Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[35Daicos]

Thought as much. Thanks mate. Keen to see how you tackle the other cases above!

My head is spinning with all these new posts arriving in such quick time! It was only a week or so ago I was thinking that things had been rather quiet on this board for a while, and suddenly ... It's great to see all this activity now, and you guys are doing some wonderful work!

 

[GreyCrow]

William Francis Roy 'Billy' Leahy: Regarding the posts from Leahy's grandson (whose name undoubtedly begins with G), he says that the information posted is incorrect, but isn't specific.

View attachment 1909595

Oliver and another Dogs fan tried to follow up and make contact that same day, and 'GLeahy' liked Oliver's post.

View attachment 1909597

'GLeahy' then signed in the next day, however no further public contact was made, and the last time he was seen on BF was 27 November 2022.

I thought I would do some digging on Leahy's very bare Wikipedia article to search for clues. In the edit revisions, on 16 August 2015, an IP address located in Auckland, New Zealand edited the 'Place of death' field in Leahy's infobox to read "Victoria Falls - Zimbabwe (Former Rhodesia)". No further information was given, and the edit was reverted within three hours due to it being unsourced.

View attachment 1909607

Almost five years went by, and then on 1 June 2020, another IP address – again located in Auckland – edited that same 'Place of death' field in Leahy's infobox to read "Victoria Falls - Rhodesia (Zimbabme) [sic]". This time, the unsourced edit was reverted within just one minute!

It seems very clear to me that this Auckland-based editor knows something we don't know. They are very likely a family member of Billy Leahy, and there's every chance it could be that same 'GLeahy' who posted on BF.

Someone has been trying to correct the record of Leahy on the internet for almost a decade, but they haven't yet found out the proper way to do so. At least, now, we have a greater clue than perhaps any of us had before.

His mother died in Africa - I found this a few years ago

Finally found his mother , which might further a clue for Bill . Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 19 Jan 1957 Louise ( Green on BDM) Jan 15 1957 in Bulawayo South Africa. No mention of Bill, only husband and sisters and brother. Of these the Brother died in 1945 and no mention of Bill. Alice Mason (sister died 1958 so no notice to see)

But its a direction

I then had Leahy arriving in the US just after his mother died (but of course I cant find it again

 

[GreyCrow]

Trying to update GreyCrow 's old missing DOD list to something representing where we are at in 2024. It was previously last updated in November 2021 so there was a bit of work to do. I've removed the ID numbers at the start as they were from the old list almost a decade ago and have no relevance now with so many in between 'found'.

This has been quite a laborious task going back and finding all the notes for each of these cases, so bear with me while I complete the table intermittently. Some of the names listed may have been 'found' since Nov 2021, so I'll eventually remove them too, if so. Cheers!

Missing DODs/possibly living V/AFL footballers as at 20 February 2024

Thank you for tidying this up

Joe Marr is an interesting one

His brother was a WW1 hero and had a write up when he returned which had me scratching my head

MARR Joseph Thomas Birth
Elizabeth MIDOLO
Jas Adam
R'MOND 1880
18256/1880

MARR Leslie Geo Birth
Elizth MIDOLO
Jas Adam
RMOND 1897
14011/1897

Returning for a spell, Anzac Leslie
George Marr, M.M., only surviving
son of the late Mr. and Mrs. Marr, of
74 Somerset-street, and nephew of
Mr. John James, 4 Brougham-street.
Fix this textHe was one of the first Richmond
boys to don the khaki, as his number
(161) indicates, and he carries with
him a fine military record.

Under the Union Jack - Richmond Guardian (Vic. : 1884 - 1885; 1894 - 1897; 1900 - 1930) - 1 Jun 1918

Which I made a note that Joseph died pre=1918 - and which I couldnt find info for

 

[GreyCrow]

Raymond Ross

Found something that caught my eye and wanted some feedback. Now this is all speculation the only connection is the names and dates.

Raymond Paul Ross born May 1900 (relevant) to Mary Alice Ross and Unknown father

Family name ROSS Given names Raymond Paul Father's name Unknown Mother's name Mary Alice (Ross)

Place of birth HOTHAM WEST

There doesnt look to be any relevant marriages of Mary Alice to anybody to investigate.

Excluding Ross and entering Raymond Paul in Deaths only brings up an interesting coincidence.

Family name ELLIOTT Given names Raymond Paul
Father's name ELLIOTT Frederick William Mother's name Alice (Ross)

Place of birth Northcote Place of death Essendon Age 80

----------------------------

There is no corresponding Birth record for Raymond Paul Elliott in Vic BDM yet the above death notice suggests there must be.
There is no corresponding Marriage except for a Min(n)ie Ross to Fred Elliott in 1895. Yet I think that could be Jemima Minnie Elliott

Looking on deceasedsearch- GMCT site we see the interment of RP Elliott at Fawkner. Interred June 1980 (relevance) aged 80 ie May birthday celebrated

--------------

Once again this is only speculation and subject to further check.

