No1 ruck 2023 - Nank or Soldo?

[Grrr]

I reckon soldo has the 1 or 2 taps a game that look real sexy for sure but overall there isn't actually a discernible difference in that area between the 2 and nank is better elsewhere for now at least

And when Soldo last played he was tapping to Dusty in his prime, especially in the centre ball ups where it is so noticeable. Cotchin and Prestia weren't too shabby as well.

 

[_RT_]

Career comparison between Soldo and Nankervis

 

[Coach_Required]

I reckon Soldo is done, Hawkins has ruined his career with that push and ACL.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Okay lets see how the season pans out.

But my main conclusion is nank is not a lock at no1 ruck and as such should not be captain unless we are prepared to drop him. Its pretty demoralising if you are a 2/3rd ruck waiting for your opportunity if ruck is never going to be dropped.

You don't get the full picture from TV.

 

[sregit]

That wasn’t a ruck problem, Nank was in the top 4 on the ground that night, that was us just getting bullied by a younger, bigger, stronger and faster midfield unit

Taranto and Hopper change that entire equation so I wouldn’t be worrying about rucks at this point

What they offer around the ground is far more important compared to a few hit outs to advantage

Sorry MM I have to disagree here. Most games where we lost after leading to 3/4 time, were lost due to losing control of centre clearances and if you go back and review those games Nank was smashed in the ruck when it really counted.

 

[Muddiemoose]

Sorry MM I have to disagree here. Most games where we lost after leading to 3/4 time, were lost due to losing control of centre clearances and if you go back and review those games Nank was smashed in the ruck when it really counted.

Thanks for the reply mate and always happy for the discussion, so no need to ever apologise for disagreeing

Personally don’t think having a more dominant ruck tap wise would of made a difference, even if we got a few extra hit outs I don’t think it would of equaled more clearances just due to our midfield stocks at the time
Especially lacking those bigger body’s who thrive in the contest

The best clearance sides in the comp last year in order of total clearances Brisbane, Geelong, Sydney Doggies and Melbourne

None of those teams except Melbourne have great tap rucks, but they all have strong midfields that’s why I think the assumption that a ruck who will give you more hitouts wont make any meaningful difference and we lose what Nank offers around the ground and even on ground level

Nank was 2nd in the club last year for contested possies (drew with Prestia and 1 behind Bolton)

3rd in the club for Clearances behind Prestia and Cotch

2nd in the club for tackles with only Graham ahead of him

No way on earth would Soldo make up the difference compared to what we would be giving up

Interestingly enough if you look at the hit out stats across the comp the teams with the more dominant rucks hit out wise have no representation inside the teams with the best clearance numbers
Further says to me that hitouts are fools gold in terms of overall midfield performance

 

[Charlie Pannam]

Nank then daylight.
Ryan will be no 2 by seasons end imo.
Soldo very stiff in that incident that ruptured he’s acl, unfortunately don’t think he’ll get his A game back

 

[prodigy]

In last year's Elimination final, McStay had 10 hit outs and Nank had 41. Richmond won the hitouts 55-16. Brisbane won the clearances 46-40. The Richmond player with the most clearances was - Nank (2nd most on the ground behind Neale). Nank was actually our leading possession winner overall.

I accept stats aren't everything, but clearances are an incredibly complicated piece of play. Because they start from a stationary situation (ball-up or throw-in), each team can set up their offensive and defensive structures. And over the last 6 seasons we haven't been very good at clearance numbers. The last year when we had more games where we had more clearances than the opposition was 2015. In 2018, when we were clearly the best team all year (up to the prelim) we only had 4 games (out of 24) where we 'won' the clearances count. This means one of three things:

A) We suck at clearances
B) Clearance numbers aren't that significant
or
C) A and B

In 2021, Melbourne had Gawn - clearly the most dominant ruck in the game. The won the hitouts in 22 of 25 games. They won the clearances in less than half their games.
Last year, Geelong - again the best side all year, won the clearance count in less than half their games. In the grand final, they had nearly double the hitouts of Sydney, but Sydney still had more clearances (more centre clearances, too). If I remember, Geelong were lucky to squeak over the line in that game.....................

