Oh, Ruck!

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Jimbo7 said:
Anyone that has watched the SANFL will know that Butch, Shaw and Harvey are not ruckmen. While all are big they don't seem to like the body contact.
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Yet.

Shaw is 19 and Harvey is 18 ffs

I can see both of them becoming good pinch hitters
 
The age-old question... are rucks overrated?

West Coast have the two best rucks going around in Cox and Naitanui but that doesn't mean they win games.

Sandilands is the best tapman of them all, but the rest of his game fails to hurt the opposition most of the time. Carlton's Warnock gets a huge number of taps but his team can't use that to much advantage once the ball hits the ground. Adelaide has a good one in Jacobs, but that doesn't mean that Adelaide can build a winning structure around his good work.

Not having two solid ruckmen always seems to be a problem. For Port, it means that Westhoff and Trengove have to be played out of position which often upsets options in other parts of the ground.

What's the answer? Maybe it's about devolving the ruck role. Maybe the tallest player in every line (or the player with the best jump) should assume ruck duties at throw-ins and ball-ups. Maybe, in time, all teams will cease having designated rucks in the same way that those teams that lack a designated tall full forward have found ways to kick goals by spreading the task around their creative smalls.

All other positions on the ground have become interchangeable or multi-skilled – forwards have to defend; defenders have to attack. The best small players also play tall; the best tall players also have good ground skills.

Maybe, in the continuing evolution of our game, designated ruckmen will become dinosaurs.
 

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JohnK said:
The age-old question... are rucks overrated?

West Coast have the two best rucks going around in Cox and Naitanui but that doesn't mean they win games.

Sandilands is the best tapman of them all, but the rest of his game fails to hurt the opposition most of the time. Carlton's Warnock gets a huge number of taps but his team can't use that to much advantage once the ball hits the ground. Adelaide has a good one in Jacobs, but that doesn't mean that Adelaide can build a winning structure around his good work.

Not having two solid ruckmen always seems to be a problem. For Port, it means that Westhoff and Trengove have to be played out of position which often upsets options in other parts of the ground.

What's the answer? Maybe it's about devolving the ruck role. Maybe the tallest player in every line (or the player with the best jump) should assume ruck duties at throw-ins and ball-ups. Maybe, in time, all teams will cease having designated rucks in the same way that those teams that lack a designated tall full forward have found ways to kick goals by spreading the task around their creative smalls.

All other positions on the ground have become interchangeable or multi-skilled – forwards have to defend; defenders have to attack. The best small players also play tall; the best tall players also have good ground skills.

Maybe, in the continuing evolution of our game, designated ruckmen will become dinosaurs.
Click to expand...

What you say is true John but part of me says, it is better to have a good ruckman than not have one at all.

The changes to the ruck rules have meant that ruckmen cannot use the body like they did when Matty Primus was dominant. Ruckmen have had to become much more athletic and the ability to jump is now a bigger attribute than pure height and weight. You will not get away with a midget as a ruckman but an athletic type could pinch hit. You have to be careful though because the last showdown the Crows won was primarily because Sam Jacobs racked up a record number of taps against Lobbe who was a raw kid at that stage. Hopefully Lobbe will remain sound but using a kid like Mitchell or Shaw could have a similar result.

The bottom line is that reassessing and building up our ruck stocks should be a high priority in this years trading and draft period.
 
you just have to ask yourself the question, if lobbe went down would you rather play a game with westhoff and trengove doing the ruck with an extra midfielder or bring in Renouf and loose and extra midfielder. It is entirely conceivable that if worst came to worst our defence would be ok with-out trengove playing their, you could bring in clurey and use hombsch, carlile and jonas as our central defenders. I would opt for the extra midfielder
 
First of all - farking terrible news for Renouf. Bitt tough people already talking about delisting etc. This is the blokes livelihood.

Lobbe has shown he is durable, but freak things happen. I think we have enough to cover Lobbe going down.
 
After Trengove and Westhoff were absolutely destroyed by that tingle spud Graham in a preseason game last year, I never wanted to see either of them in the ruck ever again.

The improvement in Trengove, at centre bouncedowns in particular shows what quality coaching can do, and he is now at least a bonafide back up, so hats off to the Power ruck coach.

