three premiership teams, two at WCE, one at Collingwood which he was lucky not to lose!!!
Are you saying Dimma could not have coached those WCE sides to a flag- I would say with almost 100% surety he would have. And as for coaching a side with crap players and admin, that's pretty well what he started with at RFC, the worst list in the comp at the time.
Don't care what Matthews says, in my own personal opinion, Malthouse is so overrated. A good but not great coach.

 

[WATIGE]

As long as Tigers don't do with Dimma what Bulldogs did with Malthouse?!?!?!

 

[TheOutsider74]

He has coached three premiership teams, two at WCE, one at Collingwood which he was lucky not to lose!!!
Are you saying Dimma could not have coached those WCE sides to a flag- I would say with almost 100% surety he would have. And as for coaching a side with crap players and admin, that's pretty well what he started with at RFC, the worst list in the comp at the time.
Don't care what Matthews says, in my own personal opinion, Malthouse is so overrated. A good but not great coach.

Okay, I thought you meant three different clubs. I'm not bagging Dimma. I think he has done a great job. And I think he is improving. He may well turn out to be a coaching legend. But he's not one yet. Let's see. I think by any objective measure, Malthouse is a coaching legend. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[tigerz18]

Definitely Dimma. I think people have underestimated how much of an influence Choco has been on Dimma as he has on the playing list. Dimma's coaching has improved 100% this year. If Choco can stay for a few more years, we will be celebrating a premiership sooner than we would without him. I would be very surprised if Choco doesnt have a massive say in recruitment this year.
But i digress - Dimma is the future, Malthouse is the past

 

[blaisee]

I guess we'll see if Malthouse is passed it. I was talking about two years ago. Ridiculous to compare Sheedyto Malthouse in 2011. He had just taken Collingwoodd to back-to-back grand finals. Don't see how you could say he was passed it then. "His record is actually very ho hum"- two premierships at West Coast, four Grand Finals at Collinwood in 10 years. Rated as one of the two best coaches Leigh Matthews has seen in the last 40 years. Yep, ho hum.

1 premiership in 20 years of coaching.

That's a fact.

 

[Stevi_Tigers]

dimma by a mile malthouse along with hird have the 2 most punchable heads

 

[Bojangles17]

This is Part 4 (and the final part) of my tremendously popular thread, "A Collingwood Football Club Tragedy" in the Bay 13 section. Essentially, the thread put forward the view that by shafting Malhouse for Buckley, Eddie blew apart any chance of Collingwood establishing a Geelong/Brisbane type dynasty. Part 4 below basically espouses the view that the Tiges should have jumped at the chance to get Malthouse (one of the two best coaches of the last 40 odd years according to Leigh). Have a read and feel free to comment:

Part 4

As a Tiges fan, I should be deleriously happy at what should be Collingwood supporters' fury. However, I believe that, with Eddie McGuire’s massive error of judgement, the Richmond FC may have missed a golden opportunity. An opportunity to develop a list that shows great potential, into a team that roars likes its mascot. Malthouse would have been the person to have overseen that development. What a return of the prodigal son that would have been! Of course it would have meant the ousting of Damien Hardwick, a top, top bloke by anyone’s reckoning. In general, I believe a person’s word should be honored, and I understand why the Tiger’s board honoured their allegiance to Hardwick. The Tigers have done surprisingly well this year, and a win over the Bombers this week will stand them in good stead for the finals. But doubts linger over Hardwick’s coaching ability, despite the excellent second half of the season. The question should have been asked by Benny and the boys, like McGuire should have asked with the Buckley deal, do we stick with a prior arrangement and go down with a "sinking ship"-a sinking ship in this context for Richmond meaning anything less than a grand final appearance over the next two to three years. Or do we make the very tough call and get Mick Malthouse on board. I feel a degree of hypocrisy for saying this, but the Tiges should have pounced on Mick, and cut Dimma free. A very tough, and probably unethical call, but Dimma, in his heart of hearts, would have known it was the right thing to do. Espeically when the Tiges went back to back premiers in 2015-2016. In the meantime, Collingwood would have a coach who might or might not end up being a coaching legend, while the Tiges would have one who already is.

(PS Would be very happy if Dimma makes me eat humble Buckley pie)

**** off, as if we d have that miserable campaigner back at Punt rd again, explain to me why he snubbed the 1980 premiership reunion in 2000 declaring his luuuurve for the B&W only to attend the eagles premiership reunion 12 months later and then the dogs pre lim reunion in 2005. **** right off with such offensive suggestions, he s a campaigner and deserves where he s at

 

[TheOutsider74]

**** off, as if we d have that miserable silly back at Punt rd again, explain to me why he snubbed the 1980 premiership reunion in 2000 declaring his luuuurve for the B&W only to attend the eagles premiership reunion 12 months later and then the dogs pre lim reunion in 2005. **** right off with such offensive suggestions, he s a silly and deserves where he s at

Okay, thanks for your response. Appreciate it.

