Match day experience - an open letter

[Vankri]

Isn't the Holden ad a new gimmick they brought in this season? It doesn't work (I certainly don't cheer on demand) so fair to say it's going to get dropped pretty soon since chances are it's making more harm than good for the Holden brand.

As for the gambling ads, I'm not sure which ones you're talking about, but I don't think it's a Collingwood thing either and I would suggest you are way more subject to receive gambling advertisement in front of your TV than at the MCG (and in both instances have the chance to tell kids not to bother with it).

Don't get me wrong, I would love to never see the dance troup again and for our cheersquad section to be full and passionate again, but not renewing your membership because of gambling ads at the MCG and the risk of epilepsy on a new gimmick brought by the club sounds completely over the top. Maybe you lost the passion and trying to post-rationalise it somehow?

 

[vjknight]

just on the lack of atmosphere thing.......

since the 80's & 90's when i attended hundreds of games, the biggest change over crowds is membership. back in my day memberships & reserved seats numbered in the low thousands, and while occupying some of the better viewing areas, still left plenty of great viewing spots for those willing to get to the game early enough to snag them - whether thats at the G or the old suburban grounds. nowadays the membership & other reserved seats dominate all the great viewing areas, leaving the 'decide on the day and pay $20' people nothing but seats high up in the cold stands or standing room (which is very limited).

combined with the reserved seating people NOT being able to take the 'once a year' mate (often opposition fan) to the footy means a lot of the crowd noise and chatter is gone, dominated purely by goals and major pieces of play, rather than arguments (good and bad) and other general banter. the crowds are segregated in the main.

so many parts of the G that were historically free to sit in now cost top dollar or are empty, with authorities refusing access otherwise.

this is not a whack at membership, as its become vital for the high cost of football, but it has changed the crowd make up. crowds are certainly more members and less cash paying these days. mates cant decide on the day to go, and get a good spot anymore. it all has to be pre-planned, maybe months in advance. IMO this is having an effect.

 

[Hva sher a]

Isn't the Holden ad a new gimmick they brought in this season? It doesn't work (I certainly don't cheer on demand) so fair to say it's going to get dropped pretty soon since chances are it's making more harm than good for the Holden brand.

As for the gambling ads, I'm not sure which ones you're talking about, but I don't think it's a Collingwood thing either and I would suggest you are way more subject to receive gambling advertisement in front of your TV than at the MCG (and in both instances have the chance to tell kids not to bother with it).

Don't get me wrong, I would love to never see the dance troup again and for our cheersquad section to be full and passionate again, but not renewing your membership because of gambling ads at the MCG and the risk of epilepsy on a new gimmick brought by the club sounds completely over the top. Maybe you lost the passion and trying to post-rationalise it somehow?

IMO the gambling ads, dancing troupe etc are more annoyances that ADD to the list of grievances. However, the central core of the issue I think is the lack of atmosphere. Lack of crowds, bad timeslots etc are factors and I don't know the answers but not having been regularly to a game for a few years and then going to a local match I was amazed at how empty an AFL match felt. It was actually boring (and we won).
It's ironic that in an effort to attract more families, to provide them with a greater entertainment experience, the AFL (incl clubs) have forgotten the prime reason people go to the footy.
BTW I applaud you for persevering and I suspect I will start going again but the days of religiously going to a match per week armed with my seasons ticket are probably gone. I'll end up being a more casual attendee (whilst still loving the Pies)

 

[Throw]

Isn't the Holden ad a new gimmick they brought in this season? It doesn't work (I certainly don't cheer on demand) so fair to say it's going to get dropped pretty soon since chances are it's making more harm than good for the Holden brand.

As for the gambling ads, I'm not sure which ones you're talking about, but I don't think it's a Collingwood thing either and I would suggest you are way more subject to receive gambling advertisement in front of your TV than at the MCG (and in both instances have the chance to tell kids not to bother with it).

Don't get me wrong, I would love to never see the dance troup again and for our cheersquad section to be full and passionate again, but not renewing your membership because of gambling ads at the MCG and the risk of epilepsy on a new gimmick brought by the club sounds completely over the top. Maybe you lost the passion and trying to post-rationalise it somehow?

I agree - I drive a Holden which has been a great car, but I reckon if I were subjected to that ad weekly I'd have to rethink my relationship with that brand too. I drew attention to the ad itself, which while outrageous, is more of a symbol of the relationship between the club and the supporters. To me it's a massive "**** you - we own you - look at this logo and do as it says" to anyone who bothered to turn up.

