Message to Irish: Learn the Rules of Engagement!

[BK Eaglesfan]

Absolutely agree Roundhouse, great thread.

There are certain things going on in the series you could almost call 'cultural differences' in the way the two teams react to different circumstances.

Unless these differences are sorted prior to a series and there is better understanding between the two teams, the series likely is doomed. It just can't be good for either code to have this bickering after each and every series.

 

[D Mitchell]

The list wasn't meant to be patronising, it is just a list of things that will cause the Aussies to "go on with it"

To their credit, the producers didn't show the incidents yet all through the quarter, Quartermain was continually referring to players going down behind play. The fight showed O'Keefe swinging punches. At least swinging punches deserves a red card and ordinarily blokes being put down off the ball would too.

I don't see your list as patronising, it's fantasy. There's no particular honour in the level of violence, it's determined by the level of intervention and punishment. There's little intervention and no punishment in International Rules for AFL players. That's why the level of violence is far greater than in the game at home.

 

[Roundhouse]

To their credit, the producers didn't show the incidents yet all through the quarter, Quartermain was continually referring to players going down behind play. The fight showed O'Keefe swinging punches. At least swinging punches deserves a red card and ordinarily blokes being put down off the ball would too.

I don't see your list as patronising, it's fantasy. There's no particular honour in the level of violence, it's determined by the level of intervention and punishment. There's little intervention and no punishment in International Rules for AFL players. That's why the level of violence is far greater than in the game at home.

I would argue again that there is an understood honour system for Aussie rules players that determines the level of "violence" in response to certain situations.

The IR has a red card + on the spot penalty system, meaning there is more intervention and a greater punishment for discretions on the field than there is in AFL. I don't understand how you can continue to blame the umpires, and the rules.

Even though an AFL player could be fined thousands of dollars, and lose thousands more in match payments, they would still react the same way to a knee in the back in an AFL match, as they did in IR. The propblem lies in the Irish not understanding that certain acts are intolerable for AFL players, and vice versa. The punishment levels only come into it as an afterthought.

 

[sum0005]

Watch this

Just shows how rough this game is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGREZw4Sr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvd6bcZeKAk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEWVajd7hUI


Now if the Irish cant handle that, then they are wimps...

 

[red+black]

Re: Watch this

haven't caught on to the youtube tags eh?

 

[BATTERY]

Re: Watch this

Just shows how rough this game is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGREZw4Sr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvd6bcZeKAk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEWVajd7hUI


Now if the Irish cant handle that, then they are wimps...

 

[D Mitchell]

The IR has a red card + on the spot penalty system, meaning there is more intervention and a greater punishment for discretions on the field than there is in AFL. I don't understand how you can continue to blame the umpires, and the rules.

Even though an AFL player could be fined thousands of dollars, and lose thousands more in match payments, they would still react the same way to a knee in the back in an AFL match, as they did in IR.

In arguably the most violent passage of play to date, with the possible exception of the second quarter in Melbourne 2005, the red card wasn't used. There's nothing wrong with the rules, it's the refusal of the umpire/referee to enforce them that's the problem.

If the Irish players had been protected by the umpire/ref, maybe all those horrible, nasty things they are supposed to have done which are so offensive wouldn't have happened. AFL players regularly get kneed in the back in pack marks, in spoils and in packs. "Accidently" falling on to the player who marks a ball in a contested mark happens in almost every contest. Yet how many fights or mellees do you see ?

 

[Roundhouse]

In arguably the most violent passage of play to date, with the possible exception of the second quarter in Melbourne 2005, the red card wasn't used. There's nothing wrong with the rules, it's the refusal of the umpire/referee to enforce them that's the problem.

If the Irish players had been protected by the umpire/ref, maybe all those horrible, nasty things they are supposed to have done which are so offensive wouldn't have happened. AFL players regularly get kneed in the back in pack marks, in spoils and in packs. "Accidently" falling on to the player who marks a ball in a contested mark happens in almost every contest. Yet how many fights or mellees do you see ?

