You can compare any situation, club or people
Main factor with the Tigers, they stuck by Dimma, like Thompson at the Cats
Voss is only in his 2nd year
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Coach Michael Voss
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You can compare any situation, club or people
Main factor with the Tigers, they stuck by Dimma, like Thompson at the Cats
Voss is only in his 2nd year
- Sep 26, 2004
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Well then perhaps you're every bit as misguided as those at the club responsible for the mess we continue to find ourselves in.
Laying the blame solely on the senior coach is complete and utter madness.
Elmer_Hauser
Boston Celtics 18 x NBA World Champions
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I honestly think what Voss needs right now is Robert Walls in the coaches box looking over his shoulder
I want Wallsy at Training to toughen up the Boys like what he did at the Brisbane Bears (infamously)
Joking, but it does remind us all today's players would be eaten alive under the old school great coaches back in their day like Barassi, T-Shirt Tommy (Hafey), Parko, Yabby Jeans etc
And I think footy and the standard of modern day players is the poorer for it (strict passionate coaches from the school of hard knocks who train their players hard and tell them cold hard truths)
- Jun 4, 2016
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Fish did kick on - his regression has been this year. He placed quite high in the bnf last season. So immediately I know you're again writing emotionally and illogically to prove a false point.
Dow is doing more than Lucas ever has. I know of two clubs who have some interest in him once Carlton cuts bait. So wrong again there.
Players picked in the ND have skill - I'm saying they have skill but are allowed to be missing the extra intangibles required by strong clubs. People wonder why strong clubs pick rookies better than weak clubs - it's because they can extract the consistency and improvement and provide the framework for development that weak clubs cannot or don't.
You can accept whatever 'fact' you damn want. Doesn't make it true. We might win the comp next season for all you know.
What a load of dross
- Jun 4, 2016
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7 then 7 then 8 and a disastrous start to a season is not consistent improvement.
- Jun 4, 2016
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The sun is the moon because they're both in the sky
I really think it's an underrated target for AFL coaches, at least in the modern game. I think for real legacy enhancement winning premierships at 2 clubs is huge, particularly now with more teams in the competition and the equalisation of draft and salary caps. If you really want to be seen as one of, if not the GOAT coach, winning at 2 clubs is huge.
As for Hardwick to Carlton, I wouldn't be particularly interest in him in a HC role until 2025. He's clearly been burned out for a while, imo I've been noticing fraying since the covid season. 2024 I feel would be too soon and not enough time to refresh. If he has a good ~18 months off and he feels the fire again I'd be interested for 2025.
Obviously, this is all presuming Voss isn't up to it, he may well turn it around. The timing would work though with giving Voss his contract term to see what he's got.
Would want as an assistant/mentor in '24, as it isn't quite as time intensive the burn out factor won't be as strong.
Elmer_Hauser
Boston Celtics 18 x NBA World Champions
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We haven't played finals in 10 years and you think we can win the flag next year.
LMAO
6,7 and 8....hey you said you'd stick by incremental improvement your words not mine..richmond finished 12th in 2013....no way carlton would have stuck fat.
Who’s laying it solely? I never said that, I’m saying that the game plan is the major issue, that doesn’t absolve poor performance but I believe it’s the root cause of a lot of the issues
- Sep 26, 2004
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I asked you if Voss and the game plan are at fault for those specific incidents, to which you responded yes.
The players would love you - seemingly absolving them of all responsibility.
So what you’re saying is there is no correlation between game plan & how the players perform, ok then.
Funny how none of u have touched on the game plan issue but u all to a man believe Voss needs more “support” why exactly does he require “support” if what he’s doing is tactically sound & improving the players?
Obviously not all Vossy's fault, but it does seem he's tinkered with the gameplan to the detriment of results. And he seems too stubborn to change. That's just an outside observation, could be different.
There's multiple facets to being a senior coach. The "Gameplan" is not a static thing that is set in stone and cannot be changed. Identify why we're not getting the results that we're getting and go to work. Voss's strengths might not be strategic, but you can augment that with the right people around him.
Sometimes something appears broken until it doesn't. Difficult to tell if the gameplan is inherently flawed, execution is lacking or just missing a bit of tweaking to get it right.
Has he? I don't think results have changed much at all. We're still losing to the same teams that we were losing to last year. The main difference has been the order that we've played the teams in.