The troupe is lame, and in my view a big mistake, but it's harmless.

As for losing my passion, it's possible. When I'm sitting at the footy being yelled at by the holden logo telling me what to do, I did find myself wondering to myself "what am I doing here?" I still love the game in general, and attend NTFL and NEAFL games regularly. But even if i had lost my passion, why now? I was there when we were a joke in the 90s. I remember copping shit in prep for being a Collingwood supporter. Carlton supporting kids in my class would play "fig footy", kicking figs off the fig tree but Collingwood supporters weren't allowed to play. I was devastated after the 2002 GF. elated in 2010. Why would I jump off now? what's changed? If I were to assess it dispassionately, it would be the feeling that I'm being treated like a chump by the club which has been an institution in my family for generations. I don't blame the club. It's the individuals running it, who don't seem to be accountable to anyone. Who some would even say are doing a good job.

I only suggest they consider the long term best interests of the club as important as they consider the budget bottom line year to year. And try not to **** it up. It's a great game and a great club which should sell itself. Just get out of the way.

 

[jjsmitty8]

I personally don't feel that there is really a "match day experience" anymore. Really, the dance troupe is pretty laughable. I'm sure they're brilliant people and great dancers, but it really doesn't work. The applaud once they've finished is half assed and reluctant.

The Holden "Get Loud" gauge is shit. Really, it just seems ridiculous when they play crowd noise through the speaker, and then it stops and it's dead quiet.

I don't know what they need to do or what they're allowed to do. But surely there's better options.

 

[Walking Cake]

Great thread, and having been a longtime reader of bigfooty the reason for me to join up so I could comment on this.

I took my best mate to the Adelaide game. He is not a follower of footy, and rarely ever goes to games. The only times he attends is with me, cos he knows I love the game. When the Holden rev up appeared during the game I was embarrassed. Really embarrassed. I didn't want my mate thinking this is what going to an afl game has become. It was so loud and obtrusive. And the fake crowd noise it blasts out only has the opposite effect to its intent.

I have found myself going to more and more vfl games, and I love it. Especially at Vic park. It's great seeing the up and coming players, being able to get close to the huddle, and reminiscing about how the afl games used to be played there. And of course, no advertising (and no admission fee!)

 

[HappyRed]

Every man is his own worst nightmare, Willpower is important factor to having a healthy life. Practice it. Capitalism has already set in.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Great thread, and having been a longtime reader of bigfooty the reason for me to join up so I could comment on this.

Welcome!

 

[76woodenspooners]

I'm an interstate member who spends a lot of time overseas, so it's rare I get to go to a game, and even rarer that I get to go to home games.

The gambling thing had always been contentious. I got the impression that something changed with that recently? It's been a while since I've seen a gambling ad on the Collingwood website, but I have noticed gambling help ads on there.

On the dance troupe thing (which I haven't seen, I'm just going by the reports) is that I think it's intended to be something to keep the kids entertained when nothing is happening. To the OP ( Throw ), what ages are your niece and nephew? What did they think of the dance troupe?

The kiss cam (which I have seen live) i thought was excruciating.

I can appreciate the efforts of the club to try to come up with space fillers ... and Collingwood is a very broad church and it's difficult to do things to make everyone happy. I see the challenge is to either come up with things that do genuinely have universal appeal (eg: nobody hates Auskick) or to come up with things that target particular demographics in a way that doesn't alienate others.

As with many things, it's not just about the idea, it's also about the execution.

 

[Markfs]

I agree with all of this. The dance troupe is lame, kind of cringeworthy but ultimately harmless. The kiss cam is an imposition and one I don't like. I would add the organ music with that American baseball theme. Those things bug me but aren't dealbreakers as far as attending the game is concerned. the gambling advertising and holden rev up however cross a line with me, where it starts becoming insulting to the person who made the effort to attend the game, and I find myself losing sympathy for an organisation, which seems to see us not as members or supporters, but consumers to be exploited.

Excellent but isnt that true of any professional sport?

 

[Markfs]

just on the lack of atmosphere thing.......

combined with the reserved seating people NOT being able to take the 'once a year' mate (often opposition fan) to the footy means a lot of the crowd noise and chatter is gone, dominated purely by goals and major pieces of play, rather than arguments (good and bad) and other general banter. the crowds are segregated in the main.

this is not a whack at membership, as its become vital for the high cost of football, but it has changed the crowd make up. crowds are certainly more members and less cash paying these days. mates cant decide on the day to go, and get a good spot anymore. it all has to be pre-planned, maybe months in advance. IMO this is having an effect.