 

[TheOutsider74]

1 premiership in 20 years of coaching.

That's a fact.

Four grand finals from 2000 to 2010 is also a fact. Our grand final appearances in the same period?

 

[tigers_of_old_08]

As long as Tigers don't do with Dimma what Bulldogs did with Malthouse?!?!?!

Good point.

 

[Livonski]

Four grand finals from 2000 to 2010 is also a fact. Our grand final appearances in the same period?

And a coach who is in his current job out of spite for Collingwood.
Mark my words. He won't see out his contract, and it will be for health reasons. He is psychotic in the box these days, can't control himself and it's all because of a deep, deep fear of failure. He's totally motivated for the wrong reasons.
Hardwick, on the other hand is a man of character, motivated to build and create a winning culture that will form a platform on which to build a dynasty. This is how Geelong did it, remember that.

 

[turtle27]

Four grand finals from 2000 to 2010 is also a fact. Our grand final appearances in the same period?

Stupid reply, that's got nothing to do with Dimma. Tell us al how many Grand Final appearances the coaching legend in Malthouse had with the Dogs?

 

[juss]

Malthouse is the most overrated coach in the game. No one had coached more years than him without a flag before he won it with Collingwood recently, and his poor coaching in 2011 GF cost Collingwood a flag. A simple move of Tarrant to Hawkins might have won it for them that day.

 

[tigerfan11]

This is Part 4 (and the final part) of my tremendously popular thread, "A Collingwood Football Club Tragedy" in the Bay 13 section. Essentially, the thread put forward the view that by shafting Malhouse for Buckley, Eddie blew apart any chance of Collingwood establishing a Geelong/Brisbane type dynasty. Part 4 below basically espouses the view that the Tiges should have jumped at the chance to get Malthouse (one of the two best coaches of the last 40 odd years according to Leigh). Have a read and feel free to comment:

Part 4

As a Tiges fan, I should be deleriously happy at what should be Collingwood supporters' fury. However, I believe that, with Eddie McGuire’s massive error of judgement, the Richmond FC may have missed a golden opportunity. An opportunity to develop a list that shows great potential, into a team that roars likes its mascot. Malthouse would have been the person to have overseen that development. What a return of the prodigal son that would have been! Of course it would have meant the ousting of Damien Hardwick, a top, top bloke by anyone’s reckoning. In general, I believe a person’s word should be honored, and I understand why the Tiger’s board honoured their allegiance to Hardwick. The Tigers have done surprisingly well this year, and a win over the Bombers this week will stand them in good stead for the finals. But doubts linger over Hardwick’s coaching ability, despite the excellent second half of the season. The question should have been asked by Benny and the boys, like McGuire should have asked with the Buckley deal, do we stick with a prior arrangement and go down with a "sinking ship"-a sinking ship in this context for Richmond meaning anything less than a grand final appearance over the next two to three years. Or do we make the very tough call and get Mick Malthouse on board. I feel a degree of hypocrisy for saying this, but the Tiges should have pounced on Mick, and cut Dimma free. A very tough, and probably unethical call, but Dimma, in his heart of hearts, would have known it was the right thing to do. Espeically when the Tiges went back to back premiers in 2015-2016. In the meantime, Collingwood would have a coach who might or might not end up being a coaching legend, while the Tiges would have one who already is.

(PS Would be very happy if Dimma makes me eat humble Buckley pie)

#whateverittakes

 

[Bojangles17]

Okay, thanks for your response. Appreciate it.

#mypleasure

 

[ReaperX]

Let me tell you all a short story that sums up this debate.

At the end of 2004, Hawthorn and Richmond were the bottom two teams of the competition, both having just won the 4 games for the season, and both in the market for a new coach for the start of the 2005 season.

Hawthorn chose the relatively unknown Port Adelaide assistant coach Alastair Clarkson to lead their rebuilding phase, after just coming from a premiership winning side, they made the judgement that he had the tools to rebuild Hawthorn's list and take them back to the top of the food chain, while also having the freshness of youth (in coaching terms) and the ability to bring the successful structures from a well drilled coaching team at Port Adelaide.

Richmond chose to go with the experienced and highly rated Terry Wallace, who (while never having won a premiership) had a proven track record of turning basket case teams into very good and competitive teams.

In other terms, Hawthorn took a risk on an untried senior coach, and Richmond went with the less riskier option of an experienced "name" coach.

The corresponding results of the two clubs in the 2005 season:

Hawthorn - 14th, 5 wins 17 losses
Richmond - 12th, 10 wins 12 losses

After year one, clearly the Tigers looked like having made the better choice. Onto 2006...

Hawthorn - 11th, 9 wins 13 losses
Richmond - 9th (lol), 11 wins 11 losses

So clearly after two years of Clarkson and Wallace respectively, both teams were making pretty decent progress. But just HOW was this progress being made? This is the key, and also the reasoning for what happens next in 2007...