See the rule about kneeing, and the appropriate way to handle being roughed up afterwards.

You will note that the Irish guy who laid the knee didn't cop a whack for it straight away. He copped a roughing up, which he didn't take in the manner the Aussies expected. A few players came in with shoulder blocks (as they would in an AFL) and Voss cannoned into the guy (pretty sure it was the same guy) whilst at the same time losing his balance and going to ground.

The first punch thrown was by the Irish guy behind Voss who landed a cheapy to the back of the head. The same guy was then pumelled by O'Keefe in retaliation.

If you read the initial post clearly you will see why the same sort of mellees don't usually happen in AFL. There are no shortage of blokes who "fly the flag" after incidents in AFL games, but blokes are usually not as quick to throw punches as the Irish were in this test. I probably overlooked the rule about punches in the initial list. That rule is, once you throw a punch you are fair game. I'll edit that in later.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Where's the rule about taking court action and police looking into it?

Plenty of cases of players getitng king hit behind the play in Aussie Rules.

 

[frankc]

Irish are sooks - pure and simple.

Let's dive into players backs, hit them behind play, kick them when they are going after the ball. All let's have a cry when a legal tackle causes an injury.

Always playing the amatuer card is crap. Over the 30 IR games played its 14 wins each with 2 draws.

Ireland if you can't stand the heat, go a make a cup of tea using a water proof tea bag.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Irish are sooks - pure and simple.

Let's dive into players backs, hit them behind play, kick them when they are going after the ball. All let's have a cry when a legal tackle causes an injury.

Always playing the amatuer card is crap. Over the 30 IR games played its 14 wins each with 2 draws.

Ireland if you can't stand the heat, go a make a cup of tea using a water proof tea bag.

Yeah we like a whinge, we,ve been watching the Aussies for years whinging about all kinds of sports so we thought we'd give it a go too

 

[noiniho]

Hey dudes,
Greetings from Ireland, firstly I must say congratulations on winning the international rules hands down, in fairness we were creamed.

I must say that I am not a Gaelic football player, in certain parts of Ireland there is a pocket where Hurling (not puking) is played and there is little or no Football, thankfully by the grace of god, I come from such a place.
So I know nothing about football, the round ball is as alien to me then it is to you guys. So I am maybe not in the best position to comment, but I think the international rules game is pretty boring and crap, but that is not the point.
Most people I have spoken too in the GAA community (away from the organised media) don’t have a problem with the match on Sunday, other then the fact we got hammered. There is a serious problem with football emerging in this country, Gaelic football has become very negative in its tactics, with more focus being placed on not letting the other team score then scoring yourself (this has been termed puke football).
This is why we are now getting exposed in international rules, the irish players are unable to sustain this approach against the rampant Aussies, so now we cant compete in defence or attack
Speaking of the fights, here we have the hypocrisy of the GAA, some of the Irish tackling was pretty bad, headbutts and stuff, that is not about any sport… if we won the fight we would have been laughing about it, because we got overpowered by the big bad professionals its all moan this and moan that.

It has been pretty much embarrassing; this series should be discontinued because,

• It is not even a real sport
• The Irish cannot compete with the aussies on any level since they got used to the round ball.
• amateurs cannot compete with professionals, (nor should they be put into a position where they are expected too)
• There seems to be irreconcilable differences between the two nations attitude to competing. (This is only breeding bad blood).

Its crap, it is boring, it is pointless, it is exposing the amateur GAA community to a world that they are a million miles away from being ready for. It is fairly embarrassing. The double standards by the media over here is shocking.....

 

[D Mitchell]

...If you read the initial post clearly you will see why the same sort of mellees don't usually happen in AFL. There are no shortage of blokes who "fly the flag" after incidents in AFL games, but blokes are usually not as quick to throw punches as the Irish were in this test.

They don't throw punches in AFL games because they'll get reported and suspended. I've watched that fight in slow motion a coupld of times now. O'Keefe was the main punch thrower.