This is a great analysis. I've obviously been looking at it in an overly simplified manner.
I was in the camp of the OP in terms of us exploring potentially different options.
A lot of people assumed the OP meant dropping Nank but I don't think that's what they meant.

Nank is great around the ground so I think there's always a role for him.
But, as you say, clearances aren't everything and hopefully we can find other ways to gain ascendency from stoppages.

 

[living_in_syd]

Thanks for the reply mate and always happy for the discussion, so no need to ever apologise for disagreeing

Personally don’t think having a more dominant ruck tap wise would of made a difference, even if we got a few extra hit outs I don’t think it would of equaled more clearances just due to our midfield stocks at the time
Especially lacking those bigger body’s who thrive in the contest

The best clearance sides in the comp last year in order of total clearances Brisbane, Geelong, Sydney Doggies and Melbourne

None of those teams except Melbourne have great tap rucks, but they all have strong midfields that’s why I think the assumption that a ruck who will give you more hitouts wont make any meaningful difference and we lose what Nank offers around the ground and even on ground level

Nank was 2nd in the club last year for contested possies (drew with Prestia and 1 behind Bolton)

3rd in the club for Clearances behind Prestia and Cotch

2nd in the club for tackles with only Graham ahead of him

No way on earth would Soldo make up the difference compared to what we would be giving up

Interestingly enough if you look at the hit out stats across the comp the teams with the more dominant rucks hit out wise have no representation inside the teams with the best clearance numbers
Further says to me that hitouts are fools gold in terms of overall midfield performance



View attachment 1616384View attachment 1616385

If youre looking at stats, look at the free kicks against, nank is leading the competition last year by a country mile. A real liability in the d50 to give away a cheap free kick - needs to stamp this it out its so frustrating.

 

[Muddiemoose]

If youre looking at stats, look at the free kicks against, nank is leading the competition last year by a country mile. A real liability in the d50 to give away a cheap free kick - needs to stamp this it out its so frustrating.

No doubt, but once again he offers a lot more than any of the other options
No point throwing the baby out with the bath water
Instead of focusing on the negative look at what he brings to the table

 

[biaseddustyfan]

soldo would also be number 1 frees against if he played number 1 ruck every week. all about the yellow sash. he does give away some dumb ones but about 60% of them aren't there

 

[tora tora tora]

Against brisbane ef, their no1 ruck went down, nank started grabbing it out of the air and we still lost clearances. Our mids need first use…

Edwards in for Prestia who was having a blinder. Cotch not having a huge game and Martin not fit affected us more than them losing their ruck. McStay battled well.
Edwards for Prestia equalled the tall who came in for omac who didn't Start that well.
Nank had a good year with captaincy. Grimes had new gibcus and tarrant. Riolo and Baker back miller, and Balta back and forward..

 

[Calcium Man]

I haven't been able to watch yesterday's praccy but from the comments in the game thread it seemed like our clearances were ok at best, against last year's wooden spooners. I know it takes time but I don't think Nank is going to provide silver platter service to our mids and think Soldo is better at this. If it were possible, I'd have Soldo take centre ruckwork and Nank for everything else. 666 just makes centre clearance work so dangerous.

Funnily enough we’ve been in top half dozen teams for centre clearances per game every year bar 2021 since 2017.

Dustin Martin was the best centre clearance player in the comp 2017-2020.

Conversely, we’ve been far and away the worst stoppage clearance team in the league in those seasons… expect in the finals 2017-2020 when we always stepped up in these areas above our season average against the best teams.

We’ve played one preseason game, we’ve injected 2 new centre square mids plus bringing back the best centre square mid in the comp. One game sample size seems a bit quick to be challenging something that worked for 4 seasons and hasn’t really had a chance to get going for 2 years. Especially when you consider Short played as a centre square mid the entire game and Cotchin and Martin (and Bolton) didn’t play 1 minute in there which I doubt happens in the regular season.

Otherwise it seems this is all based on last years QF where the Lions did lose their ruck but we lost our best clearance mid in Prestia in the 2nd, not to mention Dusty’s first game back so asking him to be the 2017-2020 beast Dusty was too much. And on top of that we only just lost to a team who had only lost 7 games in their last 48 at the Gabba, and we lost on one of the most questionable video ref overturns in the history of the AFL. It was diabolical that was overturned and no “additional angles” have been produced.