Any thoughts?

Again a purchase of a Death Cert might clear this up

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

William Francis Roy 'Billy' Leahy: Regarding the posts from Leahy's grandson (whose name undoubtedly begins with G), he says that the information posted is incorrect, but isn't specific.

I thought I would do some digging on Leahy's very bare Wikipedia article to search for clues. In the edit revisions, on 16 August 2015, an IP address located in Auckland, New Zealand edited the 'Place of death' field in Leahy's infobox to read "Victoria Falls - Zimbabwe (Former Rhodesia)". No further information was given, and the edit was reverted within three hours due to it being unsourced.

View attachment 1909607


Someone has been trying to correct the record of Leahy on the internet for almost a decade, but they haven't yet found out the proper way to do so. At least, now, we have a greater clue than perhaps any of us had before.

On Family search - searching for surname Leahy, deaths in Zimbabwe I found:

Lines up with clues above and date of birth (1912 is inferred from age at death of 66) - think this is the death we are looking for!

Summary: Add death for Bill Leahy as 3 March 1978 in Zimbabwe

 

[Gibbsy]

On Family search - searching for surname Leahy, deaths in Zimbabwe I found:
View attachment 1909686
Lines up with clues above and date of birth (1912 is inferred from age at death of 66) - think this is the death we are looking for!

Summary: Add death for Bill Leahy as 3 March 1978 in Zimbabwe

You've got it! Great find. I was barrelling through FamilySearch last night too, but through individual collections, including one of deaths that ended in 1977...

So he died just four days short of his 67th birthday, which explains that approximate 1912 date in your screenshot.



I'd love to get confirmation on Victoria Falls as the place of death rather than just the whole country, but we can be satisfied with the above as the DOD for sure.

 

[Gibbsy]

..I think the 1974 date may be misleading - Roger Musgrove Hearn is listed in his brother Richard's death notice in 1974 (not noted as deceased) - so some trees have death as "after 1974" but this has then been interpreted by others as a 1974 death. He has multiple siblings dying in the 1974 to 1991 window so perhaps dates can be further narrowed if their death notices can be found...

I've got a quite fascinating lead on Bill Hearn that I found through a bit more Ancestry digging that gives a DOD of 2 November 1949!

Let's go back to the facts re: dates.

It looks fairly conclusive that Roger Musgrove Hearn was born on 4 March 1914, rather than 1913 as is listed in the league's records / Wiki etc. currently.

He often found himself in trouble with the law. I can't recall if these articles have been shared before in any Hearn research, but it helps paint the picture.

In 1936, he appeared in the Ballarat City Court for a break and enter charge (note: the age given of 24 years is likely an error).



That same year, we see his last mention in any sort of Australian electoral roll under the name Roger Musgrove Hearn, in the Richmond Central roll.



Hearn couldn't stay out of trouble. In 1939, he was sentenced to six months' gaol for shopbreaking and stealing at Minyip.



We also have confirmation that he was playing local football up til as late as 1940, for Coleraine, where his surname was often misprinted as Hearne.



From there, he seems to fade off into the distance, with no further knowledge, apart from the implication in brother Richard's 1974 death notice that he was still alive.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's where it gets interesting. An Ancestry tree with a match for Bill Hearn gives his name as Roger (Distance) Hearn, with a birth year of 1914 and a death date of 2 November 1949.



We can almost certainly deduce that this is our Bill Hearn. His extensive list of siblings on the right (cropped, there are more) matches up with everything we know about Bill. I also found it interesting that this particular tree (or section of the tree) appears to be entirely "hand-written" – insofar as that none of the dates, names or relationships are sourced from any Ancestry database records.

This leads me to believe that the creator of this tree has a very close connection with Bill Hearn. They know that brother Donald Hearn was better known as "Mike" (I remember it took a while for this thread to reach that conclusion), and they also have a nickname for brother Leslie Hearn – "Leggedy" – that is not found anywhere else online.

Misspellings such as Demsey/Dempsey, Mannicks/Mannix, and different date formats inserted for births and deaths (some numerical, some with words, some with lowercase) all points to a tree that has been manually created from prior family knowledge.

I decided to do some crosschecking with records in more established trees to see whether this manual one was filling any gaps. One of the 'top hits' for Leslie Mannix Hearn (1918–1999) shows plenty of information including the death years of numerous relatives, his military service, and his death date / burial date and location (the latter cropped out in this screenshot below). However, as you can see on the right panel, there are death dates missing for numerous siblings including Eileen Veronica Hearn, John Hearn, Norman Arthur Hearn, Mary Hearn, Ronda Hearn, and our man Roger Musgrove Hearn.