That so called knee in the back would pass without comment in an AFL game becasue it happens all the time. The vision is so poor that you have to rely upon Quartermain's commentary. Some idiots are talking about a kick by one of the Irishmen, I think it was Shane Ryan. If you look at it, you'll see he was trying to soccer the ball and Brown tried to gather it. In AFL it'd be kicking in danger. If International Rules ahs the same law, then it should have been paid to Brown. The so called head butt wasn't caught on vision, Quartermain again, it's has turned into plural and spread to the first game or course and there they are, the ankle taps, that never happened, bobbing up, too. Why don't you sit down with your remote and have an unbiased look ? What you'll see is the Irish blokes give back as good as they get but you wont see a head butt or a kick or a knee. Keep your eye on Crowley and O'Keefe, both of whom threw and landed punches and came off sorry.

 

[King Elvis]

Yeah we like a whinge, we,ve been watching the Aussies for years whinging about all kinds of sports so we thought we'd give it a go too

About what?

Having to build a new trophy cabinet?

 

[Roundhouse]

They don't throw punches in AFL games because they'll get reported and suspended. I've watched that fight in slow motion a coupld of times now. O'Keefe was the main punch thrower.

Firstly, they do throw punches in AFL games at times when things get really heated. There were at least a dozen punches cited by the tribunal this year.

Yes, O'Keefe landed and threw the most punches...but he did not throw the first one. An Irish bloke did. He swung at Voss from behind. I'm not saying the Aussies didn't over-react, I'm saying the reaction was predictable.

 

[Grimreepah]

That so called knee in the back would pass without comment in an AFL game becasue it happens all the time.

Probably showing your lack of knowledge a bit there.

 

[Karlostj]

Probably showing your lack of knowledge a bit there.

Pretty sure that McKernon missed out on a brownlow for a lot less then that knee...

 

[D Mitchell]

...but he did not throw the first one. An Irish bloke did. He swung at Voss from behind. I'm not saying the Aussies didn't over-react, I'm saying the reaction was predictable.

I looked for the so called punch on Voss. Didn't happen. But even if it did, O'Keefe threw multiple punches at a bloke who was already down. I couldn't pick out who it was but if it was Sean Martin Lockhart, that might explain his blood nose a few minutes later.

The reason that only your 6 or so punches get to the tribunal is because that's about all there are i.e. the players know that if they throw a punch in AFL they'll get pinged. O'Keefe is ample, although by no means the only, illustration of the lack of restriction on thuggery in IR. He wouldn't dare carry on like that in club footy.

 

[D Mitchell]

Probably showing your lack of knowledge a bit there.

No, it shows I needed to look at it more closely. It looks like the ordinary land on the bloke in the spoil at ordinary speed but on slow motion, O'Mahoney seems to land on the forward with both knees. He was yellow carded so why whinge about it ?

 

[Roundhouse]

I looked for the so called punch on Voss. Didn't happen. But even if it did, O'Keefe threw multiple punches at a bloke who was already down. I couldn't pick out who it was but if it was Sean Martin Lockhart, that might explain his blood nose a few minutes later.

The reason that only your 6 or so punches get to the tribunal is because that's about all there are i.e. the players know that if they throw a punch in AFL they'll get pinged. O'Keefe is ample, although by no means the only, illustration of the lack of restriction on thuggery in IR. He wouldn't dare carry on like that in club footy.

Watch again sunshine, I just did.

The Irish bloke did throw the first punch on Voss in that mellee, and he threw it from behind while Voss was off balance. I just whatched it again in slow motion.

When O'Keefe came in the same guy shaped up to O'Keefe and again threw the first punch at O'Keefe. Then they exchanged a few swings, then Irish guy went to ground and O'Keefe kept hitting him. Barry Hall tried to get the guy as well, but another Irish guy wisely tied his arms up.