 

[Muddiemoose]

Edwards in for Prestia who was having a blinder. Cotch not having a huge game and Martin not fit affected us more than them losing their ruck. McStay battled well.
Edwards for Prestia equalled the tall who came in for omac who didn't Start that well.
Nank had a good year with captaincy. Grimes had new gibcus and tarrant. Riolo and Baker back miller, and Balta back and forward..

Plus we went up one of the best clearance players on the comp who had an absolute blinder in Lachie Neale

Also seems to be glossed over that we lost that game by under a goal with multiple goals on the table both that we gave the opp’s and we missed at our end

But for some reason it’s all Nanks fault because we lost the hit outs

 

[Dr Tigris]

Yes and No.

Nnk is clearly a better player than Soldo.

But Soldo offers a lot to us. As a combo, when in form, they were a dominant couple. Soldo improved out clearances a lot, and is a physical beast around clearances. But Nank is a good midfielder, intercept ruck and general monster + decent to good ruck.

My thing is more how do we manage Miller and Soldo with Nank. We want 2 rucks. But do we go witht he more mobile couple, poorer rucking? Or the taller couple, less athleticism but better rucking and physicality?

Interesting to see how we go.

 

[Grrr]

Yes and No.

Nnk is clearly a better player than Soldo.

But Soldo offers a lot to us. As a combo, when in form, they were a dominant couple. Soldo improved out clearances a lot, and is a physical beast around clearances. But Nank is a good midfielder, intercept ruck and general monster + decent to good ruck.

My thing is more how do we manage Miller and Soldo with Nank. We want 2 rucks. But do we go witht he more mobile couple, poorer rucking? Or the taller couple, less athleticism but better rucking and physicality?

Interesting to see how we go.

Soldo can't play forward as he offers nothing on the deck. Even Nank is not much chop down there, so if they ruck together it is off to the bench, no point.
That is why Miller got a gig last year even though he had not trained or played there since he came to the club, we were that desperate. To his credit he showed a bit.

After a summer training as a forward ruck, surely he will be far more advanced in that roll this year. His pace and agility do not make him a liability when the ball hits the deck, so he can fit in with Jack and Lynch. I haven't seen the practice match but plenty of comments that Miller looked lively up forward and hit the packs hard. That will be a big plus. He is also a beautiful kick so in theory he won't need to many possessions to make an impact. Mind yuou Richo was a good field kick....

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Apart from the tap work Soldo is a liability around the ground

 

[Charlie Pannam]

Yes and No.

Nnk is clearly a better player than Soldo.

But Soldo offers a lot to us. As a combo, when in form, they were a dominant couple. Soldo improved out clearances a lot, and is a physical beast around clearances. But Nank is a good midfielder, intercept ruck and general monster + decent to good ruck.

My thing is more how do we manage Miller and Soldo with Nank. We want 2 rucks. But do we go witht he more mobile couple, poorer rucking? Or the taller couple, less athleticism but better rucking and physicality?

Interesting to see how we go.

I think you’ve got to rate Soldo post ACL. There’s no guarantee he’ll get back to that form you are talking about pre ACL.

We can hope he gets somewhere near it but at the moment you can only pick him based on what we’ve seen recently and unfortunately he’s long way off being the dominant ruckman he was 3 years ago.

I’m waiting/hoping to see him get some consistent football at VFL level this year, but my gut feeling is he won’t be that player again.

 

[Dr Tigris]

I think you’ve got to rate Soldo post ACL. There’s no guarantee he’ll get back to that form you are talking about pre ACL.

We can hope he gets somewhere near it but at the moment you can only pick him based on what we’ve seen recently and unfortunately he’s long way off being the dominant ruckman he was 3 years ago.

I’m waiting/hoping to see him get some consistent football at VFL level this year, but my gut feeling is he won’t be that player again.

Agree.

If Soldo gets back to what he was, and maybe can improve then he a really good ruck, different to Nank. But damn useful.

If

 

[Dr Tigris]

Soldo can't play forward as he offers nothing on the deck. Even Nank is not much chop down there, so if they ruck together it is off to the bench, no point.
That is why Miller got a gig last year even though he had not trained or played there since he came to the club, we were that desperate. To his credit he showed a bit.

