Coach Michael Voss

[blue healer]

Interesting reading the number of posters here who are suddenly laying the blame on our players.

Where were you all two years ago when the howling for Teague's blood began and the players were lauded for mutineering against their coach?

This list is far better than Teague's, is unhindered by Covid sanctions and has a fully functional development team. It has six current and former AA's, two Coleman medalists, the Brownlow medalist and is finally at the age profile that we've been seeking for the last eight years. I'd go so far as to say it is the best balanced list we've had for twenty five years and yet....eight and a half wins in the last twenty two matches.

If it was all the coach's fault two years ago why is it the fault of the players now?

I've said that I don't want to sack the coach, as I said two years ago, I'm sick of that sh*t. But in finally deciding to stick fat with a coach, have we picked the right one?

Interesting times ahead.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

Well Teague sure as hell wasn't the right one so I'm very happy with his dismissal.

 

[blue healer]

Well Teague sure as hell wasn't the right one so I'm very happy with his dismissal.

Leaving out the dead cat bounce last year are you happy with what's happened since?

 

[BM123]

Curious as to what people think our game plan is? My thoughts:

Predominantly, we want to control possession of the ball and deny the opposition the ability to score. We're happy to minimise our ability to score if it means denying the opposition an opportunity. We aim to take advantage of our stoppage dominance and the long targets in Mckay and Curnow to maintain and control territory.

When coming out of defence, we are extremely conservative. We recognise that going end to end through a well set up defence is difficult. Our main aim is to avoid a turnover while maximising territory. What this means in practice:

• No handball receives when we have control of the footy. Even if it's Lewis Young, we prefer a kick down the line than a handball to a better user. A long kick down the line is "safer" and easier to defend than attempting to run it through a chain of handballs.
• Prefer the short kick if it's available. We'd rather maintain control through a 20m pass forward / sideways and slowly work our way down the ground.
• If no option presents, kick long down the line to Harry / Charlie. Best case scenario is a contested mark, but more realistically, it's a means for us to gain more territory. A stoppage allows us to gain more territory through our stoppage dominance. The slow buildup means that we're well-positioned to defend even if we turn it over.

When we force a turnover, particularly in a dangerous position (i.e. the corridor), we attack, hoping to catch the opposition out of position. Attack when the risk is low and the likelihood of scoring is high.

We're happy to turn the game into a slow grind and chip away at the opposition. We don't want a fast, free-flowing game, and we don't want to win in a shootout.

Where it's going wrong:

• We're not dominating clearances. We get first hands on the ball more often than not, but we cannot exit a clearance cleanly. Even when we're dominating first possessions, the quality of the opposition's clearances out of the pack is generally cleaner than ours
• Our scores from stoppages have completely dried up, particularly in the forward 50. Teams score 2-3 goals from i50 stoppages against us every week. We'd be lucky to get one. This has been a significant regression in our game over the past two years and means we're not capitalising even when we are winning the territory battle
• Teams refuse to give us the short kick from the backline. It's obvious when watching at the ground. Every team sets up an arc of players 30 metres in front of the kicker, through the corridor and around to the boundary.
• We're forced to take the kick down the line to the stalls because we're unwilling to run it through via handball. Teams know this and set up for this, often beating us either in the air (ala Moore on the weekend) or through ground-level numbers (the Crows did this particularly well).
• When we turn it over, we're not set up well to defend it. We give up the corridor too easily, and teams have no trouble finding a loose man along the boundary. Given the slow buildup and time to set up defensively, this is damning at present. Explains why Voss was so angry about it in his presser

What I don't understand:
Why, when it's a 50/50 stoppage on centre wing, we have no one inside 50? See it repeatedly where the opposition has one or two inside 50, but all our players are outside the arc, including Harry and Charlie. Are we making up for a lack of decent half-forwards? No idea what the goal is here, but I don't think I've seen it work at all.

I think our midfield been rather blue collar and having no half forward line at all isn't helping. Territory game when you struggle to provide and hit targets as a team is hard to watch. Watching the zone break down because we don't have many players who read the ball well enough and/or have the pace to force turn overs is pretty hard to watch too.

Essendon are doing something similar to us but they can actually generate some run and carry to punish turn overs.

Biggest frustration I have is our forward line is flooded beyond belief or our smalls are where we want the Kpf's to be leading into.

