Mandatory Vaccinations And Medical Exemptions

[Goosecat]

As the world slowly grinds towards coerced/mandatory vaccinations, I thought it relevant to have some discussion on the small percentage of the population for whom such vaccinations are genuinely medically dangerous.
Both myself and my daughter have written vaccination "exemptions" from doctors stating it is medically dangerous for us to have any vaccinations at all. There is a family history unfortunately that included rare blood clotting reaction to vaccination that caused my daughter to have a stroke, ordered Health department isolation for family after "full blown" development of Measles after Vaccination and anaphylaxis response. Basically our immune systems seem to have very unpredictable responses.
Before anyone jumps to conclusions I should add that I am Pro vaccination and we had our daughter vaccinated knowing there was some risk, a decision I will never get over.
I am well aware of vaccinations role through history and now. What does concern me however is the growing calls to effectively force people to have their bodies injected with mandated substances by denying them rights to areas of society unless they agree to be jabbed. I really feel this is a slippery slope for society. What might the next mandated/coerced substances be?
How do people think these individuals for whom it is genuinely dangerous can be accommodated, assuming the world continues further down a coerced/mandated path?

 

[Goosecat]

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QANTAS makes vaccination MANDATORY or no job.
https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-update-qantas-to-make-vaccinations...
They do at least touch on the medical exemption issue.
One wonders who will be the first legal test case.

"Qantas has announced it will make coronavirus vaccinations mandatory for staff.
The airline said it will require all employees in the Qantas Group to be vaccinated "as part of the national carrier's commitment to safety".
The Qantas group includes the subsidiaries Jetstar, QantasLink, Sunstate Airlines and Qantas Freight.
Qantas said it is giving frontline staff until November 15 to have the jabs, with other workers given until next March.

Qantas will make it compulsory for all staff to be vaccinated. (Qantas)
"Frontline employees – including cabin crew, pilots and airport workers – will need to be fully vaccinated by 15 November 2021 and the remainder of employees by 31 March 2022," the airline said in a statement.
"There will be exemptions for those who are unable for documented medical reasons to be vaccinated, which is expected to be very rare."
The airline said it consulted with Qantas and Jetstar staff on the issue in a survey.
The announcement comes a fortnight after Qantas announced about 2500 frontline workers will be temporarily stood down amid ongoing COVID-19 outbreaks around the country.
Earlier this month, SPC became the first non-health care company in Australia to make the COVID-19 jabs compulsory for workers and visitors to its sites.
The fruit and vegetable giant said all staff must be fully vaccinated by the end of November to gain entry to any of its company locations.
Last week, the FairWork Ombudsman updated its advice on whether businesses were able to mandate vaccinations among staff.
Australia's workplace watchdog had previously released guidance saying that businesses were "overwhelmingly" unable to require staff to be vaccinated.

However, it now says businesses in key industries such as border control, quarantine, healthcare and aged care organisations are "more likely" to be allowed to mandate jabs for employees."​

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[jle101]

It's hard to think of a more fundamental right than the right to determine what happens to one's own body. Forcing someone to undergo medical treatment against their will violates this most basic of rights.

 

[faible]

"There will be exemptions for those who are unable for documented medical reasons to be vaccinated, which is expected to be very rare."

I suppose this allows some leeway for those who legitimately can't get vaccinated, as opposed to won't.

There's some precedent for limiting access to things for those who choose not to vaccinate, as we see with the childcare subsidy. But mandating vaccination is a weird grey area, I'm generally opposed to mandating medical stuff for an individual, but at the same time, there's a collective good that requires everyone doing things. We've seen that with smallpox and polio for example.

 

[HairyO]

It's hard to think of a more fundamental right than the right to determine what happens to one's own body. Forcing someone to undergo medical treatment against their will violates this most basic of rights.

Its hard to think of a more fundamental right for individuals in a society than to be safe.

Forcing people to have to associate with selfish people willing to let others die violates their most basic of rights.

So if you dont want to vaccinate, dont. But dont live anywhere near those who do. Go start your own society away from people who want to be safe.