Hawthorn - 5th, 13 wins 9 losses, qualified for a Semi Final.
Richmond - 16th, 3 wins 1 draw 18 losses

So what happened? Why did Hawthorn continue to move upwards and into the finals, but Richmond fell so drastically back down? The answer is simple... "name" coaches don't sign to develop teams, they sign for the here and now. Richmond's improvement in those first 2 years wasn't real, it was simply a coach who was getting the best out of the list that he had, while having NFI about actually rebuilding the damn thing. Hawthorn on the other hand, took the hit of pain in 2005 and 2006, but showed ACTUAL improvement, due to the fact that the wins were starting to come from their kids and the building of their team, not just sucking the remaining life out of a dead list.

In 2008, the following happened:

Hawthorn - 2nd, 17 wins 5 losses, won the premiership.
Richmond - 9th, 11 wins 11 losses

A fair improvement from 2007 for the Tigers, but once again it wasn't real, it was a dead list that was fighting to stay mid-table, but that never had a real future. Meanwhile Hawthorn finish Top 2, continue along their path of improvement, and with a bit of luck they jagged a premiership. The key here though, is that Hawthorn weren't building for this premiership, they were building for sustained finals success for the period of 2010-2014. This premiership was really a bonus.

And this theory (about both teams) was backed up in 2009:

Hawthorn - 9th, 9 wins 13 losses, and a TERRIBLE hangover.
Richmond - 15th, 5 wins 1 draw 16 losses, and FINALLY the sacking of Terry Wallace.

Now while some would argue that Hawthorn's drop was more significant than Richmond's, the situation was simply that the Hawks peaked too early, and the pressure of being the reigning premiers was not something they were ready for yet. They would later go on to prove this in the coming seasons.

In Richmond's case, we had sucked the list completely dry, and kept trying to stop gap it. But enough was enough, and so after 4 wasted years, we went and jagged an assistant coach from the premiership winning Hawthorn coaching team of 2008 (does this sound familiar? if not read the first few paragraphs of this post)

Now, Richmond's next 4 seasons are as follows:

2010 - 15th, 6 wins 16 losses
2011 - 12th, 8 wins 1 draw 13 losses
2012 - 12th, 10 wins 1 draw 11 losses
2013 - 5th, 15 wins 7 losses

Does that type of progress look familiar? Are we all catching on now?

Coincidently, Hawthorn's last 4 seasons (i.e the timeframe they were building for when they started their rebuild), they have had the following results:

2010 - 7th, 12 wins 1 draw 9 losses, knocked out first week of finals
2011 - 3rd, 18 wins 4 losses, 3 point preliminary final loss to the Pies.
2012 - 1st, 17 wins 5 losses, played in a Grand Final (the one they were ACTUALLY building for from 2005) but lost by 10 points to the Swans.
2013 - 1st, 19 wins 3 losses, yet to be determined how they will go, but a raging premiership favourites.
2014 - Hasn't started, but regardless of what happens in the 2013 finals series, will be a contender again.

Hawthorn's 2010-2014 is what Richmond are hoping will be for them in 2014-2018.

Now obviously there are variables that come into play that can derail plans, but we are following the Hawthorn model pretty closely, and ultimately if our 2015, 2016, and 2017 years produce similar results to Hawthorn's 2011, 2012, and 2013, I'd say most Richmond supporters would be pretty bloody stoked. The hope that we hold though, is that if that predicted success does start coming, that we can capitalise and jag a flag or two.

The one thing you could say the Hawks have failed at is winning that premiership between those years of 2010-2014, however with that said, and as I alluded to before, 2013 isn't done yet, and 2014 hasn't even started, so there is plenty of time for them.

As for Richmond? While it will be disappointing if we get knocked out in week one of the finals, our steady improvement is actually REAL this time, and I think we are in good shape for the future.

Which is why, imo, we made the right decision to not appoint a Malthouse or a Sheedy. As good as they are, they are NOT for us. Hardwick is the man all the way.

In summary... CARN THE TIGERS!

 

[MightyTiger]

Isn't it ironic that Essendon overlooked Dimma due to his lack of attention to detail in his presentation to them , no PowerPoint presentation . This weekend we play them before heading into finals after they have been booted out for failing to keep sufficient records of substance administration .
Attention to details muppets .

It wasn't even the fact that he didn't have a presentation, he in fact did have one, it just so happened that the laptop he had the PowerPoint presentation on decided not to turn on at the time of the interview.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

In Dimma we trust

 

[TheOutsider74]

Malthouse is the most overrated coach in the game. No one had coached more years than him without a flag before he won it with Collingwood recently, and his poor coaching in 2011 GF cost Collingwood a flag. A simple move of Tarrant to Hawkins might have won it for them that day.

Amazing. So are you saying that you wouldn't rate the coach if Richmond had reached four grand finals in the 2000s? Nonsense. Buckley cost them the 2011 GF, not Malthouse.