If we take a look at the "hand-written" tree for Leslie William (Leggedy) Hearn, we can piece together so many of those gaps. Eileen Veronica Hearn (married name: Eileen Veronica Edward) died in 1990, and was actually born in 1900. While we can cross-reference those dates with other trees (her DOB was 12 Dec 1900 in Ballarat, and her DOD 19 Jan 1990 in Springvale), this tree is the only one of 32 trees that lists her nickname as "Nell". Then there's Rhoda Rose Hearn (married name: Rhoda Rose Green; incorrectly listed as Ronda Hearn in another trees), who died on 11 Nov 1994 (albeit listed here with an incorrect birth year, as Vic BDM has her being born in 1912). Now, similarly, that can be cross-referenced with other trees out there, but remember – this "hand-written" tree doesn't have any linkages with any other trees on Ancestry. Even the listing of Leslie's spouse as simply (Iris) indicates that this is based off prior/family knowledge and not much else.



It feels like the above/below tree (known as the Casey Family Tree on Ancestry) is as close to the source as we have found so far in terms of learning the fate of Bill Hearn. He has (at least) five living nephews and one niece who would likely have some information on Bill's life. To those with an Ancestry subscription, here is the link to Roger (Distance) Hearn. I'd love to know where that "Distance" nickname came from!



WhiteHartLane23 , is it you who's crafted messages to 'tree owners' in the past, asking for more info? The board would be ever so grateful if you could manufacture something of the same for this case. CC: rbartlett – we are getting closer!

 

[rbartlett]

I've got a quite fascinating lead on Bill Hearn that I found through a bit more Ancestry digging that gives a DOD of 2 November 1949!

Let's go back to the facts re: dates.

It looks fairly conclusive that Roger Musgrove Hearn was born on 4 March 1914, rather than 1913 as is listed in the league's records / Wiki etc. currently.

He often found himself in trouble with the law. I can't recall if these articles have been shared before in any Hearn research, but it helps paint the picture.

In 1936, he appeared in the Ballarat City Court for a break and enter charge (note: the age given of 24 years is likely an error).

View attachment 1909876

That same year, we see his last mention in any sort of Australian electoral roll under the name Roger Musgrove Hearn, in the Richmond Central roll.

View attachment 1909864

Hearn couldn't stay out of trouble. In 1939, he was sentenced to six months' gaol for shopbreaking and stealing at Minyip.

View attachment 1909877

We also have confirmation that he was playing local football up til as late as 1940, for Coleraine, where his surname was often misprinted as Hearne.

View attachment 1909870

From there, he seems to fade off into the distance, with no further knowledge, apart from the implication in brother Richard's 1974 death notice that he was still alive.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's where it gets interesting. An Ancestry tree with a match for Bill Hearn gives his name as Roger (Distance) Hearn, with a birth year of 1914 and a death date of 2 November 1949.

View attachment 1909882

We can almost certainly deduce that this is our Bill Hearn. His extensive list of siblings on the right (cropped, there are more) matches up with everything we know about Bill. I also found it interesting that this particular tree (or section of the tree) appears to be entirely "hand-written" – insofar as that none of the dates, names or relationships are sourced from any Ancestry database records.

This leads me to believe that the creator of this tree has a very close connection with Bill Hearn. They know that brother Donald Hearn was better known as "Mike" (I remember it took a while for this thread to reach that conclusion), and they also have a nickname for brother Leslie Hearn – "Leggedy" – that is not found anywhere else online.

Misspellings such as Demsey/Dempsey, Mannicks/Mannix, and different date formats inserted for births and deaths (some numerical, some with words, some with lowercase) all points to a tree that has been manually created from prior family knowledge.

I decided to do some crosschecking with records in more established trees to see whether this manual one was filling any gaps. One of the 'top hits' for Leslie Mannix Hearn (1918–1999) shows plenty of information including the death years of numerous relatives, his military service, and his death date / burial date and location (the latter cropped out in this screenshot below). However, as you can see on the right panel, there are death dates missing for numerous siblings including Eileen Veronica Hearn, John Hearn, Norman Arthur Hearn, Mary Hearn, Ronda Hearn, and our man Roger Musgrove Hearn.

View attachment 1909901

If we take a look at the "hand-written" tree for Leslie William (Leggedy) Hearn, we can piece together so many of those gaps. Eileen Veronica Hearn (married name: Eileen Veronica Edward) died in 1990, and was actually born in 1900. While we can cross-reference those dates with other trees (her DOB was 12 Dec 1900 in Ballarat, and her DOD 19 Jan 1990 in Springvale), this tree is the only one of 32 trees that lists her nickname as "Nell". Then there's Rhoda Rose Hearn (married name: Rhoda Rose Green; incorrectly listed as Ronda Hearn in another trees), who died on 11 Nov 1994 (albeit listed here with an incorrect birth year, as Vic BDM has her being born in 1912). Now, similarly, that can be cross-referenced with other trees out there, but remember – this "hand-written" tree doesn't have any linkages with any other trees on Ancestry. Even the listing of Leslie's spouse as simply (Iris) indicates that this is based off prior/family knowledge and not much else.

