Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[sclues]

His first marriage can’t have lasted long (even in 1954 he's not living with his spouse), and (if it is him) he ended up living with (and almost certainly married to) Dawn Hope (nee Cummings) at Mount Isa, Queensland. The electoral roll had them together there in 1977 and 1980. She died and was buried at Mount Isa in 1982.

I chatted with the Collingwood club historian about Ivan Clues a while back, and it's simply not known as to whether or not he is still alive.

Searching for clues on Ivan Clues...

The only record of him in any trees on Ancestry shows a different birth date to what accepted records have. The league / Encyclopedia has Clues born on 10 May 1929, while this tree has him born on 5 October 1929.

The following is a bit of speculation on my behalf, but given Ancestry doesn't allow living people to be searched in trees, and this is the Clues family tree, my mind is turning to one of two conclusions: either Clues has died and the tree owner hasn't listed or made public his death date (it is a private tree), or the tree owner is not particularly au fait with Ancestry and has added Clues manually recently without unticking the 'deceased' button which Ancestry would presume when you are adding someone born in 1929. Not sure, but there might be more out there.

View attachment 1912774

I guess the only other explanation is that no one knows his death date, if it's already happened?

See below: I'm not convinced the Ivan Noel Clues from Collingwood and the Ivan Clues from Queensland are the same guy.

View attachment 1912780

There really is nothing else in the Ancestry records to go off, other than the fact he got married in 1949:

View attachment 1912781

The only thing making me think that the Collingwood and Queensland person might be one and the same is that it appears Clues didn't list his middle name in his marriage certificate, and it was added by an Ancestry user after the fact, so perhaps he was inconsistent in applying his middle name to official documents.

Regardless, I'm none the wiser right now.

P.S. Shout-out to Collingwood Forever who have written a wonderfully detailed article on a two-game player!

hi … I have some information about Ivan. He was my uncle and he died in 2004. I’ve only just applied for his death certificate to see if it has a definitive date of death. All I currently have is a letter from the NSW Coroner stating that Ivan died ‘sometime between 07/04/2004 and 14/04/2004.

I recall that Ivan lived in Mt Isa, working in the mines up there but there are long periods of time where he was not in touch with his family and he was living in Surrey Hills, NSW when he died.

 

[35Daicos]

hi … I have some information about Ivan. He was my uncle and he died in 2004. I’ve only just applied for his death certificate to see if it has a definitive date of death. All I currently have is a letter from the NSW Coroner stating that Ivan died ‘sometime between 07/04/2004 and 14/04/2004.

I recall that Ivan lived in Mt Isa, working in the mines up there but there are long periods of time where he was not in touch with his family and he was living in Surrey Hills, NSW when he died.

Thank you very much indeed for that. I really appreciate you making contact. I will pass that on to the relevant people at Collingwood. If you do find out the exact date of death please let us know.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Barry Cougle (Geelong) died in 2018 with death date from his grave shown as 13 April 2018
Full name was Barry Guilford Frith Cougle

Oliver G

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Brian Lambert (Haw) died on 26 Dec 2017 - as per cemetery record from Springvale Botanical Cemetery
Full name was Brian Francis Lambert
Oliver G

 

[GreyCrow]

Table update with our most recent new finds. I also added Ray Hutchins and Ernie Collihole to the missing DOD list.

Missing dates of death for V/AFL footballers as at 28 February 2024



Possibly living (born pre-1930) V/AFL footballers as at 28 February 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Angus Abbey	Angus Maxwell Abbey	15 Nov 1925	Foot 1949–54
Jack Atkinson	[?]	23 Jun 1928	Rich 1950
Lindsay Baglin	Lindsay Gordon Baglin	2 Mar 1929	Foot 1947 NM 1949
Des Bell	Desmond Clyde Bell	23 May 1923	Melb 1946–48	⬥ Alive in Aug 2022
Ivan Clues	Ivan Noel Clues	10 May 1929	Coll 1951	⬥ Married in 1949, likely divorced by 1954 ⬥ Appears to have been living in Mt Isa in 1980 ⬥ Collingwood FC unsure on his current whereabouts
Greg Dean	[?]	14 Oct 1928	StK 1949–50
Norm Edwards	[?]	23 Oct 1928	Foot 1950–51
Arthur Fitt	Arthur Aloysius Fitt Jr.	12 Feb 1928	Fitz 1950
Nick Gelavis	Nikolas Gelavis	15 Jun 1929	SM 1953–54 Foot 1954
Brian Gilmore	Brian R. Gilmore	1 Dec 1929	Ess 1950–53 StK 1955
Max Glass	Maxwell Herbert Glass	2 Oct 1925	SM 1945	⬥ Last confirmed existence in Jan 1999 (possibly near Coffs Harbour) ⬥ Living in Rye, 1980 (electoral roll), has a son also named Maxwell (John)
Eddie Goodger	Edmund James Goodger	10 Mar 1929	Fitz 1949–58
Gordon Green	Gordon Stanley Green	31 May 1925	NM 1942	⬥ Alive in Jul 2018
Barry Griffiths	Barry McIntosh Griffiths	12 Jul 1929	Haw 1950–52	⬥ Originally from Canterbury ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for East. Suburban Churches ⬥ Possibly thought to be Barry Joseph Griffiths (unlikely) ⬥ Listed in 1953 article as 22 y.o., conflicts with 1929 DOB ⬥ Transferred from Oakleigh to Albury in 1954 ⬥ Played with Acton in Canberra in 1959 ⬥ Strong match for Barry McIntosh re: locations etc.
Doug Guy	Douglas George Guy	21 Nov 1929	Carl 1950–53
Les Jarry	[?]	28 Sep 1928	SM 1948–49
Andy Larkins	[?]	30 Oct 1928	Geel 1950
Greg Lourey	[?]	1 Aug 1927	Melb 1948; 1950 Fitz 1951–52
Jack MacDonald	Jack R. MacDonald	16 May 1927	Haw 1951–53	⬥ Originally from Carey Grammar / Camberwell ⬥ Also played for Creswick and Glen Iris ⬥ Coached at Powelltown
Jim Miller	James Henry Miller	30 May 1919	Foot 1938–48	⬥ Alive in Jun 2023
Tom Miller	[?]	3 Jul 1928	Foot 1947–50
Wally Nash	[?]	10 Jun 1929	Haw 1953–54
Frank Pattison	Francis Xavier Pattison	29 Sep 1928	StK 1951
Fred Payne	Frederick Ronald Payne	4 Feb 1927	Ess 1949–53	⬥ Alive in Feb 2024
Harry Paynter	Henry Charles Paynter	17 Sep 1927	Coll 1950	⬥ Alive in Feb 2024
Jim Rattray	[?]	22 Aug 1929	Haw 1949–52
Bill Redmond	William George Arthur Redmond	29 May 1927	Carl 1947–48
Cliff Riley	Clifford David Riley	2 Feb 1927	StK 1951–52
Don Scott	Donald Rex Scott	5 Nov 1929	SM 1950–54
Jack Storey	John Ivan Storey	1 Jul 1929	Foot 1948–49
Jack Taylor	[?]	9 May 1924	Haw 1945	⬥ Originally from Melbourne High School ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for Glen Ormond
Bob Templeton	[?]	25 Oct 1927	Foot 1947–49; 1953
Jack Thomson	[?]	22 Jan 1929	Melb 1949–53
Ron Warren	[?]	5 Oct 1928	Geel 1949
Kevin Webb	[?]	2 Oct 1928	Rich 1949 Melb 1951
Brian Williamson	[?]	9 Dec 1928	NM 1947