 

[jle101]

Its hard to think of a more fundamental right for individuals in a society than to be safe.

Forcing people to have to associate with selfish people willing to let others die violates their most basic of rights.

So if you dont want to vaccinate, dont. But dont live anywhere near those who do. Go start your own society away from people who want to be safe.

Indeed, it's a tricky grey area. I understand that the whole idea of denying unvaccinated people hospital access, or keeping un-vax'd mothers with young children confined to their homes for 23 hours a day, whilst denying children their right to an education with punitive measures to compel parents to vaccinate their children, such as keeping them out of school, is something that is being done in the name of 'care', I just feel dismantling all human rights charters around the world which ensure all medical procedures and therapies must have fully informed and freely given consent to the greatest extent possible, is a slippery slope. Also, the premise of dealing with selfish people who are willing to let others die, by letting them die, isn't the answer we should be looking for.

Btw, may I ask what makes you think I am unvaccinated?

 

[HairyO]

Indeed, it's a tricky grey area. I understand that the whole idea of denying unvaccinated people hospital access, or keeping un-vax'd mothers with young children confined to their homes for 23 hours a day, whilst denying children their right to an education with punitive measures to compel parents to vaccinate their children, such as keeping them out of school, is something that is being done in the name of 'care', I just feel dismantling all human rights charters around the world which ensure all medical procedures and therapies must have fully informed and freely given consent to the greatest extent possible, is a slippery slope. Also, the premise of dealing with selfish people who are willing to let others die, by letting them die, isn't the answer we should be looking for.

Btw, may I ask what makes you think I am unvaccinated?

The "you" is those who are not vaccinated in your scenario.

A very small % of people have severe allergies to vaccines. They would be exempted. Anyone choosing to opt out for religious or other nutjob reasons can go start their own society and return after a few months begging to be vaccinated.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Whilst there are exceptions think of it this way doesn't a business or whatever have the right to want patrons to be safe? It is such a grey area, ad honestly there's no "right" answer. I've known people (like the OP) who have genuine medical issues. I am happy Qantas has come out today and mandated vaccinations by mid November though purely because in that business it should be.

 

[jle101]

The "you" is those who are not vaccinated in your scenario.

I believe it was you who invented that scenario.

Anyway, the point still stands, destroying people's livelihoods & denying them the right to have elective procedures that they are guaranteed to courtesy of Medicare, in the name of vague, confusing & ever-changing restriction roadmaps renders hundreds of years worth human rights advancements a thing of the past in one fell swoop. We cannot afford to allow Medicare to morph into a discriminatory healthcare system, not to mention that compulsory vaccination policies violate rights such as freedom of expression, choice, thought, conscience, religion, travel and belief.

I get people are tired of lockdown & rule-breakers making this whole deal go on for longer than needed, but we can do better than "go & start your own society".

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I believe it was you who invented that scenario.

Anyway, the point still stands, destroying people's livelihoods & denying them the right to have elective procedures that they are guaranteed to courtesy of Medicare, in the name of vague, confusing & ever-changing restriction roadmaps renders hundreds of years worth human rights advancements a thing of the past in one fell swoop. We cannot afford to allow Medicare to morph into a discriminatory healthcare system, not to mention that compulsory vaccination policies violate rights such as freedom of expression, choice, thought, conscience, religion, travel and belief.

I get people are tired of lockdown & rule-breakers making this whole deal go on for longer than needed, but we can do better than "go & start your own society".

So you are happy to put the doctor performing the procedure and the nurses, and everyone else to be at risk..if the surgery is "elective" doctors should absolutely have the right to say no to unvaccinated unless it's an absolute valid medical exemption.

 

[jle101]

So you are happy to put the doctor performing the procedure and the nurses, and everyone else to be at risk..if the surgery is "elective" doctors should absolutely have the right to say no to unvaccinated unless it's an absolute valid medical exemption.