View attachment 1909915

It feels like the above/below tree (known as the Casey Family Tree on Ancestry) is as close to the source as we have found so far in terms of learning the fate of Bill Hearn. He has (at least) five living nephews and one niece who would likely have some information on Bill's life. To those with an Ancestry subscription, here is the link to Roger (Distance) Hearn. I'd love to know where that "Distance" nickname came from!

View attachment 1909931

WhiteHartLane23 , is it you who's crafted messages to 'tree owners' in the past, asking for more info? The board would be ever so grateful if you could manufacture something of the same for this case. CC: rbartlett – we are getting closer!

Just to cover all bases, I checked 1949 RFC Annual Report, and there was no listing of his death. (Not that I expected that as he only played a handful of games 14 years earlier)

 

[Gibbsy]

Thank you for tidying this up

Joe Marr is an interesting one

His brother was a WW1 hero and had a write up when he returned which had me scratching my head

MARR Joseph Thomas Birth
Elizabeth MIDOLO
Jas Adam
R'MOND 1880
18256/1880

MARR Leslie Geo Birth
Elizth MIDOLO
Jas Adam
RMOND 1897
14011/1897

Returning for a spell, Anzac Leslie
George Marr, M.M., only surviving
son of the late Mr. and Mrs. Marr, of
74 Somerset-street, and nephew of
Mr. John James, 4 Brougham-street.
Fix this textHe was one of the first Richmond
boys to don the khaki, as his number
(161) indicates, and he carries with
him a fine military record.

Under the Union Jack - Richmond Guardian (Vic. : 1884 - 1885; 1894 - 1897; 1900 - 1930) - 1 Jun 1918

Which I made a note that Joseph died pre=1918 - and which I couldnt find info for

I think we got Marr a little while back. See the history around his changed name on Wikipedia

It's been accepted by Rodgers/AFL anyway

He was from the Nov 2021 list, so hadn't got around to cross-checking yet.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

WhiteHartLane23 , is it you who's crafted messages to 'tree owners' in the past, asking for more info? The board would be ever so grateful if you could manufacture something of the same for this case.

I've sent off a message - the user appears to be active - was last logged in earlier today so hopefully will get a response pretty quickly

 

[Gibbsy]

I've sent off a message - the user appears to be active - was last logged in earlier today so hopefully will get a response pretty quickly

Thanks WHL. Am I on the right track there? So fascinated by the name "Distance". I wonder if it's because he moved a long distance away after 1940?!

 

[Gibbsy]

Okay. Updated list of missing DODs is now complete! This was a good 15-hour job, trawling through almost a decade of research on this board. But it should help revitalise a few of these cases that haven't been 'tackled' for a number of years, particularly the ones that feel very close to completion!

There is even Jim Smith, who doesn't appear to have been researched at all – could be an easy win there? Team, feel free to poke through the list of notes, build up your knowledge and have a crack at solving some of these tough cases that have sat dormant for ages.