Les Jarry aka Leslie Alexander Jarry passed away 16/10/2024

Herald Sun

Leslie Alexander Jarry
28/9/1928 - 16/10/2024
Passed away peacefully at Footscray Hospital aged 96.
Much loved husband of Marj (dec).

SUMMARY : Les Jarry DOB 28/9/1928 passed away 16/10/2024 Birth Name Leslie Alexander Jarry

Oliver G

 

[35Daicos]

Les Jarry aka Leslie Alexander Jarry passed away 16/10/2024

Herald Sun

Leslie Alexander Jarry
28/9/1928 - 16/10/2024
Passed away peacefully at Footscray Hospital aged 96.
Much loved husband of Marj (dec).

SUMMARY : Les Jarry DOB 28/9/1928 passed away 16/10/2024 Birth Name Leslie Alexander Jarry

Oliver G

I see Harry Paynter is still on one of those lists, but he died back in April: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/recent-deaths.1186497/page-31#post-83081026


His Wiki page hasn't been updated either, so can somebody please do that.

 

[GreyCrow]

I see Harry Paynter is still on one of those lists, but he died back in April: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/recent-deaths.1186497/page-31#post-83081026
View attachment 2163513

His Wiki page hasn't been updated either, so can somebody please do that.

Bob Templeton is still alive on the list Gibbsy - but passed July

(just to stop people searching )

 

[Gibbsy]

Bob Templeton is still alive on the list Gibbsy - but passed July

(just to stop people searching )

Ta. I haven't updated that in a while, will get to it tonight!

 

[Gibbsy]

Table update. It's been a while! Clues has moved from the 'possibly living' to the 'missing DOD' list. The rest are all moves from the 'possibly living' to the 'recently confirmed' lists (RIP).

Hopefully these notes give people the impetus to have another crack at some of these longer cold cases!