No, not at all. I wouldn't want to force any medical professional into risking their health. However, if you have a vaccine that doesn't block infection (which is the case with covid vaccines), then that same risk will still exist in every other facet of daily life, no? Elective surgery can range from things like a facelift, to treating hernias, to spinal surgery. In which case I would have though our current triage system would manage said situations in the same way it has in the past.

 

[Inspecta Gadget]

My body, my choice only applies to abortions right?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

No, not at all. I wouldn't want to force any medical professional into risking their health. However, if you have a vaccine that doesn't block infection (which is the case with covid vaccines), then that same risk will still exist in every other facet of daily life, no? Elective surgery can range from things like a facelift, to treating hernias, to spinal surgery. In which case I would have though our current triage system would manage said situations in the same way it has in the past.

The vaccine does help whether it's 100% effective is moot, any prevention to a degree is a good thing. Doctors have it hard enough let alone having to treat unvaccinated people putting the whole department and hospital at risk. They have the right to say no. Flat out I'd have zero issue if that was mandated and if that is harsh well poor diadems go and live in a society that doesn't mandate it.

 

[faible]

My body, my choice only applies to abortions right?

What about the types that are opposed to mandatory vaccination but also oppose abortion? What a quandry.

 

[projectv]

My body, my choice only applies to abortions right?

A person getting an abortion doesn't impact anyone else except for the mother and the fetus.

Not getting vaccinated impacts not only the person, but everyone they interact with.

Your analogy is stupid.

 

[jle101]

The vaccine does help whether it's 100% effective is moot, any prevention to a degree is a good thing. Doctors have it hard enough let alone having to treat unvaccinated people putting the whole department and hospital at risk. They have the right to say no. Flat out I'd have zero issue if that was mandated and if that is harsh well poor diadems go and live in a society that doesn't mandate it.

Again, I really do feel we can do better than this "us/them" society being forwarded here, which inevitably will create far more problems than it solves. We all know the concept of drawing chalk lines on the ground & starting a "vaccine-free" society is as preposterous as it is impossible. I would also argue that the degree of effectiveness of a vaccine is not by any means moot when recipients of said vaccine are still dying & can become a breeding ground for covid mutations. Viruses mutate & pathogens evolve all the time.

 

[Inspecta Gadget]

A person getting an abortion doesn't impact anyone else except for the mother and the fetus.

Not getting vaccinated impacts not only the person, but everyone they interact with.

Your analogy is stupid.

It's not though is it.

I'm not against the vaccine, having already had my first dose, just think it's a very murky area forcing people to forego individual liberties for "the greater good"

 

[projectv]

It's not though is it.

I'm not against the vaccine, having already had my first dose, just think it's a very murky area forcing people to forego individual liberties for "the greater good"

How do you feel about children being immunised against Polio, Rubella and Measles, before they can attend school? This has been happening for decades.

The individual liberties argument is not valid here. Your individual liberties end when they impact mine and others liberties. There are some things we do just so we can all live together in a community. Getting vaccinated is one of those things, whether we like it or not.

 

[Virgin Dog]

As the world slowly grinds towards coerced/mandatory vaccinations, I thought it relevant to have some discussion on the small percentage of the population for whom such vaccinations are genuinely medically dangerous.
Both myself and my daughter have written vaccination "exemptions" from doctors stating it is medically dangerous for us to have any vaccinations at all. There is a family history unfortunately that included rare blood clotting reaction to vaccination that caused my daughter to have a stroke, ordered Health department isolation for family after "full blown" development of Measles after Vaccination and anaphylaxis response. Basically our immune systems seem to have very unpredictable responses.
Before anyone jumps to conclusions I should add that I am Pro vaccination and we had our daughter vaccinated knowing there was some risk, a decision I will never get over.
I am well aware of vaccinations role through history and now. What does concern me however is the growing calls to effectively force people to have their bodies injected with mandated substances by denying them rights to areas of society unless they agree to be jabbed. I really feel this is a slippery slope for society. What might the next mandated/coerced substances be?
How do people think these individuals for whom it is genuinely dangerous can be accommodated, assuming the world continues further down a coerced/mandated path?

