Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[GreyCrow]

There is a Patrick McDonald passing in 1959 to a Patrick and Elizabeth (O'Brien) so I am wondering if someone has seen the OBrien and made a connection? I cant see any relevant death in the 1950s using Patrick as a name.

According to the Essendon website pages for past players, Paddy died sometime in the 1950s
http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles-m

Will check for clues in range of BDMs to see if I find a match.

Patrick was born to John and Margaret (O'Brien) Margaret died 1936 and her children are listed along with her late husband John.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205950759 (you have to slide page across to deaths as the auto-pickup has missed it)

Children seem to be
Mary Ellen 1885- Working in India as a Nun
JOHN?? 1887- ( though there is a birth of a John to No father name and Margaret McDonald of SMEA(ton) which I understand is in the Creswick area where all the other births are)
James 1891-1961
William Aloysius 1893- 1965
Johanna C/Katherine 1895-1973
Patrick 1897-
Francis Joseph 1899-1962
Michael Stanislaus 1906-1980

They are all listed as alive in the obit (in birth order) and looking at the above death dates they should be. Which doesnt help us look up other obits. Nothing in Qld but a possibility for NSW. 1965 in Albury ie Albury/Wodonga Vic Border
MCDONALD PATRICK JOSEPH 8667/1965 JOHN MARGARET ALBURY

The AFL may have to shell out some $$ to find out

 

[Harry Hook]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203985686

Joseph O'Sullivan. 10th July 1935. Many years playing member Carlton Football Club.

It's amazing how research we do parallels each other. Look at the VFA goal kickers thread and I came to the same conclusion. I'll post the entirety of that post on this thread.

 

[Harry Hook]

I posted this about Joe O'Sullivan on the VFA Goalkicker's thread about a week ago:

"

I have a query about Joe Sullivan.

Is his name Joe Sullivan or Joe O'Sullivan?

This report of the Port Melbourne Standard of 22 April 1899

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165312583

says Port Melbourne would be missing Joe O'Sullivan in 1899 who had gone to Rutherglen

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165312583

which may be consistent with this Joe O'Sullivan of South Ports Cricket Club in the Standard of 7 January 1899

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165318918

which given that the Standard is a local newspaper, you'd presume they'd get it right.

When he did go to Rutherglen I cannot be sure because this match report of the Standard of 22 April 1899

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165312584

identifies Joe O'Sullivan as scoring for Port.

I'm not even sure his first name was Joe as 1910 Standard reports refer to a "Joe" ( ie his his preferred name not his real name) O'Sullivan
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164952305
That we are possibly talking about the same man is adverted to ( I won't say confirmed) by the Wikipedia reference to Joe Sullivan of Carlton which says he'd played for Port Melbourne AND Rutherglen before playing for Carlton between 1900- 1903 being the leading goalscorer there for 2 of his 3 years but intriguingly Wikipedia does not give a date of death.

I can't find a date of death for him anywhere.

Blueseum has him going to Boulder City in the Kalgoorlie league in 1903 as well as previously playing for Collingwood in the VFA and Collingwood Imperials.

Collingwood Forever has him debuting in 1895 playing 5 games there but does not refer to his Port Melbourne service. He was also stated to have been recruited from Collingwood Imperials. Collingwood Imperial Football Club was existing at least as early as 1893.

Though I can only see him a Sullivan from Carlton being granted a clearance in 1904 - not necessarily to Boulder

West Australian 11 May 1904 -
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article25088058


But this report of the Standard of 27 May 1905 again has a "Joe" O'Sullivan formerly a crack forward for Carlton playing for Port in 1905.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164441869

And this line up in the Standard lists OSullivan starting at CHF in 1905 ( as do numerous other reports)

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164439914

1906 reports have a Sullivan starting in centre for Port

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164439606

But interestingly this letter to the editor in the Standard in 1906 about "shamateurism"

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164440343
refers to O'Sullivan.


A J Sullivan was certainly cleared from Port to Carlton on 1900

Argus 26 April 1900
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9057522

So as far as I can track his records it went something like this:

Collingwood Imperils - From ???? to 1894
Collingwood - From 1895 to ??????
Port Melbourne - From ????? to 1898
Rutherglen - From ?????? to 1899
Carton - 1900 to 1903
WA ( presumably Boulder) 1904
Port Melbourne - 1905 ( which if he was born in 1877 makes him 28) - ????