If Lobbe did go down with a serious injury, Kenny would obviously have to rejig the game plan, with the key being to at least break even at the clearances, because obviously a big advantage to any opposition in that area will usually spell disaster.
 
Having a tall midfielder like Ebert to be 3rd man up is going to be increasingly important in stoppages around the ground if god forbid we lose Lobbe. Ebert's averaging 2 a game this year.
 
Enviable Tradition said:
The only way we can add to our list mid season is an international rookie IIRC.

Should we consider just adding soneone super tall and athletic just in case we can use them?

I know it is unlikely they would ever be good enough to play this year but what does it really cost us?
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Do international rookies sit outside the salary cap?
 
V for Valazer said:
Do international rookies sit outside the salary cap?
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We're able to have up to 3 'category B' rookies of which international would fit in. While they probably don't sit outside the salary cap, their salaries wouldn't be much at all.
 
JohnK said:
The age-old question... are rucks overrated?

West Coast have the two best rucks going around in Cox and Naitanui but that doesn't mean they win games.

Maybe, in the continuing evolution of our game, designated ruckmen will become dinosaurs.
Click to expand...
I think a single designated ruckman is fine, but the way the game is and will head further (as the cap goes down more), you can't afford to play two ruckman who can't play another position. Ie. they have to be able to either play as a KPD, KPF or a Westhoff type extra tall utility as well. Otherwise you just lose too much run late in games.
 

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raptalia said:
What you say is true John but part of me says, it is better to have a good ruckman than not have one at all.

The changes to the ruck rules have meant that ruckmen cannot use the body like they did when Matty Primus was dominant. Ruckmen have had to become much more athletic and the ability to jump is now a bigger attribute than pure height and weight. You will not get away with a midget as a ruckman but an athletic type could pinch hit. You have to be careful though because the last showdown the Crows won was primarily because Sam Jacobs racked up a record number of taps against Lobbe who was a raw kid at that stage. Hopefully Lobbe will remain sound but using a kid like Mitchell or Shaw could have a similar result.

The bottom line is that reassessing and building up our ruck stocks should be a high priority in this years trading and draft period.
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Trent ormond-Allen?? :D
 
Keegan Brooksby looked okay in the state game without being dominant. He was pretty competitive at ground level with eight tackles. He would need to get stronger overhead but he showed some promise. I assume he would be a very late draft pick.
 
The more games I am seeing this year, the more I feel winning the tap doesn't necessarily translate into clearance advantage. Redden and Lobbe are more than capable of holding down the dinosaur ruck position, what we need is a athletic tall competitor who is more than capable around the ground.

who knows, we may already have this in the form of butcher.
 
Power Raid said:
The more games I am seeing this year, the more I feel winning the tap doesn't necessarily translate into clearance advantage. Redden and Lobbe are more than capable of holding down the dinosaur ruck position, what we need is a athletic tall competitor who is more than capable around the ground.

who knows, we may already have this in the form of butcher.
Click to expand...

You need someone who can at least hold their own in the ruck. Winning a tightly contested tap might not give you much, but winning a tap comprehensively results in Primus/Francou style clearances all day. Also see Lobbe before he came good in that game where Jacobs had like 60 hitouts.
 
Power Raid said:
The more games I am seeing this year, the more I feel winning the tap doesn't necessarily translate into clearance advantage. Redden and Lobbe are more than capable of holding down the dinosaur ruck position, what we need is a athletic tall competitor who is more than capable around the ground.

who knows, we may already have this in the form of butcher.
Click to expand...
What, trengove?
 
El_Scorcho said:
You need someone who can at least hold their own in the ruck. Winning a tightly contested tap might not give you much, but winning a tap comprehensively results in Primus/Francou style clearances all day. Also see Lobbe before he came good in that game where Jacobs had like 60 hitouts.
Click to expand...

You are right, at a guess it would take butcher 2 years to learn the trade (at best) which means we still need to focus on recruiting a 3rd ready made ruck
 
rumoursofwinter said:
Keegan Brooksby looked okay in the state game without being dominant. He was pretty competitive at ground level with eight tackles. He would need to get stronger overhead but he showed some promise. I assume he would be a very late draft pick.
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He's eligible father-son for the crows and would be cheaper and possibly better than Angus Graham.
 

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