Missing dates of death for V/AFL footballers as at 16 November 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Harry Brown	Harold Francis Brown	[?] [?] 1902	StK 1927	⬥ Thought by AFL to be Henry John Brown, DOB 16 Oct 1903 (unlikely) ⬥ Played for Caulfield and Hawksburn prior to StK ⬥ H. Brown transferred StK > Camberwell ⬥ H. F. Brown (same guy?) went C'well > Coll. District ⬥ Interment date is 17 Mar 1975; DOD possibly 13 Mar 1975 ⬥ This puts DOB some time between 13 Mar and 31 Dec 1902 ⬥ Both the DOB and DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificates
Otto Buck	Samuel Otto John Buck	15 Nov 1876	Carl 1897	⬥ Last confirmed existence in Mildura, 1917 (electoral roll) ⬥ Extensive notes on Ancestry here but no DOD ⬥ Did not die in 1946 as some trees claim (different Samuel Buck)
Jack Cliff	Jack Louis Cliff	23 May 1919	StK 1940–42	⬥ Played for West Broken Hill prior to StK ⬥ AFL/SR says: became a 'gangster', killed in unmarked grave ⬥ Last confirmed existence in Elwood, 1980 (electoral roll)
Ivan Clues	Ivan Noel Clues	10 May 1929	Coll 1951	⬥ His niece confirmed that Clues died between 7 Apr 2004 and 14 Apr 2004 in Surry Hills, NSW
Frank Corby	Eugene Francis Corby	24 Dec 1924	Coll 1948	⬥ Lawrence William Corby was Frank's brother, not a pseudonym ⬥ Previous Coll FC contact with family did not reveal DOD
Fred Coulsell	Frederick Rowland Coulsell	17 Dec 1905	NM 1927 Ess 1931	⬥ Ancestry tree shows DOD of 16 Jun 1997 at Beenleigh, QLD ⬥ DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificate
Bobby Craig	Robert Ritchie Craig	29 Mar 1882	Melb 1902	⬥ Born in Williamstown (Aus), moved to Scotland by 1901 (census) ⬥ Departed Liverpool for Argentina in 1913, married in Scotland in 1914 ⬥ Brother Andrew buried in Dromana (Aus) in 1982
Ray Hutchins	Raymond Ferris Hutchins	23 Mar 1929	Melb 1950–51	⬥ Obituary post from Melbourne FC on 3 Feb 2021 mentions his passing but without an exact date
Charlie Jenkins	William Charles Jenkins	21 Aug 1874	Fitz 1898	⬥ Thought by AFL to be Charles Herbert Jenkins, DOB 17 Jun 1878, cousin of Ern Jenkins (unlikely) ⬥ Jenkins often called himself Charles William instead of William Charles ⬥ He transferred to Fitzroy in 1894 ⬥ Ancestry tree shows DOD of 1 Jun 1956 ⬥ DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificate
Edmund Kirwin	Edmund Kirwin	31 Mar 1876	StK 1898	⬥ Kirwin's brother Maurice died in 1960 ⬥ Kirwin was an established cricketer for St Kilda CC; CricketArchive records list an Edward Kirwan (diff spelling both names), DOB 1872, DOD 20 Feb 1929 ⬥ Michael Kirwen (again, diff spelling) listed as brother of Maurice, died in 1952, but no mention of Edmund, despite the fact they were also brothers
Tom Lee	Thomas Francis Lee	11 Dec 1874	Coll 1897–98	⬥ Lee's mother Elizabeth appears to have died on the day of his birth ⬥ There are no death notices for any of his relatives that have died ⬥ Ancestry tress and death notices suggest he died before 1915, possibly before 1904
George Lockwood	George Lockwood	6 Dec 1872	Geel 1899–1901 Coll 1902–04	⬥ AFL/SR says: possible death year of 1946(unlikely) ⬥ A George Hislop Lockwood died overseas in war in 1917 (inconclusive) ⬥ Lockwood lived until at least 1944 according to death notice of relative ⬥ Lockwood's twin Teddy died in 1953 ⬥ The Lockwood lineage looks as so
Joe Marchant	[?]	[?] c. 1884	StK 1904	⬥ Thought by AFL to be John Albert Marchant, DOB 11 Sep 1884 in NSW (unlikely) ⬥ No transfer details; "The Encyclopedia" lists him as Joseph Marchant
Jack McKenzie	John James McKenzie	19 Aug 1908	Ess 1929	⬥ Son of John Joseph 'Dookie' McKenzie (1881–1946) ⬥ Married Lorna Davis Ireland in 1933, divorced in 1939 ⬥ Listed as deceased in father Dookie's death notice, so McKenzie's death is presumed between Jul 1939 and Mar 1946
Alf Neeson	Alfred Carl Frank Neeson (later: Alfred Milton Briggs)	15 Jun 1914	Fitz 1935–36 Haw 1936–38	⬥ DOB thought in early research to be 5 June 1914 due to war records (proven false via Vic BDM) ⬥ Joined Army in early 1935 and discharged later that year ⬥ Was arrested in 1939 for stealing a car, changed his name at some point around this time to Alfred Briggs ⬥ Married Ivy McRae/Seale in 1940 as Alfred M. Briggs ⬥ Potentially interchanging use of Briggs/Neeson names, was in WA goldfields region in late 1940s ⬥ Former wife Ivy died in 1974 ⬥ Further evidence suggesting Alf swapped between Briggs & Neeson throughout his life ⬥ AFL/SR says: suggest Alf used Alfred Milton Briggs as a full name; Alfred and Ivy on Kalgoorlie electoral roll in 1949 ⬥ Further SR research; no Briggs in Kalgoorlie cemetery ⬥ Alma Seale (sister of Ivy Briggs)'s daughter Winifred moved to Frankston before 1980 ⬥ Winifred contacted Rhett in Nov 2017 but only vague memories of Alf ⬥ SR: No response from New Norcia Monastery (lead from Winifred) ⬥ Genealogist with history of researching Alf says he married at least once, possibly twice more after Ivy, and Milton Kenneth Briggs is possibly an adopted son
Mick O'Hagan	Michael Joseph O'Hagan	22 Jan 1878	StK 1897	⬥ Michael Joseph O'Hagan studied pharmacy at Melb Uni in 1895; mentioned in court case in 1908 as being from Nathalia ⬥ His sister, Mary Terese, died in 1970 aged 90; death notice lists Mick as deceased ⬥ Some questioning over whether Michael Joseph is our man given lack of quality of early St Kilda player records ⬥ Given contemporaries and schooling, confident that he is the right man
George Prismall	George Henry Prismall	10 Mar 1915	Ess 1935	⬥ Served in British Merchant Navy during WWII ⬥ Mother was Gladys Prismall (1893–1980), who didn't marry ⬥ His sister, Phyllis Catherine, died in 2014 ⬥ Last existence, living in Earls Court (Aussie hotspot) circa 1947–48
Sam Reid	Samuel Alexander Reid	17 Jun 1872	Carl 1897	⬥ Parents were likely James Reid and Ann Eliza Reid (nee Ralston) ⬥ Probably not the Samuel Reid 50 Samuel Reid Age 35 Ht 188cm Wt 85kg Pos. Def Career Season Last 5 D 12.4 3star K 6.5 3star HB 5.9 4star M 3.1 3star T 3.0 5star MG 176.3 3star No current season stats available D 12.6 4star K 4.0 2star HB 8.6 5star M 3.4 4star T 4.6 5star that died in 1949 and may have lived in Japan (different parents to those listed on Blueseum)
Arch Robinson	Archibald Robinson	9 Jul 1890	Rich 1911	⬥ Served in AIF in WWI; Army records suggest born in 1888, not 1890 ⬥ Divorced Edith Robinson Whitehead in 1921 ⬥ Was often misnamed as Robertson
Ray Ross	Raymond Paul Ross	2 May 1900	Ess 1921	⬥ Ross is not Rich/StK player Raymond Roberts Ross from similar era ⬥ Potential that Raymond Paul Ross changed his name to Raymond Paul Elliott and died in 1980 (same mother) ⬥ More ruling out of other people (aka Raymond Roberts Ross) ⬥ Permit for an R. Ross going from Ess > NM in Rd 4, 1922 ⬥ Raymond Paul Ross was not a jeweller listed in 1921 (different guy)
Jim Smith	James William Smith	11 Feb 1887	SM 1906	⬥ Listed as from Marylebone (Geelong Juniors) in "The Encyclopedia" ⬥ Born to John Smith and Mary Williams ⬥ Likely ruled out James Smith, DOB 1887, DOD 1963 in Geelong ⬥ Returned to Geelong Junior Association in 1907 ⬥ Possibly captain of East Geelong from 1910–1919 ⬥ J Smith is cleared from East Geel to Eastern District in 1923
Alby Williams	Albert Joseph Williams	3 Aug 1916	NM 1943	⬥ Married Doris Vivienne Williams (nee Jackman) in 1940 ⬥ When Doris passed away in 1964, Alby was still listed as alive in her death notice
Bill Woods	William Cross Woods	[?] [?] 1881	Geel 1909	⬥ Thought by AFL to be William Henry Woods, DOB 31 Aug 1890 (unlikely) ⬥ Then believed to be William Woods, born 1890 in Portarlington, enlisted in First AIF in 1915 and returned to Aus in 1919 ⬥ Potential cremation date 6 July 1972 in Springvale (unlikely to be our man) ⬥ Initial scepticism from AFL/SR; mention of brother called Ike ⬥ Potential match of William Cross Woods (1881–1959) ⬥ Third son of Emma and Isaac Woods (potentially William's parents) died in 1891 ⬥ Discovery of alternate surname Burgess which seemed to be used interchangeably with Woods ⬥ DOD of William Cross Woods listed as 3 Aug 1959 in Geelong ⬥ Info on William's son Isaac ⬥ Detailed family tree of William Cross Woods, refuting AFL/SR likely incorrect beliefs that he was still William Henry Woods ⬥ AFL/SR still pushing back on William Cross ⬥ Burial info on Woods' potential wife Adeline Alice ⬥ Suggestion for AFL to purchase Woods' mother's death certificate to glean more information