It may be that he was alive as of 1933 given this lineup for a veteran's game

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article181741529

Indeed this player appears to be the same as the Carlton player of 1904. Cf the Sportsman of 19 August 1933

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article181740315


where it was said that he last played in 1904 for Carlton and as at 1933 resided in Port Melbourne and referred to him only as "Joe" Sullivan.

But the question remains was his name Sullivan or O'Sullivan.


I'd normally consider with some cynicism the press reports but the Standard was a good local paper for Port players ( almost as good as the Record for South Melbourne players) and there is the issue about DoB and DOD.

"

 

[rbartlett]

Here's a reply from Stephen Rodgers to you all, asking for assistance

"
I popped in to the Library this afternoon, just for primarily a brief look into
that infuriating Neeson/Briggs case.

On what I said previously, it definitely now seems that 26/7/83 guy isn't the
right bloke (from, for example, wife and kids in his death notices in the
West Australian - see attached) - but . . .

as I said, I knew that was a real long-shot! (but it was worth a try)

But other intriguing things emerged (which you already may be aware of).
You mentioned, in yours, the Kalgoorlie court case of 1948.
If you then look at the Kalgoorlie electoral roll, for 1949; there are just
2 Briggs - an Alfred and an Ivy!!
But they aren't living at the same address!!
The Alfred, is an Alfred Milton;
the Ivy is Ivy Margaret Ellen.

You'd think that Alfred - matching his full earlier name - would now be:
Alfred Carl Frank Briggs; wouldn't you.

BUT!!!!! of course, the Milton "ties in" with the 1950 car accident record, you noted,
of the son being Milton Kenneth Briggs!

(Another infuriating aspect: I felt I'd be able to get a resolution by tracing this
Milton Kenneth Briggs, born 1943. (Pretty distinctive name, right?)
But he is NEVER, not once! - on the Australian Electoral Rolls
(And it's not because he died as a youngster in WA - no WA death record,
up to 1971, in the online records.)
So where the hell is he? - I think you mentioned he was adopted; you wonder,
did he later find his real parents, drop Briggs, and take their name - something like that?

There's also issues with this Ivy Margaret Ellen Briggs. As you probably would have seen,
she shows up at Karrakatta with a 1974 death, but her age (70); just doesn't gel with the
newspaper article saying she's 39 in 1950, does it?

So, are these, or are they not, the right people???
But, geez!, it's Alfred and Ivy, there, on the Kalgoorlie electoral roll!!!
(it's an unbelievable coincidence, don't you think!)
I think I must be missing something! - I'd be rapt if you and the guys could solve this
super-annoying case, please.

Don't worry so much about Ross/Rosser. I can easily get the date-of-death
(I'm sure the 1945 guy, because of the parents and the Tulip surname thing, is the right bloke - no doubt!)

I can just ask Russell Holmesby, for these 3, from BDM :
- the new Richards NM date of birth for 1901
- the Ross date of death for 1945
- to confirm if Neeson is 5-6 or 15-6 for 1914.

Thanks! - good luck with Briggs/Neeson (my Xmas present?) "

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

If they had a criminal background they will not be in electoral roll.

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Francis "Frank" Cecil O'Connor - Melb 1947-48 (B: 6/11/1923) Orig club: Prahran WW2 Army

As per http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/notice/471942017 he died one week ago today - 13 Nov 2017

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

James "Jim" Arthur Greenham (Foots 1937-41, 1943-45) (B: 16/11/1915 Original club Footscray Tech O.B) Believed to have died in 1993 in QLD perhaps

..have just spoken to Jim Greenham's son in Queensland who will send me exact details "once he finds the paperwork" (definitely mid 1990s)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

..have just spoken to Jim Greenham's son in Queensland who will send me exact details "once he finds the paperwork" (definitely mid 1990s)

Text from Eric Greenham - "Jim Greenham died 20 June 1993, age 77 - his nephew Laurie Sandilands also captained the doggies at one time"

 

[rbartlett]

More info from Stephen Rogers regarding Neeson/Briggs search


Just following up on that Electoral Roll check -

for 1949 / Kalgoorlie / Boulder;
we have:
Briggs Alfred Milton at
18 Davis St. a pipe fitter
Briggs Ivy Margaret Ellen at
2G Hamilton St. home duties


Then also, in 1949, at a different time of the year -
for Fremantle / South Frem. :
Briggs Alfred at 14 Daly St.
a truck driver
Briggs Ivy Margaret Ellen at
14 Daly St home duties


So at least that's something!! -
it confirms, with the address, what we see from the 1950 car accident report, the researchers uncovered :

that Ivy Margaret Ellen
IS the right woman -
despite that discrepancy with her age, that becomes apparent with the 1974 death record in
Karrakatta
cf. the earlier newspaper report, of 1950.