I don't see how you can blame O'Keefe when the Irish guy clearly threw the first punches in the manner he did. You are essentially blaming O'Keefe for being the better fighter, instead of the blaming the guy who started the fight. Maybe that is another difference in our respective sporting cultures, because I don't see anything at all wrong with O'Keefe hitting back in the manner he did.

 

[Roundhouse]

The problem with your arguments Mitchell, is that you think you have an understanding of both AFL and GAA. You may know Gaelic rules and culture, but your posts about the AFL tribunal where you suggest all striking is penalised, yet kneeing is ignored shows that you don't know a lot about the finer points of our rules.

The kneeing incident in the second test would have raised more than an eyebrow in an AFL match I can assure you. It was completely different from following through with a spoiling attempt, which you are claiming amounts to the same thing.

 

[Wooshavich]

No, it shows I needed to look at it more closely. It looks like the ordinary land on the bloke in the spoil at ordinary speed but on slow motion, O'Mahoney seems to land on the forward with both knees. He was yellow carded so why whinge about it ?

Mate, c'mon, no one is whinging about it. Everyone is using this incident as an example to point out the lopsided nature of your argument. Look at incidents like that one and accept that the Irish were no saints and we can move on. Your current stance, which for all intensive purposes seems to be that Irish saints were illegally monstered by those Aussie mongrels, is a joke in light of incidents such as that.

And why don't you read again the posts on this forum, and articles by your media for that matter as well, to see who is doing all the whinging.

 

[D Mitchell]

Watch again sunshine, I just did.

The Irish bloke did throw the first punch on Voss in that mellee, and he threw it from behind while Voss was off balance. I just whatched it again in slow motion.

When O'Keefe came in the same guy shaped up to O'Keefe and again threw the first punch at O'Keefe. Then they exchanged a few swings, then Irish guy went to ground and O'Keefe kept hitting him. Barry Hall tried to get the guy as well, but another Irish guy wisely tied his arms up.

I don't see how you can blame O'Keefe when the Irish guy clearly threw the first punches in the manner he did. You are essentially blaming O'Keefe for being the better fighter, instead of the blaming the guy who started the fight. Maybe that is another difference in our respective sporting cultures, because I don't see anything at all wrong with O'Keefe hitting back in the manner he did.

Apples and oranges. Who threw the first punch is your preoccupation, not mine. My thesis is that enforcement of penalty is what determines the level of violence, not rules of engagement. I use O'Keefe to illustrate. He throws punches at will in IR, he did the same in 2005, but not in AFL because he isn't penalised in IR. If he'd been red carded, as he should have, then he wouldn't have had his nose bloodied because he would have been off and subsequent nastiness wouldn't have occurred. Yellow cards are slaps across the wrist with a wet lettuce, they all take breaks anyway. Preoccupation with who threw the first punch misses the point. The Australians announced their intentions, not only through the press but through history of the games. Instead of copping it, the GAA blokes stood up to them. As to who did what to whom, that's romantic nonsense. The players will do what they can get away with and the Australians get away with murder.

If you read the post immediately above yours you'll see I've changed my mind about O'Mahoney because I looked at it in slo mo and it seems to show him landing on whoever's back with both knees. He was yellow carded for it so he was punished, if a yellow card is punishment.

Finally, to clear up a misconception, I was born and grew up in the in the western suburbs of Melbourne of mixed stock. I'm not Irish.

 

[Chewy]

After watching the first quarter of the second IR Test, it is clear to me that the Irish went about "standing up to the Aussies" in exactly the wrong manner. They broke some of the fundamental rules of engagement which all Aussie rules players grow up with, and all AFL players base their on field behaviour on.

Of course we all know them, but I will try to articulate them as best I can for our Irish friends. Help me out if I miss any.

1) Push and Shove before the bounce...
is part and parcel of the contest. You can elbow, bump, push and niggle before the bounce of any game (or at any stop play) and you are not doing anything wrong! 6 year old Auskick kids do it in our game for christ sakes. If your opponent niggles you like this and you take it as cause to go further, you will get in many a fight. Learn to live with and push back as good as you give, but if you start wrestling or throw a punch it is you who is in the wrong.