Possibly living (born pre-1930) V/AFL footballers as at 16 November 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Angus Abbey	Angus Maxwell Abbey	15 Nov 1925	Foot 1949–54
Jack Atkinson	[?]	23 Jun 1928	Rich 1950
Lindsay Baglin	Lindsay Gordon Baglin	2 Mar 1929	Foot 1947 NM 1949
Des Bell	Desmond Clyde Bell	23 May 1923	Melb 1946–48	⬥ Alive in Aug 2022
Norm Edwards	[?]	23 Oct 1928	Foot 1950–51
Arthur Fitt	Arthur Aloysius Fitt Jr.	12 Feb 1928	Fitz 1950
Nick Gelavis	Nikolas Gelavis	15 Jun 1929	SM 1953–54 Foot 1954
Max Glass	Maxwell Herbert Glass	2 Oct 1925	SM 1945	⬥ Last confirmed existence in Jan 1999 (possibly near Coffs Harbour) ⬥ Living in Rye, 1980 (electoral roll), has a son also named Maxwell (John)
Eddie Goodger	Edmund James Goodger	10 Mar 1929	Fitz 1949–58
Gordon Green	Gordon Stanley Green	31 May 1925	NM 1942	⬥ Alive in Jul 2018
Barry Griffiths	Barry McIntosh Griffiths	12 Jul 1929	Haw 1950–52	⬥ Originally from Canterbury ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for East. Suburban Churches ⬥ Possibly thought to be Barry Joseph Griffiths (unlikely) ⬥ Listed in 1953 article as 22 y.o., conflicts with 1929 DOB ⬥ Transferred from Oakleigh to Albury in 1954 ⬥ Played with Acton in Canberra in 1959 ⬥ Strong match for Barry McIntosh re: locations etc.
Doug Guy	Douglas George Guy	21 Nov 1929	Carl 1950–53
Andy Larkins	[?]	30 Oct 1928	Geel 1950
Greg Lourey	[?]	1 Aug 1927	Melb 1948; 1950 Fitz 1951–52
Jack MacDonald	Jack R. MacDonald	16 May 1927	Haw 1951–53	⬥ Originally from Carey Grammar / Camberwell ⬥ Also played for Creswick and Glen Iris ⬥ Coached at Powelltown
Jim Miller	James Henry Miller	30 May 1919	Foot 1938–48	⬥ Alive in Jun 2023
Tom Miller	[?]	3 Jul 1928	Foot 1947–50
Frank Pattison	Francis Xavier Pattison	29 Sep 1928	StK 1951
Fred Payne	Frederick Ronald Payne	4 Feb 1927	Ess 1949–53	⬥ Alive in Feb 2024
Bill Redmond	William George Arthur Redmond	29 May 1927	Carl 1947–48
Cliff Riley	Clifford David Riley	2 Feb 1927	StK 1951–52
Don Scott	Donald Rex Scott	5 Nov 1929	SM 1950–54
Jack Storey	John Ivan Storey	1 Jul 1929	Foot 1948–49
Jack Taylor	[?]	9 May 1924	Haw 1945	⬥ Originally from Melbourne High School ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for Glen Ormond
Jack Thomson	[?]	22 Jan 1929	Melb 1949–53
Ron Warren	[?]	5 Oct 1928	Geel 1949
Kevin Webb	[?]	2 Oct 1928	Rich 1949 Melb 1951
Brian Williamson	[?]	9 Dec 1928	NM 1947