Hell I was wondering why Owies was blocking Curnows lead even in the WC game.

 

[Beyond Blue]

Obviously not all Vossy's fault, but it does seem he's tinkered with the gameplan to the detriment of results. And he seems too stubborn to change. That's just an outside observation, could be different.

But he needed to tinker the game plan from last year as it wasn’t sustainable hence us not making the finals. Even when we were winning those wild games like Richmond (r1), Bulldogs (r2), Hawks (r3), Port (r5) and Sydney (r9) where we just won by playing 1-2 good quarters of football, evidence the game plan was unsustainable over four quarters.

The 8-2 win/loss record at the start of the season just masked the issue, and indeed the correction came in the second half of the year when we lost games against Richmond (r13), Saints (r16) and Collingwood (r23). IMO the best four quarter performance we had last year was actually in a loss our Melbourne.

IMO we would be seriously mad to get rid of him. It just sets us back further with another coach who’ll want time to implement their game plan. I was actually relieved Sayers came out and backed him yesterday. I just hope he can stay to his word. I’d like to think in Cook we have an experienced CEO who will be trusted to run the club instead of a charlatan who bows to the pressure of external noise.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

Leaving out the dead cat bounce last year are you happy with what's happened since?

A dead cat bounce is usually over a few weeks or a month, not a season. We showed in the last two rounds last year how far we'd come. Very happy with last year, very unhappy with this year.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

But he needed to tinker the game plan from last year as it wasn’t sustainable hence us not making the finals. Even when we were winning those wild games like Richmond (r1), Bulldogs (r2), Hawks (r3), Port (r5) and Sydney (r9) where we just won by playing 1-2 good quarters of football, evidence the game plan was unsustainable over four quarters.

The 8-2 win/loss record at the start of the season just masked the issue, and indeed the correction came in the second half of the year when we lost games against Richmond (r13), Saints (r16) and Collingwood (r23). IMO the best four quarter performance we had last year was actually in a loss our Melbourne.

IMO we would be seriously mad to get rid of him. It just sets us back further with another coach who’ll want time to implement their game plan. I was actually relieved Sayers came out and backed him yesterday. I just hope he can stay to his word. I’d like to think in Cook we have an experienced CEO who will be trusted to run the club instead of a charlatan who bows to the pressure of external noise.

No I'm definitely in the keep Voss camp, I think the players most definitely play for him and he's capable no doubt. But things need to change and very quickly before this downward turn spirals out of control.

 

[Jeremias]

Obviously not all Vossy's fault, but it does seem he's tinkered with the gameplan to the detriment of results. And he seems too stubborn to change. That's just an outside observation, could be different.

Of course he tinkered with the game plan; he needed to do exactly that.

Every coach tinkers with the game plan year on year, even the reigning premiers. So why wouldn't Voss as the coach of a side that missed finals altogether?

 

[Jeremias]

Leaving out the dead cat bounce last year are you happy with what's happened since?

Not sure that's an example of the dead cat bounce effect, in sporting terms that usually refers to an uplift in performance under a caretaker coach once a head coach is dismissed.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

Of course he tinkered with the game plan; he needed to do exactly that.

Every coach tinkers with the game plan year on year, even the reigning premiers. So why wouldn't Voss as the coach of a side that missed finals altogether?

I dont think it was the game plan that cost us finals for starters it was those heinous errors in the last two games. Gameplan was fine. Should've made finals. Nonetheless, you live and die by the choices you make and if you tinker you had better make it work, especially at a club with the weight of expectation we have.

 

[Jeremias]

I dont think it was the game plan that cost us finals for starters it was those heinous errors in the last two games. Gameplan was fine. Should've made finals. Nonetheless, you live and die by the choices you make and if you tinker you had better make it work, especially at a club with the weight of expectation we have.

I agree but we had someone say earlier that the game plan is at fault for these errors rather than the individual players.

 

[BM123]

Yes, in a sense but I think the basic 'player don't be playing good' argument completely shows no understanding in what drives performance. Preparation, training, recovery and attitude. All are highly influenced by both sides of the coach player coin.

Egs: Coach makes odd selections - players spread negativity

Player A trains hard but too many others jog and coach doesn't call them up to intensity, Player A gives up trying to train so hard - standards slip.