Talking about that death, on
9 - 7 - 74, that we get from
Karrakatta - there are quite a few death notices for her in
The West Australian over the next few days :

Briggs
Ivy Margaret Ellen
of 43 Newport Way, Balga

mother, and mother-in-law of
Ken and Beverley.

aunt of Bill, Hazel, children

sister and sister-in-law of
Gert and Mac

sister of Herbert and Hilda (dec'd)

aunt of Gwen, Lionel, Robert, Donald, Phillip, Alan, Lionel (jnr.)

sister of Alma; aunt of Len, Win and Olive

and also a message to Aunty Ivy from Bill, Val, John and Joe


Isn't it tragic, that any one of these people would know, from the family history, what happened to Alfred -
but how to get in touch with them!

Of course I tried to match up Ken
(as either just Kenneth; or Milton Kenneth in a/w the newspaper)
with Beverley - but no luck; on any Electoral rolls!

Why can't they just be normal bloody people - and be on the rolls!!

But again, maybe I'm missing something! - and your other researchers can crack this case, from that info.;
so can you please pass on all of the above to them.

(Also - I checked with the
Kalgoorlie Boulder Cem.
but they don't have any
Alfred Briggs - but I thought that was a long-shot because he seemed, didn't he, to be there for only a short time.)

Hopefully someone can resolve this!

 

[GreyCrow]

Just a point. I recall Neeson was a truck driver in his WW2 record.

Was there a corresponding Neeson in Kalgoorlie Electoral Rolls at the same times?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

By the end of this trek Rhett (if it happens,) you'll probably never want to see the surnames Briggs and Neeson again.

 

[ThePope]

Not sure if the AFL already knows, but just got notified on Twitter by Rusty Jacko that Michael Blees, St Kilda ruckman from early 80s died age 22 in 1985. A bit of digging found the headstone http://www.ozgenonline.com/~vic_cem/frankston/frankston_lawn/0161.jpg

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

More info from Stephen Rogers regarding Neeson/Briggs search
...
Talking about that death, on
9 - 7 - 74, that we get from
Karrakatta - there are quite a few death notices for her in
The West Australian over the next few days :

Briggs
Ivy Margaret Ellen
of 43 Newport Way, Balga

mother, and mother-in-law of
Ken and Beverley.

aunt of Bill, Hazel, children

sister and sister-in-law of
Gert and Mac

sister of Herbert and Hilda (dec'd)

aunt of Gwen, Lionel, Robert, Donald, Phillip, Alan, Lionel (jnr.)

sister of Alma; aunt of Len, Win and Olive

and also a message to Aunty Ivy from Bill, Val, John and Joe

Isn't it tragic, that any one of these people would know, from the family history, what happened to Alfred -
but how to get in touch with them!

...
Hopefully someone can resolve this!

A lead to pass on Steve Rodgers - Alma Seale 1900-1975 (sister of Ivy Margaret above) married Horace Leslie Joyce (1904-1964) and had children Lenard, Winifred and Olive as per death notice above

http://www.wamarriage.info/ shows Winifred Mae Joyce married William Clive McBean in 1956 and from electoral rolls on Ancestry we can see they moved to Frankston, Victoria. In 1980 they are at 26 Jacana Ave and looking at WhitePages there is still a W M McBean listed at that address. She was born in 1931 so is getting on now but hopefully might remember her Uncle Alfred and Aunt Ivy

 

[rbartlett]

I've passed #413 and #412 onto Stephen R. Thanks.

 

[rbartlett]

Not sure if the AFL already knows, but just got notified on Twitter by Rusty Jacko that Michael Blees, St Kilda ruckman from early 80s died age 22 in 1985. A bit of digging found the headstone http://www.ozgenonline.com/~vic_cem/frankston/frankston_lawn/0161.jpg

The AFL weren't aware of his passing.So thanks.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

The AFL weren't aware of his passing.So thanks.