I don't think it'll ever be necessary to "force" people like yourself to become vaccinated. The whole point of community vaccination is that you have the majority vaccinated, which reduces the ability for the virus to spread. It doesn't need 100% vaccination rate

 

[jle101]

How do you feel about children being immunised against Polio, Rubella and Measles, before they can attend school? This has been happening for decades.

In regards to those vaccines, the difference I can see is that they are fully approved by the TGA, whereas all five covid vaccines currently have provisional status, & elsewhere in the world have only been approved for use under EUA exemption.

 

[Inspecta Gadget]

How do you feel about children being immunised against Polio, Rubella and Measles, before they can attend school? This has been happening for decades.

The individual liberties argument is not valid here. Your individual liberties end when they impact mine and others liberties. There are some things we do just so we can all live together in a community. Getting vaccinated is one of those things, whether we like it or not.

I'm all for childhood immunisation. Having said that, none of those vaccines were rushed out in the last year, which is where a lot of the push back from the anti-vaxxers is coming from, and they're all TGA approved. None of them are mandatory either, although I think we're heading that way, but they're not going to stop you getting on a flight or going to the footy if you skipped your polio shots as a child.

 

[projectv]

I'm all for childhood immunisation. Having said that, none of those vaccines were rushed out in the last year, which is where a lot of the push back from the anti-vaxxers is coming from, and they're all TGA approved. None of them are mandatory either, although I think we're heading that way, but they're not going to stop you getting on a flight or going to the footy if you skipped your polio shots as a child.

I think we are headed that way too.

I am not for mandatory vaccination, as in, mandated by the government. However I am all for businesses and groups to exercise their own rights when it comes to how they operate their business. Run a business and want to make proof of vaccination mandatory? Go for it, that's your right. The opposite of that is also fine with me. People can choose to not attend businesses if they don't want to. That is what a free market looks like.

 

[GWT6]

I believe it was you who invented that scenario.

Anyway, the point still stands, destroying people's livelihoods & denying them the right to have elective procedures that they are guaranteed to courtesy of Medicare, in the name of vague, confusing & ever-changing restriction roadmaps renders hundreds of years worth human rights advancements a thing of the past in one fell swoop. We cannot afford to allow Medicare to morph into a discriminatory healthcare system, not to mention that compulsory vaccination policies violate rights such as freedom of expression, choice, thought, conscience, religion, travel and belief.

I get people are tired of lockdown & rule-breakers making this whole deal go on for longer than needed, but we can do better than "go & start your own society".

Medicare currently does - my father in law was told by doctors that they would not perform by-pass surgery on him unless he quit smoking, so he stopped smoking and never took it up again. Seemed fair.

Freedom of choice does not mean freedom from consequences. If people choose to not be part of society they don't necessarily choose which bits they can come back in on.

 

[jle101]

Sadly, the way things are headed, we may be staring at a government enforced compulsory vaccination mandate whether we like it or not, as part of a four-stage modus operandi.

Phase 1: Voluntary

Phase 2: Incentives (lottery tickets, free beer, free donuts, etc.)

Phase 3: Private sector enforcements (where we are now)

Phase 4: Government sector enforcements (criminal fines/jail time)

At the very best it makes being unvaccinated extremely inconvenient, which in itself is a passive way to force compliance. At the worst it's total authoritarianism which counteracts the individual liberties which are meant to be granted to democratic societies.

 

[jle101]

Medicare currently does - my father in law was told by doctors that they would not perform by-pass surgery on him unless he quit smoking, so he stopped smoking and never took it up again. Seemed fair.

Freedom of choice does not mean freedom from consequences. If people choose to not be part of society they don't necessarily choose which bits they can come back in on.

Yes, definitely. There is a huge difference between this subject & whether or not a smoker, who has made a conscious choice for a good part of their life to smoke whilst being fully aware of the dangers, is entitled to the same treatment as a non-smoker.

The thing is, those who are hesitant to get the jab, such as the overwhelming majority of our First Nation populace, aren't simply choosing to not be part of society & aren't choosing which bits they can come back in on.