There are other factors
1. the lack of alcohol - people used to get drunk more at the footy
2. sitting rather than standing
3. a family day instead of a day for the boys to go out
4. the strict guidelines of what can be shouted at the footy.
5. segregation of footy fans because most fans for the home team are members and few sit in the outer - which reduces the banter as you said

 

[Markfs]

Every man is his own worst nightmare, Willpower is important factor to having a healthy life. Practice it. Capitalism has already set in.

yep capitalism will corrupt anything. It distils everything in life into an opportunity to buy and sell. Its important to remain a member but resist all the crap. Write to the club and tell them that you hate it.

 

[76woodenspooners]

yep capitalism will corrupt anything. It distils everything in life into an opportunity to buy and sell. Its important to remain a member but resist all the crap. Write to the club and tell them that you hate it.

Collingwood is not technically a capitalist institution.

It's a not-for-profit that is owned by the members, it doesn't pay any dividends.

The members collectively make the club accountable for three things (in order of priority) ...

(1) Sustainability (ie: being around forever)

(2) Competing for Premierships

(3) Providing for the entertainment of members and fans

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

My daughter (13) has just come back from Japan and she has had the opportunity to go to one of their baseball games.

She quite rightly said that it shat all over our game-day experience. (I may be paraphrasing )

Most of the novelty was, of course, the way the Japanese crowd were willing to participate rather than to be forced into 'enjoyment'. They had separate chants for each of the batters as they came up. There were the floggers/clappers which were used to clap along with songs rather than just at a goal. They sat in semi-segregated areas so that the team colors formed great patchworks across the stadium etc etc.

Seems to me that the powers that be have indeed siphoned off some of the other codes' match-day experiences and tried to retro-fit it to AFL. Just doesn't work. For example, the soccer chant is a wonderful tool to accompany the sense of tense anticipation between one of the few (if any!) goals in a match. We have somewhere between 10-15 on average per match, and quarters instead of halves, so the sense of anticipation comes and goes more quickly than breaking into a long convoluted chant.

The dance troupe is obviously Gridiron-inspired, but we're not Americans. Australians tend to be more pragmatic, less extroverted and more inclined to push the attention back to the action than that around it. Same with things like kiss-cam etc. Aussie crowds love to make noise, and they know when/where to make it.

Do you think there's a causal link between 'speeding the game up' and it becoming less dramatic? I can't tell yet... It seems that we've sacrificed some of the rules of the game in order to create a spectacle, yet this has made the spectacle itself suffer.

I have no problem with the corporatization of sport - any club from grass roots to national needs money behind it - but I can definitely back up the OP by hating on any gambling or alcohol-related advertising. Love a beer at the footy, have never gambled. I won't begrudge anyone who wants to do one or both. But neither should be promoted and especially where there's a high exposure to kids.

I have stopped going for the moment only because my weekend commitments are overflowing, but looking forward to going back in a couple of weeks. I hope I'm not disappointed.

BTW Eddie did say on MMM the other morning that we should look forward to some announcements re: scheduling and bad timing. He sounded very positive and I am optimistic FOX/AFL have worked out a better way to handle the scheduling debacle.

 

[Markfs]

Collingwood is not technically a capitalist institution.

It's a not-for-profit that is owned by the members, it doesn't pay any dividends.

The members collectively make the club accountable for three things (in order of priority) ...

I'm aware of the membership based structure of the club...but AFL is a corporate entity....run for money and based on the advertising dollar. In the end, it is the need to make money to support the premiership aspirations of the clubs, which determines the clubs decisions. Money determines success and that money is got from sponsorship and advertising. It's a business.

 

[Markfs]

The dance troup seems to get everyone upset. Everyone seems to get upset about footy becoming like gridiron. However, the fact is that gridiron needs dance troups and AFL doesnt. Gridiron matches are 1 hour of action (I think) over a period of 3 to 4 hours (I think). I watched a superbowl once and I couldnt believe that most of the time was spent standing around. THey need dancing girls. I actually preferred the dancing girls to the game. There are some gorgeous babes in the troups overthere. In contrast, AFL games dont have all that wasted space. You get a break at half time but I need to get a pie. I dont want to spend my time looking at a dance troup. I said months back that the girls really need to get naked for the whole thing to work. I just dont see the point of them in their current form in the Australian context.

 

[Markfs]

BTW Eddie did say on MMM the other morning that we should look forward to some announcements re: scheduling and bad timing. He sounded very positive and I am optimistic FOX/AFL have worked out a better way to handle the scheduling debacle.