Even though it was published in the Footy Record back in the '80's?

 

[35Daicos]

The AFL weren't aware of his passing.So thanks.

Even though it was published in the Footy Record back in the '80's?

When I saw that post the other day (from ThePope) I checked and noted that AustralianFootball.com and (even) Wikipedia had him as having died in 1985 so that does seem a bit odd!!

 

[ThePope]

When I saw that post the other day (from ThePope) I checked and noted that AustralianFootball.com and (even) Wikipedia had him as having died in 1985 so that does seem a bit odd!!

We (both Gigs at Aust Footy, and me at wikipedia) updated it that day.

Even though it was published in the Footy Record back in the '80's?

It was The Saint newsletter, not the Record. But the surprising thing about that is that Russell Holmesby was the editor of The Saint, but his Encyclopedia of AFL players didn't have the death date listed.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

We (both Gigs at Aust Footy, and me at wikipedia) updated it that day.


It was The Saint newsletter, not the Record. But the surprising thing about that is that Russell Holmesby was the editor of The Saint, but his Encyclopedia of AFL players didn't have the death date listed.

That seems quite bizarre.

How could the editor of the league's encyclopedia overlook such an important notice?

But then, I noticed something.
The encyclopedia don't have dates of death in its editions.

 

[35Daicos]

We (both Gigs at Aust Footy, and me at wikipedia) updated it that day.


It was The Saint newsletter, not the Record. But the surprising thing about that is that Russell Holmesby was the editor of The Saint, but his Encyclopedia of AFL players didn't have the death date listed.

Thanks for that explanation. I did look at The Encyclopedia as well the other day and noticed that it wasn't mentioned. Surprising indeed that it didn't make it into the book; a player who had played in recent times dying at the age of just 22 is obviously a very sad story.

 

[rbartlett]

Stephen R replied regarding Neeson/Briggs
He followed up WHL lead regarding Winifred.

Extract below
Hi Rhett,

Unfortunately no breakthrough!
I actually went to the Frankston address. Win McBean wasn't home.
But I left a note, and she got back to me within 24 hours, so that was good.

She tried to be helpful, but (as you said) she's quite elderly, and was pretty vague.

She only vaguely remembers Alfred Briggs. She didn't know anything about him as a footballer; but she did remember, as a young girl of 11 or 12, staying with him once in Kalgoorlie.
She pretty much confirmed that he and Ivy were together for only a short time.

I tried to ask her about Ken and Beverley - but, it was weird;
I think she said Milton (who she referred to him as; remember that Milton Kenneth in a/w the newspaper article) entered a convent!! Maybe I misheard that.
(I'm still shattered that Milton Kenneth, or just as Kenneth; and with or without Beverley - never showed up in the Electoral roll! -
bloody hell!)

I asked her again about Alfred, and - almost as a throwaway line - she said, I think he 'may have' gone to Adelaide.
On a whim, I later checked Centennial Park which, as you know, you can check online -
and there was an Alfred Briggs there, dying 13-4-67.

I thought it was too good to be true! - and it was.
Our guy needed to be 52, and this chap was 73 (I later saw at the Lib.); just as the Karrakatta bloke we saw 'should' have been 69, but was only 60.

So we're still no closer!! Who knows if that SA speculation is accurate or not!
I pressed her again, if there was anyone in WA she could contact, to find out what we're after -
and she said she'll try and get in touch with a cousin there, to find out something more definite.

But I wouldn't count on it!
It will be a miracle, don't you think, if she were to get back to me with the date!
(Also asked - if she could remember - to ask what name he died under.)

So that's that for now.

 

[GreyCrow]

Stephen R replied regarding Neeson/Briggs
He followed up WHL lead regarding Winifred.

Extract below
Hi Rhett,

Unfortunately no breakthrough!
I actually went to the Frankston address. Win McBean wasn't home.
But I left a note, and she got back to me within 24 hours, so that was good.

She tried to be helpful, but (as you said) she's quite elderly, and was pretty vague.

She only vaguely remembers Alfred Briggs. She didn't know anything about him as a footballer; but she did remember, as a young girl of 11 or 12, staying with him once in Kalgoorlie.
She pretty much confirmed that he and Ivy were together for only a short time.