- Apr 4, 2018
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- Does current senior coach have enough skills/experiences/know how etc etc to be a successful long term coach for the blues? If Yes go to next question. If no remove as soon as possible and replace with someone that does.
- Does he have enough that he can proceed without needing a senior assistant? If no seek a senior assistant asap. Go to next question.
- Are any players undermining the coach? If yes identify them and have a word with them. If they continue undermining, sack/delist/trade them out asap. Go next question.
- Are there gaps in the list to have a crack at the flag? If yes fill the gaps asap. Go next question.
- Is progress being made each season based on ladder position? If yes keep doing what you are doing until 17th flag is won. If no, go next question.
- Repeat steps 1-5 above.
Whether gameplan or not is the fault of the head coach is not the point - the gameplan needs fixing. I'd also prefer to keep Voss because of his strengths as (1) a figure head respected throughout the game, (2) ability to extract effort and to (3) inspire. As long as (2) and (3) are there, then he can stay as long as we find him appropriate help with strategy and gameplan.
Who is our strategic coach?
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I also think he and the MC need to show more courage and selection integrity. The Dow mismanagement has been covered. But why did Kemp and Cincotta get canned? Just a lot of overly safe moves being made to play old guys like Ed and Hewett...despite form and team needs.
Who will help revamp our team selection?
Who is our strategic coach?
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I also think he and the MC need to show more courage and selection integrity. The Dow mismanagement has been covered. But why did Kemp and Cincotta get canned? Just a lot of overly safe moves being made to play old guys like Ed and Hewett...despite form and team needs.
Who will help revamp our team selection?
& sometimes something is broken and people can’t identify it.
What’s the measure of inherently flawed so I can then know when we get to it?
It's the way we're losing as well but results have changed.
Easily accounted for Richmond round 1 last year - draw this year
Collingwood we played twice last year lost both by less than a kick and arguably should've won - didn't get close this year
Western Bulldogs we beat by 2 goals - they easily accounted for us this year
Yes we lost to Lions last year (in Brisbane) - this year lost in melbourne (same result)
You cannot tell me we are in similar form no way the Carlton of this year could push Melbourne or collingwood to a goal.
Curious as to what people think our game plan is? My thoughts:
Predominantly, we want to control possession of the ball and deny the opposition the ability to score. We're happy to minimise our ability to score if it means denying the opposition an opportunity. We aim to take advantage of our stoppage dominance and the long targets in Mckay and Curnow to maintain and control territory.
When coming out of defence, we are extremely conservative. We recognise that going end to end through a well set up defence is difficult. Our main aim is to avoid a turnover while maximising territory. What this means in practice:
When we force a turnover, particularly in a dangerous position (i.e. the corridor), we attack, hoping to catch the opposition out of position. Attack when the risk is low and the likelihood of scoring is high.
We're happy to turn the game into a slow grind and chip away at the opposition. We don't want a fast, free-flowing game, and we don't want to win in a shootout.
Where it's going wrong:
What I don't understand:
Why, when it's a 50/50 stoppage on centre wing, we have no one inside 50? See it repeatedly where the opposition has one or two inside 50, but all our players are outside the arc, including Harry and Charlie. Are we making up for a lack of decent half-forwards? No idea what the goal is here, but I don't think I've seen it work at all.
Predominantly, we want to control possession of the ball and deny the opposition the ability to score. We're happy to minimise our ability to score if it means denying the opposition an opportunity. We aim to take advantage of our stoppage dominance and the long targets in Mckay and Curnow to maintain and control territory.
When coming out of defence, we are extremely conservative. We recognise that going end to end through a well set up defence is difficult. Our main aim is to avoid a turnover while maximising territory. What this means in practice:
- No handball receives when we have control of the footy. Even if it's Lewis Young, we prefer a kick down the line than a handball to a better user. A long kick down the line is "safer" and easier to defend than attempting to run it through a chain of handballs.
- Prefer the short kick if it's available. We'd rather maintain control through a 20m pass forward / sideways and slowly work our way down the ground.
- If no option presents, kick long down the line to Harry / Charlie. Best case scenario is a contested mark, but more realistically, it's a means for us to gain more territory. A stoppage allows us to gain more territory through our stoppage dominance. The slow buildup means that we're well-positioned to defend even if we turn it over.