Players follow coaching instructions exactly, results don't follow, players start taking short cuts or thinking they know better.

Player A sees himself training harder and playing better than player B. Player A gets dropped player B doesn't. Confusion and negativity can spread.

There's all sorts of this but for whatever reason people like to be very very binary and think in game skills 'just need to be executed better' - yeah right. Why - identify the issues causing the composure or cohesion issues.

I'm tired of people thinking AFL drafted players aren't skilled enough. Of course they ******* are. It's everything around that.

In no other sport have I ever heard people excuse constant skill errors under no pressure as been the coaches fault. Consider Soccer where players transition across the world frequently. They don't blame the coach when a player hits some guy in the stands with his botched free kick.

The coaches is meant to direct players not kick the ball for them. Hardwick dealt with so many embarrassing defeats in his time as Richmond. He moved on those who couldn't perform and kept those who could. That is how it is meant to be.

Coaches ability to make changes is determined by his players ability to execute. There is a reason that all of the recent premiership sides have been chock full of leaders and future assistants/coaches. Reliable types who hold each other accountable. At Carlton after all the sackings we've had and player turn over.

Who would you consider a respected leader in the AFL community?

 

[macky99]

Of course he tinkered with the game plan; he needed to do exactly that.

Every coach tinkers with the game plan year on year, even the reigning premiers. So why wouldn't Voss as the coach of a side that missed finals altogether?

There is no problem tinkering/adding layers to the game plan, but the changes that have been made have not been positive at all.
lt was evident from Round 1 the attacking mindset from the playing group had gone, playing slow & predictable safe football, unless the coaching group start to go back to a more attacking style we will continue to find it difficult to score even with two quality key forwards.

Hopefully the shackles are released and we can strike a better balance, they need to rework the mid field and be bold, doing the same things over is going to produce the same outcomes we have seen this season.

 

[Accidental genius]

Interesting reading the number of posters here who are suddenly laying the blame on our players.

Where were you all two years ago when the howling for Teague's blood began and the players were lauded for mutineering against their coach?

This list is far better than Teague's, is unhindered by Covid sanctions and has a fully functional development team. It has six current and former AA's, two Coleman medalists, the Brownlow medalist and is finally at the age profile that we've been seeking for the last eight years. I'd go so far as to say it is the best balanced list we've had for twenty five years and yet....eight and a half wins in the last twenty two matches.

If it was all the coach's fault two years ago why is it the fault of the players now?

I've said that I don't want to sack the coach, as I said two years ago, I'm sick of that sh*t. But in finally deciding to stick fat with a coach, have we picked the right one?

Interesting times ahead.

Someone is thinking.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

I think our midfield been rather blue collar and having no half forward line at all isn't helping. Territory game when you struggle to provide and hit targets as a team is hard to watch. Watching the zone break down because we don't many players who read the ball well enough and/or have the pace to force turn overs is pretty hard to watch too.

Essendon are doing something similar to us but they can actually generate some run and carry to punish turn overs.

Biggest frustration I have is our forward line is flooded beyond belief or our smalls are where we want the Kpf's to be leading into.

Hell I was wondering why Owies was blocking Curnows lead even in the WC game.

I think our forward line flood is caused by excessive slow ball movement through the midfield and predictable game plan, as described very concisely by blues4flag above.
Unless our exceptional talls(H&C) grab it, no one else has any hope of taking possession. We still don't provide enough pressure to restrict defensive rebound, but that's another issue.
The careful low risk game plan is suffocating our attack.

 

[Arr0w]

Interesting reading the number of posters here who are suddenly laying the blame on our players.

Where were you all two years ago when the howling for Teague's blood began and the players were lauded for mutineering against their coach?

This list is far better than Teague's, is unhindered by Covid sanctions and has a fully functional development team. It has six current and former AA's, two Coleman medalists, the Brownlow medalist and is finally at the age profile that we've been seeking for the last eight years. I'd go so far as to say it is the best balanced list we've had for twenty five years and yet....eight and a half wins in the last twenty two matches.

If it was all the coach's fault two years ago why is it the fault of the players now?

I've said that I don't want to sack the coach, as I said two years ago, I'm sick of that sh*t. But in finally deciding to stick fat with a coach, have we picked the right one?

Interesting times ahead.

