Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[Gibbsy]

Haven't read the entire thread so I hope this is a positive contribution.

According to some crap code I wrote there are 5 players currently listed on AFL Tables with no birth date given - not sure if there's good info on any of these.

Dick Casey (South M 1905-1912)
Morrie Davidson (North M 1930)
Bill Hennington (South M 1914)
Kelly Robinson (Fitzroy 1897-1901, 2x Premiership player)
Jim Schellnack (South M 1904)

AFL Tables - Dick Casey - Stats - Statistics

AFL Tables - Morrie Davidson - Stats - Statistics

AFL Tables - Bill Hennington - Stats - Statistics

AFL Tables - Kelly Robinson - Stats - Statistics

AFL Tables - Jim Schellnack - Stats - Statistics

Robinson is a good shout, thanks. We don’t have him on our list. Wikipedia has 1876 (no date, just year). Draftguru has 1873 (old data?)

 

[GreyCrow]

James Peter '' Kelly '' Robinson died Nov 26 1943 aged 67

Former Fitzroy Footballer Dead - The Sun News-Pictorial (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954; 1956) - 29 Nov 1943

JAMES PETER "KELLY" ROBINSON, 67, of Liverpool-st„ North Fitzroy, star wing player for Fitzroy from 1898 to 1902, died on Friday after a long illness. ...

nla.gov.au

Given the lateness of the year it doesnt help that much

Ancestry has trees but none with DOB

There may be hospital records?

Cremated and Ashes scattered - no info on Fawkner Cemetery records

 

[35Daicos]

Robinson is a good shout, thanks. We don’t have him on our list. Wikipedia has 1876 (no date, just year). Draftguru has 1873 (old data?)

Yes, it would have to be:

This^ is what the old AFL Historical Statistics site had for him on the Fitzroy 1897 playing list.

The most recent edition of The Encyclopedia calls him John Henry Kelly Robinson, with no DOB. His Wiki page has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Robinson

 

[GreyCrow]

Seems Robinson was a Collingwood Junior

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241620306

(tried to resize )

 

[Gibbsy]

Here's to you, Mr. Robinson



Add this to the list of dates we would be able to ratify were we to have access to a certificate.

 

[Gibbsy]

Fascinating indeed. That's two NSW links there (the Find a Grave listing and the NSW BDM listing).

I think a good jump-off point is the death of his sister Mary Terese O'Hagan in 1970. She is also seemingly referred to as Mary Theresa and Mary Teresa in various electoral rolls, probate listing etc.

View attachment 2170947

View attachment 2170950

Mary's four siblings were Peter, Patrick, John and Michael.

All except Michael are buried in Melbourne General Cemetery at the same site.

View attachment 2170975

View attachment 2170976

This suggests that Michael did not die in Victoria, either that or he had a falling out with the family.

But there is at least circumstantial evidence to suggest that he moved to NSW, possibly with his sister, given she was there at least as late as 1949.

It gives me good confidence that the man buried in Moree cemetery is our Michael. The listing was only added in February 2023, hence not overly familiar to us sleuths. Too bad there is no photo to confirm family members.

Ancestry turns up nothing; there aren't very many good listings for the O'Hagan siblings.

As has been mentioned before, we can confidently assume this 1906 electoral roll listing in Nathalia, VIC is our Michael O'Hagan (listed as a chemist, he studied pharmacy at Melbourne Uni). It appears he doesn't seem to have bothered with listing his middle name.

View attachment 2171003

This would also be him then, three years earlier, working as a chemist out of Hesse Street in Queenscliff, VIC (it wouldn't surprise me if it's the same building where the chemist still sits in Hesse Street today).

View attachment 2171013

I'm glad I found that 1903 listing, because it confirms that there are two Michael O'Hagans living in Victoria at the same time, and our man is not the labourer in Port Fairy seen below:

View attachment 2171017

This is especially important as it appears that very same labourer Michael O'Hagan was in New South Wales in the 1940s, at the same time that Mary O'Hagan (sister of our man, chemist Michael O'Hagan) was also living there.

View attachment 2171023

While there are many other listings of Michael J(ames) O'Hagan (carpenter, Footscray) in the decades between, none are our man.

His last confirmed 'appearance' is 1906. It does make the 1960 NSW grave site a bit perplexing, if it is him.

Penny for anyone's thoughts? I've put through a photo request on Find a Grave, let's see what might come back.

I got a message back on Find a Grave re: my Michael O'Hagan photo request.