Recently confirmed DODs and/or DOBs (since 28 February 2024)

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	D.O.D.	Career	Notes
Ernie Collihole	Ernest James Collihole	26 Dec 1930	14 Sep 1985	SM 1950–51	Image confirmation of date on Find a Grave
Greg Dean	Gregory Winspear Dean	14 Oct 1928	20 Apr 2024	StK 1949–50	Death notice
Brian Gilmore	Brian Rupert Gilmore	1 Dec 1929	2 Jul 2024	Ess 1950–53 StK 1955	Death notice
Les Jarry	Leslie Alexander Jarry	28 Sep 1928	16 Oct 2024	SM 1948–49	Death notice
Wally Nash	Walter Edward Nash	10 Jun 1929	20 Jun 2024	Haw 1953–54	Death notice
Harry Paynter	Henry Charles Paynter	17 Sep 1927	9 Apr 2024	Coll 1950	Funeral notice
Jim Rattray	George James Rattray	22 Aug 1929	15 Sep 2014	Haw 1949–52	Cemetery listing
Bob Templeton	John Robert Templeton	25 Oct 1927	16 Jul 2024	Foot 1947–49; 1953	Death notice

---

Missing DOBs V/AFL footballers as at 16 November 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	D.O.D.	Career	Notes
Stewart Anderson	Glen Stewart Anderson	1910	7 Aug 1962	StK 1933–35 NM 1937–38
Harry Brown	Harold Francis Brown	1902	1975	StK 1927	See DOD list
Dick Casey	Richard James Casey	c. 1881	16 Apr 1919	SM 1905–12
Morrie Davidson	Maurice Davidson	1904	11 Jul 1970	NM 1930
Bill Hennington	William Hennington	c. 1891	11 Jul 1964	SM 1914
Jim Schellnack	James Schellnack	c. 1880	24 May 1968	SM 1904

 

[Oliver G]

Can confirm Angus Abbey and Jim Miller are alive as of November 2024.

 

[GreyCrow]

Nick Gelavis has a great-grandson playing in Perth and he is noted as '' of the Footscray Gelavis''

If anyone has FB maybe contact him?

University PFL player Sam Gelavis forced to retire after ...​

View attachment 1731743080116.webp
CODE Sports
https://www.codesports.com.au › Afl › State-leagues




13 Sept 2024 — His great uncle Nick even played for Footscray and South Melbourne during the 1950s. “Growing up in such a rich football heritage, the sport .

 

[stemline]

There's a quick win available as Wally Nash appears on both the possibly living and confirmed DOD lists.

 

[Gibbsy]

There's a quick win available as Wally Nash appears on both the possibly living and confirmed DOD lists.

Heh, some slack editing from me. Thanks!

 

[the croucher]

Table update. It's been a while! Clues has moved from the 'possibly living' to the 'missing DOD' list. The rest are all moves from the 'possibly living' to the 'recently confirmed' lists (RIP).

Hopefully these notes give people the impetus to have another crack at some of these longer cold cases!