Just another example of FOX indirectly running the AFL. It's ironic to me that News Corporation is dictating the future of AFL clubs, when in reality it would prefer Rugby League to take over the footy environment. I say that because News Corporation owns 75% of the Brisbane Broncos and much of the other privatised Rugby League clubs. They wanted to run the whole show some years back with Super League stuff. They are happy to have the AFL do the basic administration for them, but the AFL is increasing being run by the broadcast contract, and Foxtel is increasingly becoming the senior partner as free to air TV becomes a thing of the dark ages. I wouldnt say that Foxtel is actively seeking the demise of AFL, as its a good money spinner for them, but I would suggest that Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch would be far happier if Rugby League was the major sport in this country.

 

[dansa]

Can someone tag LukeM on this thread so he can relay the thoughts of the supporters back to the club. Sorry I don't know how to tag a poster.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Can someone tag LukeM on this thread so he can relay the thoughts of the supporters back to the club.

lukem

Sorry I don't know how to tag a poster.

Type their username with an '@' symbol in front, so it looks like @dansa and it renders like dansa

 

[Gone Critical]

Interesting thread but I have a different perspective. I have been going to the footy since the late 60's when I was a kid. In my teen years, the seventies, I played footy twice a weekend, Sat morning and Sun arvo and often came to Vic Park for Collingwood games. I still go to most matches now and hate it when work or other events get in the way of that. In short I am a long time addict.

I reckon I love it more than ever now. I only stopped playing superrules when I hit 50 yo and still miss not doing that. The skills on display nowadays are just sublime. The game gets into a contested mass only because the players these days can work in such a confined area and fire the ball around like a pinball. I am in awe of the game they play. The competition is more even, there are not the blowout non competitive games like there were back in the 70s, 80s and 90s

I wasnt keen on the passing of the VFL I knew for selfish reasons. I loved Sat arvo footy in the suburban grounds. It was basic. But we moved on , we became national. The code grew because it had to to meet the challenges of a new world. Soccer , basketball etc all became accessible. Became real competitors. The game now exists on a much bigger scale because it has to. I don't go for any entertainment at the footy but I just ignore it. I have seen the Holden meter you talk about but didnt even really know who the sponsor of it was. It doesn't register with me. Think I can allay your fears re the epilepsy. Definitely no risk there. Gambling adds are a community problem, I think it would be great if the AFL took a bigger lead but I cant be too critical. I like a punt myself so it doesnt worry me as much. The AFL have been good on some social change areas and on others I reckon they have gone too far e.g he illicit drugs policy is way over the top tough on the players

But if I transported you back to the 90's when you were a kid or the 70's where I saw a lot growing up you may well be shocked at the behaviour. "The shelias by and large would be elsewhere. The wogs and ****ters would have to put up with whatever they copped." The abuse would be much more feral, a dry area was where your old man might go and have a lie down behind the stands if he had a few too many. Intolerance would rule. There would also be warmth in the crowd. In standing room your old man would push you down the front and the masses would part so you could go there and see properly. Somebody elses mother, the few who were there, would have no qualms about ticking you off if you misbehaved.

So I think you are right there are some things not done so well but some things are much better. As a diehard I reckon I could go back to the old days and love it but I would probably also be shocked at what went on back them looking with my modern eyes. Footy replay was a never miss as was WOS. Garry Wilson was one of the all time greats of the 70s, I saw him a handful of times and rarely on TV because Fitzroy got virtually no air time. Today we are spoiled. I see the entire careers of players who ply their trade mainly thousands of miles away.We get to see far more footy.

I love footy. Its great now, was great then. However I always reckon we remember mainly the great bits of the past. Plus it was always a bit of a miracle looking through the eyes of a kid. Put your kids eyes on again and you may regain your wonder. Its still a bloody good thing, its just different because we and our world are different

 

[Throw]

Do you think there's a causal link between 'speeding the game up' and it becoming less dramatic? I can't tell yet... It seems that we've sacrificed some of the rules of the game in order to create a spectacle, yet this has made the spectacle itself suffer.

I have no problem with the corporatization of sport - any club from grass roots to national needs money behind it - but I can definitely back up the OP by hating on any gambling or alcohol-related advertising. Love a beer at the footy, have never gambled. I won't begrudge anyone who wants to do one or both. But neither should be promoted and especially where there's a high exposure to kids....

BTW Eddie did say on MMM the other morning that we should look forward to some announcements re: scheduling and bad timing. He sounded very positive and I am optimistic FOX/AFL have worked out a better way to handle the scheduling debacle.