I tried to ask her about Ken and Beverley - but, it was weird;
I think she said Milton (who she referred to him as; remember that Milton Kenneth in a/w the newspaper article) entered a convent!! Maybe I misheard that.
(I'm still shattered that Milton Kenneth, or just as Kenneth; and with or without Beverley - never showed up in the Electoral roll! -
bloody hell!)

I asked her again about Alfred, and - almost as a throwaway line - she said, I think he 'may have' gone to Adelaide.
On a whim, I later checked Centennial Park which, as you know, you can check online -
and there was an Alfred Briggs there, dying 13-4-67.

I thought it was too good to be true! - and it was.
Our guy needed to be 52, and this chap was 73 (I later saw at the Lib.); just as the Karrakatta bloke we saw 'should' have been 69, but was only 60.

So we're still no closer!! Who knows if that SA speculation is accurate or not!
I pressed her again, if there was anyone in WA she could contact, to find out what we're after -
and she said she'll try and get in touch with a cousin there, to find out something more definite.

But I wouldn't count on it!
It will be a miracle, don't you think, if she were to get back to me with the date!
(Also asked - if she could remember - to ask what name he died under.)

So that's that for now.

There is a Benedictine Monastery in New Norcia

 

[the croucher]

I have found another player to query: Fred Harrison (St Kilda) 1 match 1915
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Fred+Harrison/3424
The birth and death dates given on that page are exactly the same as those for Frederick George Harrison who was born in NSW and died in NSW. Each of the two records (birth #28110/1893 death #27850/1979) indexed at the NSW BDMs website
show father as Frederick and mother as Rose

His World War One record identifies his next of kin as mother Rose.
https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/196299

An article published in the Sporting Globe in 1928 goes into great detail about his long and successful career as a marksman with rifle.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/183964446

The articles about his single VFL match identify him by surname only, and that he was from the Beverley football club.
The Argus: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1527407
VFL Record: http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/131863 (page 28)

His long career as a competition marksman does not seem to match that of a person who plays football in another state, and the detailed NSW links seem at odds with being a resident of Victoria.

Oh, ... and of course, how do we know what his initial or given name is - only surname found so far,
no specific evidence supporting i.d. as Fred !

 

[ThePope]

He was shooting in NSW a month before his VFL game, so I think you are right in thinking that they've mixed up 2 people. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article129348809

One possible lead is via Beverley. An article in 1914 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89991049 lists Beverley players who's gone onto League, and includes Fitzroy's Harrison - who is Arthur Charles "Artie" Harrison (8 February 1893 – 3 May 1917).

Vic birth records have Arthur Charles being born in Collingwood in 1893 to Harry and Elizabeth Cooke. Thinking that siblings often play for the same team, there is an Albert Edward Harrison, born 1897 in Carlton. Arthur died in WW1, but his death notice says only son... check the death list, Albert died age 1. damn it.

So back to Beverley. It seems like Harrison made his debut for Beverley in late May 1914 - "Rush and Harrison were tried and played fine football for their first game." http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article7237628
Thinking that the Fred could be correct, and you'd be making your debut aged between 16 and 23, that puts his year of birth between 1898 and 1891. There are 8 Fred/Fredericks, plus 4 Alfred/Wilfreds born in Vic in that time. Can't find any permit application in either direction to narrow down the first/middle names initials either.

 

[ThePope]

He married a Violet May and they lived in the same house in Eleanor St Footscray from 1949 until at least 1980
I found her grave at Altona Cemetery (http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search/) and then found:
Surname Given Names Date of Death Cemetery Service Type Service Date
SHARP Hyden William 18/09/1998 Altona Memorial Park Cremation 23/09/1998

Looks like a typo in the name and could well be him....

Looks like that's him, but I think Violet May is his mum, not wife. Her death in 1989 is listed as age 97 https://billiongraves.com/grave/Violet-May-Sharp/10047800, so that puts her born in 1892, 28 years before H(a)yd(e)n Sharp. His birth record matches, and provides a third spelling of his first name
1920, 31340, Sharp, Hayden Charles William, Gilbert Arthur, Tucker Violet May, Footscray
No listing of any similar Sharp in the marriage list, but it only goes to 1942, when he was only 22.

Football wise, he came equal 2nd in the Gardiner Medal in 1939. http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/133829