Missing dates of death for V/AFL footballers as at 16 November 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Harry Brown	Harold Francis Brown	[?] [?] 1902	StK 1927	⬥ Thought by AFL to be Henry John Brown, DOB 16 Oct 1903 (unlikely) ⬥ Played for Caulfield and Hawksburn prior to StK ⬥ H. Brown transferred StK > Camberwell ⬥ H. F. Brown (same guy?) went C'well > Coll. District ⬥ Interment date is 17 Mar 1975; DOD possibly 13 Mar 1975 ⬥ This puts DOB some time between 13 Mar and 31 Dec 1902 ⬥ Both the DOB and DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificates
Otto Buck	Samuel Otto John Buck	15 Nov 1876	Carl 1897	⬥ Last confirmed existence in Mildura, 1917 (electoral roll) ⬥ Extensive notes on Ancestry here but no DOD ⬥ Did not die in 1946 as some trees claim (different Samuel Buck)
Jack Cliff	Jack Louis Cliff	23 May 1919	StK 1940–42	⬥ Played for West Broken Hill prior to StK ⬥ AFL/SR says: became a 'gangster', killed in unmarked grave ⬥ Last confirmed existence in Elwood, 1980 (electoral roll)
Ivan Clues	Ivan Noel Clues	10 May 1929	Coll 1951	⬥ His niece confirmed that Clues died between 7 Apr 2004 and 14 Apr 2004 in Surry Hills, NSW
Frank Corby	Eugene Francis Corby	24 Dec 1924	Coll 1948	⬥ Lawrence William Corby was Frank's brother, not a pseudonym ⬥ Previous Coll FC contact with family did not reveal DOD
Fred Coulsell	Frederick Rowland Coulsell	17 Dec 1905	NM 1927 Ess 1931	⬥ Ancestry tree shows DOD of 16 Jun 1997 at Beenleigh, QLD ⬥ DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificate
Bobby Craig	Robert Ritchie Craig	29 Mar 1882	Melb 1902	⬥ Born in Williamstown (Aus), moved to Scotland by 1901 (census) ⬥ Departed Liverpool for Argentina in 1913, married in Scotland in 1914 ⬥ Brother Andrew buried in Dromana (Aus) in 1982
Ray Hutchins	Raymond Ferris Hutchins	23 Mar 1929	Melb 1950–51	⬥ Obituary post from Melbourne FC on 3 Feb 2021 mentions his passing but without an exact date
Charlie Jenkins	William Charles Jenkins	21 Aug 1874	Fitz 1898	⬥ Thought by AFL to be Charles Herbert Jenkins, DOB 17 Jun 1878, cousin of Ern Jenkins (unlikely) ⬥ Jenkins often called himself Charles William instead of William Charles ⬥ He transferred to Fitzroy in 1894 ⬥ Ancestry tree shows DOD of 1 Jun 1956 ⬥ DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificate
Edmund Kirwin	Edmund Kirwin	31 Mar 1876	StK 1898	⬥ Kirwin's brother Maurice died in 1960 ⬥ Kirwin was an established cricketer for St Kilda CC; CricketArchive records list an Edward Kirwan (diff spelling both names), DOB 1872, DOD 20 Feb 1929 ⬥ Michael Kirwen (again, diff spelling) listed as brother of Maurice, died in 1952, but no mention of Edmund, despite the fact they were also brothers
Tom Lee	Thomas Francis Lee	11 Dec 1874	Coll 1897–98	⬥ Lee's mother Elizabeth appears to have died on the day of his birth ⬥ There are no death notices for any of his relatives that have died ⬥ Ancestry tress and death notices suggest he died before 1915, possibly before 1904
George Lockwood	George Lockwood	6 Dec 1872	Geel 1899–1901 Coll 1902–04	⬥ AFL/SR says: possible death year of 1946(unlikely) ⬥ A George Hislop Lockwood died overseas in war in 1917 (inconclusive) ⬥ Lockwood lived until at least 1944 according to death notice of relative ⬥ Lockwood's twin Teddy died in 1953 ⬥ The Lockwood lineage looks as so
Joe Marchant	[?]	[?] c. 1884	StK 1904	⬥ Thought by AFL to be John Albert Marchant, DOB 11 Sep 1884 in NSW (unlikely) ⬥ No transfer details; "The Encyclopedia" lists him as Joseph Marchant
Jack McKenzie	John James McKenzie	19 Aug 1908	Ess 1929	⬥ Son of John Joseph 'Dookie' McKenzie (1881–1946) ⬥ Married Lorna Davis Ireland in 1933, divorced in 1939 ⬥ Listed as deceased in father Dookie's death notice, so McKenzie's death is presumed between Jul 1939 and Mar 1946
Alf Neeson	Alfred Carl Frank Neeson (later: Alfred Milton Briggs)	15 Jun 1914	Fitz 1935–36 Haw 1936–38	⬥ DOB thought in early research to be 5 June 1914 due to war records (proven false via Vic BDM) ⬥ Joined Army in early 1935 and discharged later that year ⬥ Was arrested in 1939 for stealing a car, changed his name at some point around this time to Alfred Briggs ⬥ Married Ivy McRae/Seale in 1940 as Alfred M. Briggs ⬥ Potentially interchanging use of Briggs/Neeson names, was in WA goldfields region in late 1940s ⬥ Former wife Ivy died in 1974 ⬥ Further evidence suggesting Alf swapped between Briggs & Neeson throughout his life ⬥ AFL/SR says: suggest Alf used Alfred Milton Briggs as a full name; Alfred and Ivy on Kalgoorlie electoral roll in 1949 ⬥ Further SR research; no Briggs in Kalgoorlie cemetery ⬥ Alma Seale (sister of Ivy Briggs)'s daughter Winifred moved to Frankston before 1980 ⬥ Winifred contacted Rhett in Nov 2017 but only vague memories of Alf ⬥ SR: No response from New Norcia Monastery (lead from Winifred) ⬥ Genealogist with history of researching Alf says he married at least once, possibly twice more after Ivy, and Milton Kenneth Briggs is possibly an adopted son
Mick O'Hagan	Michael Joseph O'Hagan	22 Jan 1878	StK 1897	⬥ Michael Joseph O'Hagan studied pharmacy at Melb Uni in 1895; mentioned in court case in 1908 as being from Nathalia ⬥ His sister, Mary Terese, died in 1970 aged 90; death notice lists Mick as deceased ⬥ Some questioning over whether Michael Joseph is our man given lack of quality of early St Kilda player records ⬥ Given contemporaries and schooling, confident that he is the right man
George Prismall	George Henry Prismall	10 Mar 1915	Ess 1935	⬥ Served in British Merchant Navy during WWII ⬥ Mother was Gladys Prismall (1893–1980), who didn't marry ⬥ His sister, Phyllis Catherine, died in 2014 ⬥ Last existence, living in Earls Court (Aussie hotspot) circa 1947–48
Sam Reid	Samuel Alexander Reid	17 Jun 1872	Carl 1897	⬥ Parents were likely James Reid and Ann Eliza Reid (nee Ralston) ⬥ Probably not the Samuel Reid that died in 1949 and may have lived in Japan (different parents to those listed on Blueseum)
Arch Robinson	Archibald Robinson	9 Jul 1890	Rich 1911	⬥ Served in AIF in WWI; Army records suggest born in 1888, not 1890 ⬥ Divorced Edith Robinson Whitehead in 1921 ⬥ Was often misnamed as Robertson
Ray Ross	Raymond Paul Ross	2 May 1900	Ess 1921	⬥ Ross is not Rich/StK player Raymond Roberts Ross from similar era ⬥ Potential that Raymond Paul Ross changed his name to Raymond Paul Elliott and died in 1980 (same mother) ⬥ More ruling out of other people (aka Raymond Roberts Ross) ⬥ Permit for an R. Ross going from Ess > NM in Rd 4, 1922 ⬥ Raymond Paul Ross was not a jeweller listed in 1921 (different guy)
Jim Smith	James William Smith	11 Feb 1887	SM 1906	⬥ Listed as from Marylebone (Geelong Juniors) in "The Encyclopedia" ⬥ Born to John Smith and Mary Williams ⬥ Likely ruled out James Smith, DOB 1887, DOD 1963 in Geelong ⬥ Returned to Geelong Junior Association in 1907 ⬥ Possibly captain of East Geelong from 1910–1919 ⬥ J Smith is cleared from East Geel to Eastern District in 1923
Alby Williams	Albert Joseph Williams	3 Aug 1916	NM 1943	⬥ Married Doris Vivienne Williams (nee Jackman) in 1940 ⬥ When Doris passed away in 1964, Alby was still listed as alive in her death notice
Bill Woods	William Cross Woods	[?] [?] 1881	Geel 1909	⬥ Thought by AFL to be William Henry Woods, DOB 31 Aug 1890 (unlikely) ⬥ Then believed to be William Woods, born 1890 in Portarlington, enlisted in First AIF in 1915 and returned to Aus in 1919 ⬥ Potential cremation date 6 July 1972 in Springvale (unlikely to be our man) ⬥ Initial scepticism from AFL/SR; mention of brother called Ike ⬥ Potential match of William Cross Woods (1881–1959) ⬥ Third son of Emma and Isaac Woods (potentially William's parents) died in 1891 ⬥ Discovery of alternate surname Burgess which seemed to be used interchangeably with Woods ⬥ DOD of William Cross Woods listed as 3 Aug 1959 in Geelong ⬥ Info on William's son Isaac ⬥ Detailed family tree of William Cross Woods, refuting AFL/SR likely incorrect beliefs that he was still William Henry Woods ⬥ AFL/SR still pushing back on William Cross ⬥ Burial info on Woods' potential wife Adeline Alice ⬥ Suggestion for AFL to purchase Woods' mother's death certificate to glean more information