Missing DODs/possibly living V/AFL footballers as at 22 February 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Des Bell	Desmond Clyde Bell	23 May 1923	Melb 1946–48	Part of the list of oldest possibly living players Alive in Aug 2022
Harry Brown	Harold Francis Brown	[?] [?] 1902	StK 1927	Thought by AFL to be Henry John Brown, DOB 16 Oct 1903 (unlikely) Played for Caulfield and Hawksburn prior to StK H. Brown transferred StK > Camberwell H. F. Brown (same guy?) went C'well > Coll. District Service date of death discovered to be 17 Mar 1975; DOD possibly 13 Mar 1975 This puts DOB some time between 13 Mar and 31 Dec 1902 This feels like it can be ticked off if we can source birth/death certs
Otto Buck	Samuel Otto John Buck	15 Nov 1876	Carl 1897	Last confirmed existence in Mildura, 1917 (electoral roll); extensive notes on Ancestry here but no DOD Did not die in 1946 as some trees claim (different Samuel Buck)
Jack Cliff	Jack Louis Cliff	23 May 1919	StK 1940–42	Played for West Broken Hill prior to StK AFL/SR says: became a 'gangster', killed in unmarked grave Last confirmed existence in Elwood, 1980 (electoral roll)
Frank Corby	Eugene Francis Corby	24 Dec 1924	Coll 1948	Lawrence William Corby was Frank's brother, not a pseudonym Previous Coll FC contact with family did not reveal DOD
Fred Coulsell	Frederick Rowland Coulsell	17 Dec 1905	NM 1927; Ess 1931	Ancestry tree shows DOD of 16 Jun 1997 at Beenleigh, QLD This is a solid lead, but we need confirmation
Bobby Craig	Robert Ritchie Craig	29 Mar 1882	Melb 1902	Born in Williamstown (Aus), moved to Scotland by 1901 (census) Departed Liverpool for Argentina in 1913, married in Scotland in 1914 Brother Andrew buried in Dromana (Aus) in 1982
Max Glass	Maxwell Herbert Glass	2 Oct 1925	SM 1945	Last confirmed existence in Jan 1999 (possibly near Coffs Harbour) Living in Rye, 1980 (electoral roll), has a son also named Maxwell (John)
Gordon Green	Gordon Stanley Green	31 May 1925	NM 1942	Part of the list of oldest possibly living players Alive in Jul 2018
Barry Griffiths	[?]	12 Jul 1929	Haw 1950–52	Part of the list of oldest possibly living players Originally from Canterbury
Bill Hearn	Roger Musgrove Hearn	4 Mar 1914	Rich 1935	Initially thought by AFL to be Roy William Hearn (unlikely) Played for Minyip from 1937–39, where he was referred to as Roger ("Bill") Hearn AFL/SR says: enlisted in WW2 as William Hearn, strong links to Ballarat, death year of 1974 touted in some Ancestry trees DOB appears to be 4 Mar 1914 and not 4 Mar 1913 as previously thought DOD found on Ancestry for a Roger "Distance" Hearn of 2 Nov 1949; siblings and other clues give indication that the source is clsoe to the family Waiting to hear back from owner of potentially crucial family tree
Charlie Jenkins	William Charles Jenkins	21 Aug 1874	Fitz 1898	Thought by AFL to be Charles Herbert Jenkins, DOB 17 Jun 1878, cousin of Ern Jenkins (unlikely) Jenkins often called himself Charles William instead of William Charles He transferred to Fitzroy in 1894 Ancestry tree shows DOD of 1 Jun 1956 Seems like we have it figured out, looks like we are waiting to confirm a la Fred Coulsell?
Ray Jones	Raymond Leslie Jones	17 Feb 1924	Geel 1950	Part of the list of oldest possibly living players Born in Ballarat
Edmund Kirwin	Edmund Kirwin	31 Mar 1876	StK 1898	Kirwin's brother Maurice died in 1960 Kirwin was an established cricketer for St Kilda CC; CricketArchive records list an Edward Kirwan (diff spelling both names), DOB 1872, DOD 20 Feb 1929 Michael Kirwen (again, diff spelling) listed as brother of Maurice, died in 1952, but no mention of Edmund, despite the fact they were also brothers
Tom Lee	Thomas Francis Lee	11 Dec 1874	Coll 1897–98	Lee's mother Elizabeth appears to have died on the day of his birth There are no death notices for any of his relatives that have died Ancestry trees and death notices suggest he died before 1915, possibly before 1904
George Lockwood	George Lockwood	6 Dec 1872	Geel 1899–1901; Coll 1902–04	AFL/SR says: possible death year of 1946(unlikely) A George Hislop Lockwood died overseas in war in 1917 (inconclusive) Lockwood lived until at least 1944 according to death notice of relative Lockwood's twin Teddy died in 1953 The Lockwood lineage looks as so
Jack MacDonald	[?]	16 May 1927	Haw 1951–53	Part of the list of oldest possibly living players Originally from Carey Grammar / Camberwell
Joe Marchant	[?]	[?] c. 1884	StK 1904	Thought by AFL to be John Albert Marchant, DOB 11 Sep 1884 in NSW (unlikely) No transfer details; "The Encyclopedia" lists him as Joseph Marchant
Jim McDonald	James William McDonald	[?] [?] 1913	Melb 1942	Thought by AFL/SR to be James Kenneth McDonald, DOB 24 Jun 1916 (unlikely) Brother of Alan McDonald, player (1939–43) and coach (1957–60) of Richmond From Leongatha, still with Melb in early 1943 A permit of J. W. McDonald (could be Jim?) from Melb to Rich in Jun 1943 J. W. went from Rich to Camberwell in 1945 alongside (brother?) Alan Alan's son had supposedly been in touch with AFL/CH in Jun 2018 to provide Jim K.'s DOD, but heard nothing since Rhett made contact with Alan's daughter in Mar 2020, but heard nothing since Vic BDM search suggests James William, died 1984 in Meeniyan, is our man Looks like this one could be fairly close to being tied up