Hi,
The Council burial register doesn't have Michael O'Hagan listed. I've looked up the Moree Court House death records and have found there was a Richard Joseph O'Hagen aged 82 yrs who died in Moree in March 1960 and is buried in the Roman Catholic section. However the exact plot is unknown. I don't know if they are the same person.
Unfortunately I won't be able to get you a photo.
Best wishes,

I suspect the original uploader to Find a Grave had a case of mistaken identity, and that Richard Joseph O'Hagen (O'Hagan?) was just another similarly named person born in the same year as Michael.

If anything, he didn't stray far from Moree between 1930 and his death.



Oddly enough, Ancestry has nothing for Richard Joseph O'Hagan/O'Hagen beyond this. No profile, no trees, nothing beyond those few electoral roll listings, all of which spelled his surname with an A, for what it's worth.

Here is his NSW BDM record:



There's every chance he is closely related to the other Michael O'Hagan, a labourer that we believe moved from Victoria to New South Wales some time between 1903 and 1943. This Richard Joseph O'Hagan was also originally listed in the roll as a labourer, and then later as a wool-classer.

So, probably much ado about nothing here. But it helps to build out the story.

 

[Bandit55]

South Melbourne's Graeme Wilson passed away on Tuesday, 02 September 2014, in Pretoria. At the time he was the Australian High Commissioner to South Africa:

https://www.gov.za/news/media-state...condolences-following-passing-australian-high

https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/...son-australian-high-commissioner-south-africa

https://www.smh.com.au/public-servi...rned-as-a-true-gentleman-20140905-10czqw.html

 

[Bandit55]

According to the Spotswood FC, South’s Jimmy Cairns passed away possibly in early 2021:

https://www.facebook.com/spotswoodf...f-our-club-greats-jimmy-cai/4021752494516165/

However, I haven’t been able to find any confirmation.

 

[GreyCrow]

In the comments there is one that says he married ''McDonalds sister '' there is a subsequent marriage in 1961 on Vic BDM that identifies this marriage taking place in 1961 and James Gordon Cairns and Merle McDonald the contracting parties

I havent been able to find anything yet on either party with enough confidence to be happy

If anything a middle name can be added

 

[GreyCrow]

Is there a thread on Oldest Living Players or Longest Lived Players?

Looking through some of the names given by Gibbsy a few ( 6 ) ? pages back I noticed Jim Miller had his 105th birthday last year - post by TLC Care on FB

I assume he is still going heading into his 106th birthday

Keith Stanley Rae passed away aged 104

Elusive Des Bell heading to 102

Bob Dawson died 102

Is there a resource or list?

 

[Gibbsy]

Is there a thread on Oldest Living Players or Longest Lived Players?

Looking through some of the names given by Gibbsy a few ( 6 ) ? pages back I noticed Jim Miller had his 105th birthday last year - post by TLC Care on FB

I assume he is still going heading into his 106th birthday

Keith Stanley Rae passed away aged 104

Elusive Des Bell heading to 102

Bob Dawson died 102

Is there a resource or list?

I've mustered up this list based on my "possibly living, born pre-1930" list from 16 November 2024