2) If you knee or hit someone who is on the ground...
you will get roughed up and abused by at least half a dozen players. If you immediately hang your head and raise your hand, as if to "Sorry I stuffed up", the roughing up may be short lived. If you try to fight back at the players roughing you up, you will be hit and all hell will break loose. This is because kneeing someone in the back or head when they are down is considered one of the most gutless acts in our code, and must be punished in some form or another on the field.

3) If you absolutely have to hit someone...
Use your fists and not your head. Headbutting is also considered one of the lowest acts in our game. This is because standing toe to toe is common, and using your head is basically taking cheap shot when it is not expected. If you headbutt someone, the other player or his teammates will remember and give you a cheap shot down the track somewhere in the name of evening up the score.

4) If you take a player out behind play...
and it is not seen, you are safe...for that game only! However, the next time you meet that player or team, you must expect a payback. Just because you shake hands after the game, it doesn't mean all is forgotten. If give a cheapshot, you will get one back sooner or later, and it won't necessarily be from the same bloke. Live with it, and try to avoid behind play incidents in the first place.

5) When the game is over...
if you are a player, you can not be seen to outwardly complain too much about the roughstuff. By all means, you can vow revenge, but complaining about the other team being too rough is not really an option. You can sort out the square-ups on the feild at a later date, so there is no need to try and gain public sympathy. In the end you will just be looked on with disdain.

*6) You can push your opponents head into the ground...
if, and only if, you have run him down in spectacular fashion and he has been pinged for holding the ball. If you push your opponents head into the ground at any other time he will fire up! It is only okay when you run down an opponent because he has tried to "take you on" and failed, and it is therefore just desserts that he gets his nosed rub in it a bit. If you fire up too much after being tackled and having your head pushed into the groung, the other bloke will fire up too, because you are not taking your medicine properly. Basically you have to cop it on the chin, and not go on with it.

Even though it is a "compromised rules" game, these rules of engagement are still in play for the Aussies. I think unless the Irish learn them, the fights in these series' will continue, and probably escalate.

Am I right in thinking that it is these unwritten rules that dictate the violence, or is just the natural human desire to beat up on Irish people that causes the Aussie boys to fire up at this time of year?

*edited in after Premiers post.

I thought your rules of engagement should also included some of the neanderthal Aussie rules of engagement with the opposite sex:

Wait until after your sixth beer before approaching any girl and only then, if she is more drunk than you are.

Do not under any circumstances be lured towards the dancefloor unless it is to stand on the perimeter with one hand locked firmly around a beer, the other hand jammed tightly in your front pocket and rating the talent with your mates, by giving a score from 1 to 10.

If any woman starts a conversation or smiles at you, this automatically means she "wants you bad". Next move is to buy her a drink, feign interest in what she is saying, all the while sneaking a look down the front of her top at her breasts. Give them a silent rating from 1 to 10, for future discussions with mates who are are standing on the other side of the bar, pulling f**k-faces and thrusting their hips and hands in an imitation of the doggy position.

The primary objective is sex. End of story. The jackpot is when she allows this to occur in the club or pub's toilets. This saves you from wasting money on cab fares and means you can rejoin your mates for a drink afterwards and give them a graphic, blow by blow description.

If the girl is unconscious drunk, or near to it, you should share with your mates. Swings and roundabouts, etc.

It is also important to film any encounter on your cell phone and then stand around with your friends, watching this repeatedly and giving the dirty biatch a score from 1 to 10.

Hopefully this helps any confused Irish people to understand the psyche of the Australian male footballer.

 

[Groater]

Greg Stafford kneed Jason blake in the back a couple of years ago fracturing a vertabrae. He is hardly held in high esteem. If you think kneeing is an acceptable and common practice in our game, then you obviously know very little about it.