Possibly living (born pre-1930) V/AFL footballers as at 16 November 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Angus Abbey	Angus Maxwell Abbey	15 Nov 1925	Foot 1949–54
Jack Atkinson	[?]	23 Jun 1928	Rich 1950
Lindsay Baglin	Lindsay Gordon Baglin	2 Mar 1929	Foot 1947 NM 1949
Des Bell	Desmond Clyde Bell	23 May 1923	Melb 1946–48	⬥ Alive in Aug 2022
Norm Edwards	[?]	23 Oct 1928	Foot 1950–51
Arthur Fitt	Arthur Aloysius Fitt Jr.	12 Feb 1928	Fitz 1950
Nick Gelavis	Nikolas Gelavis	15 Jun 1929	SM 1953–54 Foot 1954
Max Glass	Maxwell Herbert Glass	2 Oct 1925	SM 1945	⬥ Last confirmed existence in Jan 1999 (possibly near Coffs Harbour) ⬥ Living in Rye, 1980 (electoral roll), has a son also named Maxwell (John)
Eddie Goodger	Edmund James Goodger	10 Mar 1929	Fitz 1949–58
Gordon Green	Gordon Stanley Green	31 May 1925	NM 1942	⬥ Alive in Jul 2018
Barry Griffiths	Barry McIntosh Griffiths	12 Jul 1929	Haw 1950–52	⬥ Originally from Canterbury ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for East. Suburban Churches ⬥ Possibly thought to be Barry Joseph Griffiths (unlikely) ⬥ Listed in 1953 article as 22 y.o., conflicts with 1929 DOB ⬥ Transferred from Oakleigh to Albury in 1954 ⬥ Played with Acton in Canberra in 1959 ⬥ Strong match for Barry McIntosh re: locations etc.
Doug Guy	Douglas George Guy	21 Nov 1929	Carl 1950–53
Andy Larkins	[?]	30 Oct 1928	Geel 1950
Greg Lourey	[?]	1 Aug 1927	Melb 1948; 1950 Fitz 1951–52
Jack MacDonald	Jack R. MacDonald	16 May 1927	Haw 1951–53	⬥ Originally from Carey Grammar / Camberwell ⬥ Also played for Creswick and Glen Iris ⬥ Coached at Powelltown
Jim Miller	James Henry Miller	30 May 1919	Foot 1938–48	⬥ Alive in Jun 2023
Tom Miller	[?]	3 Jul 1928	Foot 1947–50
Frank Pattison	Francis Xavier Pattison	29 Sep 1928	StK 1951
Fred Payne	Frederick Ronald Payne	4 Feb 1927	Ess 1949–53	⬥ Alive in Feb 2024
Bill Redmond	William George Arthur Redmond	29 May 1927	Carl 1947–48
Cliff Riley	Clifford David Riley	2 Feb 1927	StK 1951–52
Don Scott	Donald Rex Scott	5 Nov 1929	SM 1950–54
Jack Storey	John Ivan Storey	1 Jul 1929	Foot 1948–49
Jack Taylor	[?]	9 May 1924	Haw 1945	⬥ Originally from Melbourne High School ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for Glen Ormond
Jack Thomson	[?]	22 Jan 1929	Melb 1949–53
Ron Warren	[?]	5 Oct 1928	Geel 1949
Kevin Webb	[?]	2 Oct 1928	Rich 1949 Melb 1951
Brian Williamson	[?]	9 Dec 1928	NM 1947

Recently confirmed DODs and/or DOBs (since 28 February 2024)

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	D.O.D.	Career	Notes
Ernie Collihole	Ernest James Collihole	26 Dec 1930	14 Sep 1985	SM 1950–51	Image confirmation of date on Find a Grave
Greg Dean	Gregory Winspear Dean	14 Oct 1928	20 Apr 2024	StK 1949–50	Death notice
Brian Gilmore	Brian Rupert Gilmore	1 Dec 1929	2 Jul 2024	Ess 1950–53 StK 1955	Death notice
Les Jarry	Leslie Alexander Jarry	28 Sep 1928	16 Oct 2024	SM 1948–49	Death notice
Wally Nash	Walter Edward Nash	10 Jun 1929	20 Jun 2024	Haw 1953–54	Death notice
Harry Paynter	Henry Charles Paynter	17 Sep 1927	9 Apr 2024	Coll 1950	Funeral notice
Jim Rattray	George James Rattray	22 Aug 1929	15 Sep 2014	Haw 1949–52	Cemetery listing
Bob Templeton	John Robert Templeton	25 Oct 1927	16 Jul 2024	Foot 1947–49; 1953	Death notice

---

Missing DOBs V/AFL footballers as at 16 November 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	D.O.D.	Career	Notes
Stewart Anderson	Glen Stewart Anderson	1910	7 Aug 1962	StK 1933–35 NM 1937–38
Harry Brown	Harold Francis Brown	1902	1975	StK 1927	See DOD list
Dick Casey	Richard James Casey	c. 1881	16 Apr 1919	SM 1905–12
Morrie Davidson	Maurice Davidson	1904	11 Jul 1970	NM 1930
Bill Hennington	William Hennington	c. 1891	11 Jul 1964	SM 1914
Jim Schellnack	James Schellnack	c. 1880	24 May 1968	SM 1904

Well done ! Fantastic, and timely update.