I'm not great at this editing stuff- someone in an earlier post asked the ages of my nieces and nephews. The footygoing ones range from 10-17.

My personal grievances have nothing to do with what some commentators are calling a "malaise" or "disenchantment" with the game, vaguely attributable to the scandal surrounding Essendon, arbitrary MRP decisions, or games which are bad spectacles. Those things would not stop me rocking up, and in some ways things like that contribute to the wider "meta" discussion of footy on Monday mornings in the office or on bigfooty all year round. It's a very interesting part of the game which is why the media has been running with those issues. I have no problem with the AFL product itself.

If I switch off AFL level footy entirely it will be because of the game's relationship with gambling. I don't think the game relies on gambling revenue to survive, and as long as that's the case I think it should get out of it entirely. I reckon had I never left Melbourne I wouldn't feel so strongly, but I used to work in an Aboriginal domestic violence legal service and too many of my former Aboriginal female clients have had their heads bashed in during fights arising from problem gambling. I'm also sick of seeing welfare money poured into pokies and card games. Make no mistake- the Collingwood Football Club and AFL are supporting an industry that exploits vulnerable people, and increases rates of domestic violence and child neglect particularly in Aboriginal communuties. No white ribbon - Straya says no - Closing the Gap - welcome to country Dreamtime round gesture will change that. I pay on results, and the hypocrisy in this area is outrageous and frankly insulting to people who know better. If you want to take gambling money then flog that product on match day where there are kids around, you wear the odium for that decision, and lose my financial support.

For some reason I expect the AFL to make decisions the way it does, being run as a business. However anything that calls itself a "club" should act in the best interests of members, not shareholders. This club sees its members and supporters as an asset; like the Westpac centre or the black and white stripe trademark. It says differently, but look what it does, not what it says. No club with genuine respect for its members would treat them as this one does on gameday. Think about it next time you're at the game and the Holden logo starts telling you what to do.

 

[morgoth]

I used to go to every Vic game and one or two interstate games. Have not been to a game in the last 2 years and can't see myself bothering. Its just too hard to arrange anymore. It used to be either a night game or a 2.10 day game. Now it is all over the place. To add to it:

1. I refuse to go to Eithad for any Pies home game, home games should be played at a sides home ground.
2. The club is greedy, it constantly bombards me with e-mails trying to get my to buy stuff, tries to get me to buy $200 raffle tickets and then sell tickets for them.
3. I have a young family, it is unfeasbile to take a 5 year old to a night (anytime) or twilight game on a Sunday.
4. The sterilasation of the crowd. Don't stand, your flag can only be a certain size, loud crappy noise from speakers and on it goes.
5. Cost, food prices are just ridiculous. Of course its the cost of the facilities only being used a couple of times a week. Yeah and the caterer wants his profit, the MCG wants its cut and of course the AFL is taking a cut. There is the reason prices are high.
6. Taxing supporters of big clubs. I don't hand over my money (1 legends, 2 kids and a pet ) to support other clubs. Why should I bother, other clubs don't.
7. The media. Footy used to be fun now its a business, the media never let up, everything is over analysed and often over sensationalised.
8. The AFL, an utterly corrupt organisation that does not run the comp on the basis of fairness but on making money. Where do you start with these shisters? The draw (how the hell are we playing sides for the first time after we have played others twice?), the MRP (Steele gets 3, Conca gets 2), COLA, allowing lesser sides like the Dogs to be raided by expansion clubs and then taxing us to even it up, WTF???, the selling of games interstate by some sides, the ripping off of the small clubs via Eithad. Christ, I could go on for ages.

Anyway, I love the Pies, but hate the AFL.

 

[Big Bryza]

The rev up after a goal is a complete rip-off from Adelaide oval, they put up on their scoreboard after a goal a call for the 19th man, (crowd) to get involved.
Having been there earlier this year against the Crows, it's much better than anything we do; then again original is often the best.
Off to Subi for the first time be interested to see what they do/how their crowd behaves

PS: I hate gambling, not enough to stop me from going to the footy, (I just complain about it).

They do it at Metricon Stadium as well. Seems like its becoming 'normal'.

 

[Big Bryza]

Good thread. Match day is full of attempts to 'entertain' the crowd at any possible quiet moment, as if we'll get bored and leave or something. Drives me nuts. What happened to having a chat to your friends and the people around you about the previous 30 mins of hopefully exciting footy?

It's like they think we're not there for the footy or something.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

I wonder why no one has thought about playing games on a Saturday afternoon?
I reckon it would take off or is it just another one of my crazy ideas?