Oldest believed living V/AFL footballers (born pre-1930) as at 13 January 2025

Player name	Full name	Age	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Jim Miller	James Henry Miller	105y, 7m, 14d	30 May 1919	Foot 1938–48	⬥ Alive in Jun 2023
Des Bell	Desmond Clyde Bell	101y, 7m, 21d	23 May 1923	Melb 1946–48	⬥ Alive in Aug 2022
Jack Taylor	[?]	100y, 8m, 4d	9 May 1924	Haw 1945	⬥ Originally from Melbourne High School ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for Glen Ormond
Gordon Green	Gordon Stanley Green	99y, 7m, 13d	31 May 1925	NM 1942	⬥ Alive in Jul 2018
Max Glass	Maxwell Herbert Glass	99y, 3m, 11d	2 Oct 1925	SM 1945	⬥ Last confirmed existence in Jan 1999 (possibly near Coffs Harbour) ⬥ Living in Rye, 1980 (electoral roll), has a son also named Maxwell (John)
Angus Abbey	Angus Maxwell Abbey	99y, 1m, 29d	15 Nov 1925	Foot 1949–54
Cliff Riley	Clifford David Riley	97y, 11m, 11d	2 Feb 1927	StK 1951–52
Fred Payne	Frederick Ronald Payne	97y, 11m, 9d	4 Feb 1927	Ess 1949–53	⬥ Alive in Feb 2024
Jack MacDonald	Jack R. MacDonald	97y, 7m, 28d	16 May 1927	Haw 1951–53	⬥ Originally from Carey Grammar / Camberwell ⬥ Also played for Creswick and Glen Iris ⬥ Coached at Powelltown
Bill Redmond	William George Arthur Redmond	97y, 7m, 15d	29 May 1927	Carl 1947–48
Greg Lourey	[?]	97y, 5m, 12d	1 Aug 1927	Melb 1948; 1950 Fitz 1951–52
Arthur Fitt	Arthur Aloysius Fitt Jr.	96y, 11m, 1d	12 Feb 1928	Fitz 1950
Jack Atkinson	[?]	96y, 6m, 21d	23 Jun 1928	Rich 1950
Tom Miller	[?]	96y, 6m, 10d	3 Jul 1928	Foot 1947–50
Frank Pattison	Francis Xavier Pattison	96y, 3m, 15d	29 Sep 1928	StK 1951
Kevin Webb	[?]	96y, 3m, 11d	2 Oct 1928	Rich 1949 Melb 1951
Ron Warren	[?]	96y, 3m, 8d	5 Oct 1928	Geel 1949
Norm Edwards	[?]	96y, 2m, 21d	23 Oct 1928	Foot 1950–51
Andy Larkins	[?]	96y, 2m, 14d	30 Oct 1928	Geel 1950
Brian Williamson	[?]	96y, 1m, 4d	9 Dec 1928	NM 1947
Jack Thomson	[?]	95y, 11m, 22d	22 Jan 1929	Melb 1949–53
Lindsay Baglin	Lindsay Gordon Baglin	95y, 10m, 11d	2 Mar 1929	Foot 1947 NM 1949
Eddie Goodger	Edmund James Goodger	95y, 10m, 3d	10 Mar 1929	Fitz 1949–58
Nick Gelavis	Nikolas Gelavis	95y, 6m, 29d	15 Jun 1929	SM 1953–54 Foot 1954
Jack Storey	John Ivan Storey	95y, 6m, 12d	1 Jul 1929	Foot 1948–49
Barry Griffiths	Barry McIntosh Griffiths	95y, 6m, 1d	12 Jul 1929	Haw 1950–52	⬥ Originally from Canterbury ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for East. Suburban Churches ⬥ Possibly thought to be Barry Joseph Griffiths (unlikely) ⬥ Listed in 1953 article as 22 y.o., conflicts with 1929 DOB ⬥ Transferred from Oakleigh to Albury in 1954 ⬥ Played with Acton in Canberra in 1959 ⬥ Strong match for Barry McIntosh re: locations etc.
Don Scott	Donald Rex Scott	95y, 2m, 8d	5 Nov 1929	SM 1950–54
Doug Guy	Douglas George Guy	95y, 1m, 23d	21 Nov 1929	Carl 1950–53

 

[Gibbsy]

In terms of oldest known players, here's the list that was included on page 1200 of the AFL Record Season Guide 2024. There are a few more columns (games, goals, career span) but in the interests of time I've just transcribed the below.

The AFL's list of longest-living V/AFL footballers (known cases), as at early Jan 2024

Age	Player	Club(s)	Born	Died
104	Jim H. Miller	Footscray	30 May 1919
104	Keith Rae	Carlton/Richmond	30 Jul 1917	23 Dec 2021
103	Newton Chandler	Carlton	19 Sep 1893	24 Mar 1997
103	Max Wilson	Carlton	9 Jul 1914	9 Aug 2017
102	Harry Selover	Melbourne	24 Jul 1898	18 May 2001
102	Bob Dawson	St Kilda	3 Jan 1921	31 Jul 2023
102	Ken Feltscheer	Melbourne/Hawthorn	9 Jun 1915	25 Dec 2017
102	Bill K. Campbell	North Melbourne	3 Dec 1904	19 Mar 2007
101	Don Wilson	Footscray	22 Oct 1914	6 Dec 2015
101	Alex Mathieson	Geelong	11 May 1921	13 May 2022
100	Roy Allen	Collingwood	27 Mar 1901	17 Nov 2001
100	Des Bell	Melbourne	23 May 1923
100	Gerald Tanner	Richmond	24 Aug 1921	10 Jan 2022

 

[GreyCrow]

RedmanWasHere not sure if you have seen this or if I have already posted this

Redmond, whose sister Rose is the grandmother of Geelong’s Grand Final-winning Guthrie brothers Cameron and Zach, was voted Best and Fairest in the HDFL in 1954, then switched to South Bendigo to star in its ’56 premiership team. Premierships also followed at Inglewood in 1958 and South Bendigo reserves in ’59 and ’60, and Redmond served as captain-coach in all three.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

RedmanWasHere not sure if you have seen this or if I have already posted this

Redmond, whose sister Rose is the grandmother of Geelong’s Grand Final-winning Guthrie brothers Cameron and Zach, was voted Best and Fairest in the HDFL in 1954, then switched to South Bendigo to star in its ’56 premiership team. Premierships also followed at Inglewood in 1958 and South Bendigo reserves in ’59 and ’60, and Redmond served as captain-coach in all three.