I was here

Through the Bolton to Teague era, Teague to Voss

Not much changes, depending on the quality of the list, the results will spike then reach its natural level

Still believe this list can push out 13-15 wins this season (probably the bottom end)

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

I agree but we had someone say earlier that the game plan is at fault for these errors rather than the individual players.

Haha no way come on they're wrong. Jeez to make those 3-4 awful errors two weeks in a row, it was a choke. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Arr0w]

There is no problem tinkering/adding layers to the game plan, but the changes that have been made have not been positive at all.

Wouldn't use "not positive", perhaps ineffective

lt was evident from Round 1 the attacking mindset from the playing group had gone, playing slow & predictable safe football, unless the coaching group start to go back to a more attacking style we will continue to find it difficult to score even with two quality key forwards.

Round 1 yes, round 2 was natural attacking movement

Lacking confidence? Perhaps

Hopefully the shackles are released and we can strike a better balance, they need to rework the mid field and be bold, doing the same things over is going to produce the same outcomes we have seen this season.

We should spank the Swans, given the injuries they have down the spine

Lose this, things will get ugly quickly

 

[Aphrodite]

Didn't we beat Richmond in a semi from ninth in 2013?

Beat them in an Elimination final.

 

[BM123]

I think our forward line flood is caused by excessive slow ball movement through the midfield and predictable game plan, as described very concisely by blues4flag above.
Unless our exceptional talls(H&C) grab it, no one else has any hope of taking possession. We still don't provide enough pressure to restrict defensive rebound, but that's another issue.
The careful low risk game plan is suffocating our attack.

I think our skills are suffocating us more to be honest. Bulldogs just smashed the Crows and gameplan didn't stop us from getting a million opportunities to punish the Dogs.

Essendon move the ball quite slowly at times but they can switch gears into an open forward line. I'm wondering if it's pace or gameplan that stops us from making a similar transition. Not like sling shotting after a turn over is anything new to AFL.

 

[Lukeblueboy]

Imo combination of game style And two many slow players through the midfield. We don’t flick the ball around quickly enough and when it gets turned over our bulls can’t chase defensively

When we kicked six straight against the dogs, that’s the style of footy we should be playing imo. We flicked the ball around fast and crisp.

 

[bmaurizio]

Our endevour & work rate are fine Vossy has us firing well, our problems are skill , speed, and a lumbering, intractable game plan.

 

[BM123]

There is no problem tinkering/adding layers to the game plan, but the changes that have been made have not been positive at all.
lt was evident from Round 1 the attacking mindset from the playing group had gone, playing slow & predictable safe football, unless the coaching group start to go back to a more attacking style we will continue to find it difficult to score even with two quality key forwards.

Hopefully the shackles are released and we can strike a better balance, they need to rework the mid field and be bold, doing the same things over is going to produce the same outcomes we have seen this season.

We played Russian roulette last year. It didn't get the job done and even bottom sides managed to shave off huge leads off us. Would've made finals if we didn't choke but it happens. Players haven't learnt how to deal with opposition gaining momentum yet. Plus it's a bigger risk when even your best goal kickers are suspect under pressure.

I find it difficult to believe that we always forgive the players for been poor defensively as a group. Anytime a coach tries to add a defensive edge to the team we complain. Other clubs live by it and it's part of their culture. We on the other hand support the club that has it's captain of all people targeted as the go to guy to play off.

"Just let them play!" Cliche has gotten old.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

I think our skills are suffocating us more to be honest. Bulldogs just smashed the Crows and gameplan didn't stop us from getting a million opportunities to punish the Dogs.

Essendon move the ball quite slowly at times but they can switch gears into an open forward line. I'm wondering if it's pace or gameplan that stops us from making a similar transition. Not like sling shotting after a turn over is anything new to AFL.

Our skills haven't recently been this poor. The crowded forward line created by slow ball delivery magnifies the need to be highly skilled receivers.
Good sides will concede goals through unavoidable errors and simply being beaten at a contest, but their willingness to attack abates this.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Our endevour & work rate are fine Vossy has us firing well, our problems are skill , speed, and a lumbering, intractable game plan.

Did you watch the game on Sunday mate? We had twelve players with zero tackles at half time.... not sure how that constitutes fine endeavour and work rate...

Saad didn't even lay one for the whole game...

And I'd like to see your reasoning behind blaming Vossy for that one...