Jack McKenzie	John James McKenzie	19 Aug 1908	Ess 1929	Son of John Joseph 'Dookie' McKenzie (1881–1946) Married Lorna Davis Ireland in 1933, divorced in 1939 Listed as deceased in father Dookie's death notice, so McKenzie's death is presumed between Jul 1939 and Mar 1946
Jim Miller	James Henry Miller	30 May 1919	Foot 1938–48	Oldest ever VFL/AFL footballer! Alive in Jun 2023
Alf Neeson	Alfred Carl Frank Neeson	15 Jun 1914	Fitz 1935–36; Haw 1936–38	DOB thought in early research to be 5 June 1914 due to war records (proven false via Vic BDM) Joined Army in early 1935 and discharged later that year Was arrested in 1939 for stealing a car, changed his name at some point around this time to Alfred Briggs Married Ivy McRae/Seale in 1940 as Alfred M. Briggs Potentially interchanging use of Briggs/Neeson names, was in WA goldfields region in late 1940s Former wife Ivy died in 1974 Further evidence suggesting Alf swapped between Briggs & Neeson throughout his life AFL/SR says: suggest Alf used Alfred Milton Briggs as a full name; Alfred and Ivy on Kalgoorlie electoral roll in 1949 Further SR research; no Briggs in Kalgoorlie cemetery Alma Seale (sister of Ivy Briggs)'s daughter Winifred moved to Frankston before 1980 Winifred contacted Rhett in Nov 2017 but only had vague memories of Alf SR: No response from New Norcia Monastery (potential lead from Winifred) Genealogist with history of researching Alf says he married at least once, possibly twice more after Ivy, and Milton Kenneth Briggs is possibly an adopted son
Mick O'Hagan	Michael Joseph O'Hagan	22 Jan 1878	StK 1897	Michael Joseph O'Hagan studied pharmacy at Melb Uni in 1895; mentioned in court case in 1908 as being from Nathalia His sister, Mary Terese, died in 1970 aged 90; death notice lists Mick as deceased Some questioning over whether Michael Joseph is our man given lack of quality of early St Kilda player records Given contemporaries and schooling, confident that he is the right man
Fred Payne	Frederick Ronald Payne	4 Feb 1927	Ess 1949–53	Part of the list of oldest possibly living players Originally from Ardmona
George Prismall	George Henry Prismall	10 Mar 1915	Ess 1935	Served in British Merchant Navy during WWII Mother was Gladys Prismall (1893–1980), who didn't marry His sister, Phyllis Catherine, died in 2014 Last existence, living in Earls Court (Aussie hotspot) circa 1947–48
Sam Reid	Samuel Alexander Reid	17 Jun 1872	Carl 1897	Parents were likely James Reid and Ann Eliza Reid (nee Ralston) Probably not the Samuel Reid 50 Samuel Reid Age 35 Ht 188cm Wt 85kg Pos. Def Career Season Last 5 D 12.4 3star K 6.5 3star HB 5.9 4star M 3.1 3star T 3.0 5star MG 176.3 3star No current season stats available D 12.6 4star K 4.0 2star HB 8.6 5star M 3.4 4star T 4.6 5star that died in 1949 and may have lived in Japan (different parents to those listed on Blueseum)
Arch Robinson	Archibald Robinson	9 Jul 1890	Rich 1911	Served in AIF during WWI; Army records suggest he was born in 1888, not 1890 Divorced Edith Robinson Whitehead in 1921 Was often misnamed as Robertson
Ray Ross	Raymond Paul Ross	2 May 1900	Ess 1921	Ross is not the Rich/StK player Raymond Roberts Ross, from a similar era Potential that Raymond Paul Ross changed his name to Raymond Paul Elliott and died in 1980 (same mother) More ruling out of other people (aka Raymond Roberts Ross) Permit for an R. Ross going from Ess > NM in Rd 4, 1922 Raymond Paul Ross was not a jeweller listed in 1921 (different guy)
Jim Smith	James William Smith	11 Feb 1887	SM 1906	No research listed on BF! Have at it, team! Listed as from Marylebone (Geelong Juniors) in "The Encyclopedia"
John Solomon	[?]	15 Jun 1928	StK 1948–52	Part of the list of oldest possibly living players Nickname of "Jack" given in "The Encylopedia"
Jack Taylor	[?]	9 May 1924	Haw 1945	Part of the list of oldest possibly living players Originally from Melbourne High School
Alby Williams	Albert Joseph Williams	3 Aug 1916	NM 1943	Married Doris Vivienne Williams (nee Jackman) in 1940 When Doris passed away in 1964, Alby was still listed as alive in her death notice
Bill Woods	William Cross Woods	[?] [?] 1881	Geel 1909	Thought by AFL to be William Henry Woods, DOB 31 Aug 1890 (unlikely) Then believed to be William Woods, born 1890 in Portarlington, enlisted in First AIF in 1915 and returned to Aus in 1919 Potential cremation date 6 July 1972 in Springvale (unlikely to be our man) Initial scepticism from AFL/SR; mention of brother called Ike Potential match of William Cross Woods (1881–1959) Third son of Emma and Isaac Woods (potentially William's parents) died in 1891 Discovery of alternate surname Burgess which seemed to be used interchangeably with Woods DOD of William Cross Woods listed as 3 Aug 1959 in Geelong Info on William's son Isaac Detailed family tree of William Cross Woods, refuting AFL/SR likely incorrect beliefs that he was still William Henry Woods AFL/SR still pushing back on William Cross Burial info on Woods' potential wife Adeline Alice Suggestion for AFL to purchase Woods' mother's death certificate to glean more information This one feels very close and gettable