After a summer training as a forward ruck, surely he will be far more advanced in that roll this year. His pace and agility do not make him a liability when the ball hits the deck, so he can fit in with Jack and Lynch. I haven't seen the practice match but plenty of comments that Miller looked lively up forward and hit the packs hard. That will be a big plus. He is also a beautiful kick so in theory he won't need to many possessions to make an impact. Mind yuou Richo was a good field kick....

Agree and disagree.

What Soldo offers in the deck is his ability to push people around and control contested space to our advantage. No stats, but when you watch it he was amazing. He also filled the hole really well. When he can take a mark forward he was very accurate. So Soldo is a very useful player, but nowhere near Nank around the ground. So Soldo is a very much a synergy player - makes the team better without having great stats himself.

But Miller offers a completely different skill set. He is able to be a decent 2nd ruck, and offers another KP, as well as being a good link up layer. He can also be a different style of synergy player.

Take Nank out and the Soldo + Miller set up looks really tasty.

I do not want to take Nank out, he is our #1 clearly.

Interesting problem (If Soldo is back to his best).
Nank + Soldo = High end tap ruck, physicality and very tall. --> Game plan focus on contested ball and size/physicality
Nank + Miller = Athleticism, speed, skill, but no top end tap ruck. --> Game plan focus on ball movement and speed

 

[tiger_tough]

Soldo is a tall, cumbersome dinosaur. Nank is far superior in every way bar hitouts which is one of the most overrated stats in footy.

 

[Drunken Wookie]

If youre looking at stats, look at the free kicks against, nank is leading the competition last year by a country mile. A real liability in the d50 to give away a cheap free kick - needs to stamp this it out its so frustrating.

With Nank it's always barely contained murderous rage. Does well to only give away free-kicks, he is a genuine threat to society.

 

[Grrr]

Agree and disagree.

What Soldo offers in the deck is his ability to push people around and control contested space to our advantage. No stats, but when you watch it he was amazing. He also filled the hole really well. When he can take a mark forward he was very accurate. So Soldo is a very useful player, but nowhere near Nank around the ground. So Soldo is a very much a synergy player - makes the team better without having great stats himself.

But Miller offers a completely different skill set. He is able to be a decent 2nd ruck, and offers another KP, as well as being a good link up layer. He can also be a different style of synergy player.

Take Nank out and the Soldo + Miller set up looks really tasty.

I do not want to take Nank out, he is our #1 clearly.

Interesting problem (If Soldo is back to his best).
Nank + Soldo = High end tap ruck, physicality and very tall. --> Game plan focus on contested ball and size/physicality
Nank + Miller = Athleticism, speed, skill, but no top end tap ruck. --> Game plan focus on ball movement and speed

Agree with this but for your first paragraph about controlling space. In ruck situations, he is not too bad. He is big and strong as you say, but I am talking about his role forward. Unless the ball is plonked on his head, defenders have little trouble with him. He is accurate (inside 40m), but he has only kicked 7 goals 3 behinds in his best season, so maybe a total of about half a dozen marks all up forward, so point is a bit mute. I think because it is Soldo we remember them, but the number equates to about .5 a game only.

 

[strauchy]

Not sure how this is a question. We tend to over rate Soldo ALOT on here. I know he's missed a lot of footy, but even just before he went down, he was well behind Nank. I'd like to see us develop Samson to be be Nank's backup..and where is Colina!?

 

[Dr Tigris]

Agree with this but for your first paragraph about controlling space. In ruck situations, he is not too bad. He is big and strong as you say, but I am talking about his role forward. Unless the ball is plonked on his head, defenders have little trouble with him. He is accurate (inside 40m), but he has only kicked 7 goals 3 behinds in his best season, so maybe a total of about half a dozen marks all up forward, so point is a bit mute. I think because it is Soldo we remember them, but the number equates to about .5 a game only.

Just on the controlling space thing. I specifically watched contests to see what the rucks did. Soldo was clearly alone in how much he controlled how the players positioned themselves in the contest - just physical strength, but smartly done. I would argue Nank is much more valuable in contests. But Soldo really helps our mids to get that contested ball, and get the first clean ball out. Miller doesn't do that, but he is like a cat in comparison to Soldo on the ball is in play.

I'm in the this is hard to pick group.