I did not see that.

 

[ThePope]

Is there a thread on Oldest Living Players or Longest Lived Players?

Looking through some of the names given by Gibbsy a few ( 6 ) ? pages back I noticed Jim Miller had his 105th birthday last year - post by TLC Care on FB

I assume he is still going heading into his 106th birthday

Keith Stanley Rae passed away aged 104

Elusive Des Bell heading to 102

Bob Dawson died 102

Is there a resource or list?

Oldest confirmed: https://w.wiki/Ci4T
Oldest without a confirmed date of death: https://w.wiki/Ci4Z (including obviously death date missing ones)
Oldest without a confirmed date of death by club:

• Carlton
• Collingwood
• Essendon
• Fitzroy
• Footscray
• Geelong
• Hawthorn
• Melbourne
• North Melbourne
• St Kilda
• South Melbourne
• Richmond

 

[Gibbsy]

Oldest without a confirmed date of death: https://w.wiki/e7R (including obviously death date missing ones)

How is the 'age' column being generated here?

Des Bell would be 101 right now, not 93

All of the numbers in the 'age' column seem to be listed as 8 years too young

 

[ThePope]

How is the 'age' column being generated here?

Des Bell would be 101 right now, not 93

All of the numbers in the 'age' column seem to be listed as 8 years too young

Comparison date was hardcoded.... rewriting the code now... will update the links....

 

[GreyCrow]

Oldest confirmed: https://w.wiki/Ci4T
Oldest without a confirmed date of death: https://w.wiki/Ci4Z (including obviously death date missing ones)
Oldest without a confirmed date of death by club:

• Carlton
• Collingwood
• Essendon
• Fitzroy
• Footscray
• Geelong
• Hawthorn
• Melbourne
• North Melbourne
• St Kilda
• South Melbourne
• Richmond

Wilfred Douglas Moffat born 20 March 1885 in Adelaide to William and Marie Broad

There is a corresponding death in Vic BDM of a Wilfred Douglas Moffat in 1960 aged 75 mother unknown father Wilfred

MOFFAT Wilfred Douglas Death
<Unknown Family Name>, Unknown UNKNOWN MOFFATT Wilfred
ADELAIDE SOUTH AUSTRALIA
CHELSEA

75
1960
24679/1960



I would strongly suggest these are the same as the DOB matches the wikidata - the death information would have been given by a relative or a random comment '' I am Doug coz my Dad is Wilf ''

I'll let others chase up the death notice

 

[GreyCrow]

Ted Flemming born Edward Joseph Flemming in Perth 1902

Flemming

Edward Joseph

M

Edward Gilbert Ridge FLEMMING

Elizabeth Hannah SMITH

Boulder

1902

-

1697

1902

Died NSW 1987

FLEMMING EDWARD JOSEPH 201729/1987
EDWARD GILBERT RIDGE ELIZABETH HANNAH
209

 

[GreyCrow]

John Francis Murray aka Jack

Born 1913 to

Murray

John Francis

M

Ferdinand MURRAY

Isabella Murray RAY

Mornington

1913

Wellington

6600365

1913

Possible death 22 March 1999 if someone wants to check

Ashes Request
First Name	JOHN FRANCIS	Application Number
Last Name	MURRAYNames are only recorded in capitals	MCB-448351-T9R9M6 KC00137764 KARRAKATTA CEMETERY Cremation
Aged Years	85	Date of Death	22/03/1999
Suburb	BELLEVUE
MEMORIALISED AT KARRAKATTA CEMETERY (please enquire for a specific location)
Memorial Type	NICHE WALL

 

[GreyCrow]

Sydney Redmond Moloney born 1915 died

MOLONEY

SYDNEY REDMOND

62 Years

1977

CLAREMONT

John Ronald '' Runty '' McDonald born 1920 died Jan 31 1955

MCDONALD

JOHN RONALD

34 Years

1955

STH FREMANTLE

Footballer Killed In Cycle Accident - The Daily News (Perth, WA : 1882 - 1955) - 1 Feb 1955

VICTIM of a motor cycle accident last night John Ronald ("Runty") McDonald (34) of King Wiliiam-st., South Fremantle was a well-known footballer. He started with East Fremantle in 1941 resumed with ...

nla.gov.au

Ronald Colin Mellowship born 1920 died 17/ April 1999

First Name	RONALD COLIN	Application Number
Last Name	MELLOWSHIPNames are only recorded in capitals	MCB-371929-H5F2P4 FC00031456 FREMANTLE CEMETERY Cremation
Aged Years	78	Date of Death	17/04/1999
Suburb	BICTON