Recently confirmed DODs since last update

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	D.O.D.	Career	Notes
Billy Leahy	William Francis Roy Leahy	7 Mar 1911	3 Mar 1978	Foot 1934–36	Confirmation post

---

Missing DOBs V/AFL footballers as at 22 February 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	D.O.D.	Career	Notes
Dick Casey	Richard James Casey	c. 1881	16 Apr 1919	SM 1905–12
Bill Hennington	William Hennington	c. 1891	11 Jul 1964	SM 1914
Jim Schellnack	James Schellnack	c. 1880	24 May 1968	SM 1904

 

[Gibbsy]

I've added seven of the oldest "possibly living" players to the above DODs list too, so we can monitor and crosscheck. I am very much hoping that the oldest footballer ever, Jim Miller, is still going as strong as he was last June!

Obviously of these 'new' additions to the list, none of them can have their births crosschecked with BDM just yet as they fall below the 100-year threshold. But it is still worth poking around the death register of BDM too just to see if anyone may have been missed, especially if we cannot find any evidence online of them being alive.

Hence I'm curious about Jack Macdonald. He is listed in the 2009 Encylopedia (8th ed.) as John McDonald (note: no 'a'), born in 1927, ex-Camberwell.

This BDM listing of a Jack McDonald dying in Carlton in 1987, aged 60, might just be tangential. But I'd like to rule it out.



It definitely seems he was referred to as MacDonald most of the time.



But of course, you get the odd discrepancy.



That said, I can't seem to find any matches on Ancestry for a 16 May 1927 DOB, which would indicate that he's alive.

 

[35Daicos]

I've added seven of the oldest "possibly living" players to the above DODs list too, so we can monitor and crosscheck. I am very much hoping that the oldest footballer ever, Jim Miller, is still going as strong as he was last June!

Obviously of these 'new' additions to the list, none of them can have their births crosschecked with BDM just yet as they fall below the 100-year threshold. But it is still worth poking around the death register of BDM too just to see if anyone may have been missed, especially if we cannot find any evidence online of them being alive.

Hence I'm curious about Jack Macdonald. He is listed in the 2009 Encylopedia (8th ed.) as John McDonald (note: no 'a'), born in 1927, ex-Camberwell.

This BDM listing of a Jack McDonald dying in Carlton in 1987, aged 60, might just be tangential. But I'd like to rule it out.

View attachment 1910932

It definitely seems he was referred to as MacDonald most of the time.

View attachment 1910937

But of course, you get the odd discrepancy.

View attachment 1910935

That said, I can't seem to find any matches on Ancestry for a 16 May 1927 DOB, which would indicate that he's alive.

This is his entry in the most recent version of the Encyclopedia:

So they've made that change somewhere along the way.

 

[Gibbsy]

Ray Jones, on the recently added list of possibly living players, has unfortunately passed away.

This one is fairly cut and dry.





Summary: Add DOD: 1 October 2007 - to Raymond Leslie Jones

 

[Bandit55]

Fred Payne is still alive:

Bombers celebrate oldest living player

Dons pay a visit to Fred Payne for 97th birthday.

www.essendonfc.com.au

 

[35Daicos]

Fred Payne is still alive:

Bombers celebrate oldest living player

Dons pay a visit to Fred Payne for 97th birthday.

www.essendonfc.com.au

It's funny that this just showed up (I'm searching for MacDonald)!!:

 

[Gibbsy]

Fred Payne is still alive:

Bombers celebrate oldest living player

Dons pay a visit to Fred Payne for 97th birthday.

www.essendonfc.com.au

That's beautiful. I got a tear in the eye watching that video! I love when clubs do stuff like this.

Of course, probably a little bit easier to track down and honour a Grand Finalist (or a life member / president in the case of Miller at Footscray) than a two-gamer who came down from the country one day.

But so long as we keep doing what we do on this board, we keep the history of this game alive.

 

[rbartlett]

Outstanding work Gibbsy with all that.

As for Jim McDonald. Rodgers told me his date of birth is 15 - 6 -1913 in an email June 2022, and I see his wikipedioa page reflects that

 

[Gibbsy]

Outstanding work Gibbsy with all that.