 

[rbartlett]

Jack Atkinson Richmond is still alive. I'm in contact with his son.

 

[Gibbsy]

Going through a few of the names on the table with my Ancestry subscription.

Remember Frank Corby? Underworld links and in trouble with the law, sometimes used his brother Lawrence's name as a cover? The Corby family tree on Ancestry now has his death listed as 2008 in Melbourne. No specific date, but it's more than we've ever known before!

The profile the family has established for Frank is extensive. According to them, he also went under the alias "Jack Munro". Most telling is the note at the foot of the page (cut off in my screenshots) – "His youngest sister Marie thought he had moved to NSW in 1950s and died at a young age in 1960s. He was an extremely secretive man."











CC: 35Daicos Oliver G

 

[Gibbsy]

Nick Gelavis has a great-grandson playing in Perth and he is noted as '' of the Footscray Gelavis''

If anyone has FB maybe contact him?

University PFL player Sam Gelavis forced to retire after ...​

View attachment 2166975
CODE Sports
https://www.codesports.com.au › Afl › State-leagues




13 Sept 2024 — His great uncle Nick even played for Footscray and South Melbourne during the 1950s. “Growing up in such a rich football heritage, the sport .

It's certainly a unique name. I would feel a bit strange 'cold calling' him asking if his great-grandfather is dead or alive though.

 

[Gibbsy]

Looks like we have a confirmed DOD for Ivan Clues – 7 April 2004.

This is sourced from Ancestry and was added by one Sharon Clues, which is the same 'sclues' who made contact with us earlier this year.

Again, most relevant to 35Daicos and Oliver G. If we get this up on AF soon then we can use that as the source for Wikipedia and ThePope can update.

 

[GreyCrow]

It's certainly a unique name. I would feel a bit strange 'cold calling' him asking if his great-grandfather is dead or alive though.

"" Hi I'm part of a group connected to the AFL and we are chasing up all the old players. I note the recent article that said Nick Gelavis is your Great-Uncle

The AFL would be interested to know if Nick is still with us "'

 

[Gibbsy]

Back on Samuel Otto John "Otto" Buck. I did a lot of digging a while back and debunked the 1946 death date which was actually another Samuel Buck born 6 years later.

Different trees now list different dates that prompt further research. All appear sourced from personal records, or at least nothing available publicly.

This first listing of 1938 gives a death location of Carlton North, which is a strong lead.



The second listing of 1938 gives no location, but a description of "speculative" on the attached profile.



The third listing is 1930, eight years earlier, with no further information.



There does appear to be death listings in both the Victorian and Australian records for our man, but nothing available publicly.





However, a Vic BDM search for deaths around that era doesn't turn up anything for our guy (just the 1946 red herring and another couple Samuel Bucks).



Who wants to try and dig some more around that 1938 date?

 

[Gibbsy]

Robert Ritchie "Bobby" Craig

Current notes are:
⬥ Born in Williamstown (Aus), moved to Scotland by 1901 (census)
⬥ Departed Liverpool for Argentina in 1913, married in Scotland in 1914
⬥ Brother Andrew buried in Dromana (Aus) in 1982

A number of profiles on Ancestry have Craig dying in Buenoes Aires, Argentina, which would be plausible given that 1913 departure.



Another profile has Craig taking part in the British military from 1914–1920 (again, lines up with his 1914 marriage). Although his further marriage(s?) in the mid-1930s back in Australia suggests he may have come back home at some point.



I think we dig around Argentina post-1935 for death notices.

 

[35Daicos]

Looks like we have a confirmed DOD for Ivan Clues – 7 April 2004.

This is sourced from Ancestry and was added by one Sharon Clues, which is the same 'sclues' who made contact with us earlier this year.

Again, most relevant to 35Daicos and Oliver G. If we get this up on AF soon then we can use that as the source for Wikipedia and ThePope can update.

View attachment 2167132

View attachment 2167134

That's terrific - it will be good to have that one marked off. I don't know why the lady couldn't come back here and pass that on (which is what I thought she said she'd do), but ...

 

[Gibbsy]

We actually have a death date for John James (Jack) McKenzie.

This almost semeed too easy. Our friend Footballers Family Trees on Ancestry (is that one of you guys?) had it listed, and it's backed up with a death notice in the Mercury.

 

[Gibbsy]

Michael Joseph "Mick" O'Hagan. Could this be our man?

1878 birth year links up, although I'm not finding any info through NSW BDM.

 

[GreyCrow]

Michael Joseph "Mick" O'Hagan. Could this be our man?

1878 birth year links up, although I'm not finding any info through NSW BDM.

View attachment 2167170

This one is interesting

OHAGAN Michael Joseph Birth
Mother Mary Ann CREED
Father John
CA RL
1878
1116/1878

OHAGAN MICHAEL 31289/1964 UNKNOWN Mother MARY ANNE PARRAMATTA

There are several Trove articles to a Michael OHagan of Adamstown and Glebe which dont match the dates of Victorian copy