When we force a turnover, particularly in a dangerous position (i.e. the corridor), we attack, hoping to catch the opposition out of position. Attack when the risk is low and the likelihood of scoring is high.
We're happy to turn the game into a slow grind and chip away at the opposition. We don't want a fast, free-flowing game, and we don't want to win in a shootout.
Where it's going wrong:
- We're not dominating clearances. We get first hands on the ball more often than not, but we cannot exit a clearance cleanly. Even when we're dominating first possessions, the quality of the opposition's clearances out of the pack is generally cleaner than ours
- Our scores from stoppages have completely dried up, particularly in the forward 50. Teams score 2-3 goals from i50 stoppages against us every week. We'd be lucky to get one. This has been a significant regression in our game over the past two years and means we're not capitalising even when we are winning the territory battle
- Teams refuse to give us the short kick from the backline. It's obvious when watching at the ground. Every team sets up an arc of players 30 metres in front of the kicker, through the corridor and around to the boundary.
- We're forced to take the kick down the line to the stalls because we're unwilling to run it through via handball. Teams know this and set up for this, often beating us either in the air (ala Moore on the weekend) or through ground-level numbers (the Crows did this particularly well).
- When we turn it over, we're not set up well to defend it. We give up the corridor too easily, and teams have no trouble finding a loose man along the boundary. Given the slow buildup and time to set up defensively, this is damning at present. Explains why Voss was so angry about it in his presser
What I don't understand:
Why, when it's a 50/50 stoppage on centre wing, we have no one inside 50? See it repeatedly where the opposition has one or two inside 50, but all our players are outside the arc, including Harry and Charlie. Are we making up for a lack of decent half-forwards? No idea what the goal is here, but I don't think I've seen it work at all.
Do you really think that 6/11 -> 7/17 -> 8/22 is increasing wins?
He was lucky to survive 2012 if you remember how we ended their season. Hell I remember us smashing them by over 100 points in 2011 and Hardwick just going "we aren't even going to bother reviewing that". One of the biggest reasons Richmond backed him in so long at first was because they wanted to stop the cycle of sacking coaches and starting from scratch all over again.
Carlton playing group not living up to expectation and playing horrible footy? I can't remember when that wasn't the norm. Rocking up to games half asleep and lacking intensity has always been the norm.
If we keep replacing the coach every time these players choke we may as well install a revolving door to the MC office. Melbourne game from last year alone the amount of 3v1's we managed to lose that game is incredible. I don't rate the list as highly as others do. Our midfield was a strength last year but the game has opened up and we aren't equipped for that. Weitering hasn't been the same since his injury last year and he is dealing with the loss of self esteem that comes from been scammed in general.
Just feels off blaming yet another coach for players not developing as we hoped and the lack of leadership among the older players. Coach can't fix issues that have persisted for decades after just walking in the door. All of the better sides have had the playing group take ownership and do their utmost all to succeed. Game plan didn't cost us finals this year and it certainly didn't cost us the games against Bulldogs and Saints where we choked in front of goal. Adelaide and Pies the players seemed half asleep until it was too late which seems to be the norm for us in make or break games too.
If we had a team full of big game players who weren't missing every 2nd kick, hack kicking under no pressure and hospital passing whenever possible I'd be more inclined to blame Voss for our poor performance. Why would Casboult be one of the best goal kickers in our side if he still played for us? Why do players skills seem to degrade over the years? Why is Pittonets field kicking ability on par with Cain Ackland? Why do we struggle to develop sides with good field kicking in general?
Things like the players trying to cheat forward when JSoS is in the ruck. That's a classic for us too. Cripps turning his back to play and taking 30 seconds to move it on, Young slipping over, Mcgovern squibbing etc
I'm not the biggest fan of Voss but we have a lot of issues to deal with first before we worry about him. Need something about the club to be consistent at least because the constant chaos is covering up a lot of other issues that need to be attended.
Fantastic distillation of the gameplan. All makes sense.
I think the difference between us and the top teams - they transition into their defensive zone easier (both quicker and with less running)...allowing them to back themselves to take risks. If those risks pay off, they cut teams up and get easy shots a goal. If the risks don't pay off they still risk being scored against, but it's not the end of the world.
Didn't we beat Richmond in a semi from ninth in 2013?
2nd time that season we came back from 6 goals down against Richmond to beat them. No coach at Carlton would survive that. We cost them top four and won the EF against them.