As for Jim McDonald. Rodgers told me his date of birth is 15 - 6 -1913 in an email June 2022, and I see his wikipedioa page reflects that

Thanks mate.

I've actually just seen that Australian Football has a DOB (15 June 1913) and DOD (28 September 1984) for Jim McDonald, which lines up with the research notes I have in the table.

Which is great! Another one ticked off! I'm not sure if I simply missed that or it was discovered by Oliver G through other means, as it hasn't been synthesised on Wikipedia yet.

 

[Gibbsy]

Working through more of the 'new' names on the possibly living list; researching Barry Griffiths. We don't have a full name at this point. Some searching of Trove in the earliest references of him (pre-1950 while he was trialling for Hawthorn) reveal that he was from Ashburton and played for Eastern Suburban Churches.





I couldn't find a transfer listing to scope out middle name / initials, so I thought I'd have a poke through the electoral rolls on Ancestry and see what was the best lead.

From the below, I'm pretty confident that Barry Joseph Griffiths is our man. He certainly moved around a bit, but it all seems to match up with originating in Ashburton. His 1963 residence in Oakleigh is only 5km away, and his 1967 residence in Syndal only 7km away. He then moves to South Barwon near Geelong by 1972, a little further north to Highton in 1977 (not seen in this image) and moves further south-east by 1980 where he was living in Drysdale.



As Ryerson hasn't turned up anything for Barry Joseph Griffiths, I'm inclined to believe he is still with us.

 

[rbartlett]

Working through more of the 'new' names on the possibly living list; researching Barry Griffiths. We don't have a full name at this point. Some searching of Trove in the earliest references of him (pre-1950 while he was trialling for Hawthorn) reveal that he was from Ashburton and played for Eastern Suburban Churches.

View attachment 1911053

View attachment 1911054

I couldn't find a transfer listing to scope out middle name / initials, so I thought I'd have a poke through the electoral rolls on Ancestry and see what was the best lead.

From the below, I'm pretty confident that Barry Joseph Griffiths is our man. He certainly moved around a bit, but it all seems to match up with originating in Ashburton. His 1963 residence in Oakleigh is only 5km away, and his 1967 residence in Syndal only 7km away. He then moves to South Barwon near Geelong by 1972, a little further north to Highton in 1977 (not seen in this image) and moves further south-east by 1980 where he was living in Drysdale.

View attachment 1911055

As Ryerson hasn't turned up anything for Barry Joseph Griffiths, I'm inclined to believe he is still with us.

Is this his permit - as B Griffith, without the s on the end

Looks like permit to Oakleigh in 1953 but still no full name or middle initial
(though permit has typo of his first name initial D)




This 1953 article says he was 22 years of age - which would put his DOB ~1931 , which is different to what wiki has which is 1929




In 1954 he left Oakleigh to Albury.
It says he is 24 years old 1954 which makes his dob ~1930, which is still different to his wiki 1929 dob. Still no middle name
Certainly played a couple of games in Albury in 1954 and then in 1955 (did he move up there for that I wonder Gibbsy or 35Daicos because if so, he might be in an electoral roll of Albury around 1954-55)

Playing two seasons at least with Albury - perhaps their historian (if they have one) may be aware of if he is still alive, and what is full name is



Now, I may be really jumping the gun here - but is this the same Barry Griffiths in 1959 for Acton Football Club.

 

[Gibbsy]

Is this his permit - as B Griffith, without the s on the endView attachment 1911104

I think it has to be – good find. Hartwell is in modern-day Camberwell, which is 4km away from Ashburton where Griffiths lived. It looks like an innocent typo to me.

 

[Gibbsy]

Couldn't find much at all for John Solomon, except that he was better known as Jack (which we already guessed). There were a many number of John Solomons on the electoral roll, too many to deduce the right one like I seemingly could with Barry Griffiths. Hopefully he is still with us.

Got a little bit more info on Jack Taylor, but with such a common name, he won't be all that easy to identify if he is to have unfortunately passed. Interestingly enough he is another Ashburton-based fellow.

 

[35Daicos]

Couldn't find much at all for John Solomon, except that he was better known as Jack (which we already guessed). There were a many number of John Solomons on the electoral roll, too many to deduce the right one like I seemingly could with Barry Griffiths. Hopefully he is still with us.

Got a little bit more info on Jack Taylor, but with such a common name, he won't be all that easy to identify if he is to have unfortunately passed. Interestingly enough he is another Ashburton-based fellow.
View attachment 1911121

View attachment 1911120

That^ looks like J. C. Solomon.


And this looks like him (from the pennant cricket records)!:









Summary: John/Jack Solomon (Jonathan Crawford Solomon) died 14 July 2011. In 1955 he changed his surname to Crawford.