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Sweet Jesus said:
You suggested the fact he didn't win one was somehow disqualifying.
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And it is in my eyes
My point is that he won an AFLPA MVP and was equal first in the Brownlow count before he got injured and missed the last three games. So the fact he didn't win a Brownlow is neither here nor there. It's a bullshit way to bolster an assessment.
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Just as using an MVP award is also a BS assessment

Does saying "it's my opinion" insulate you from disagreement?
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Of course. You may choose to disagree though ;)
 
GreyCrow said:
And it is in my eyes
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Wait. I'm confused.

Is winning a Brownlow definitive or isn't it?

Do you rate Carey lower because he never won one?

And you've already dismissed Woewodin despite him winning one.

Are you just picking and choosing to suit your argument?

GreyCrow said:
Just as using an MVP award is also a BS assessment
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Well, which one is it?

Do you think individual awards make a case or not?

Frankly, the AFLPA MVP is more credible than the Brownlow anyway.
 
Agree about Kouta being overrated and overhyped in comparison to his actual career, prob because media and fans got wowed by his athleticism and one-handed pickups and the like.

Kouta didn't even manage a Top 3 finish in a Blues B&F until 1999 (finished equal 6th when got AA in 1995); indeed iirc he was much malinged in the late 90s for not delivering on his early promise.

He was unfortunate that injuries cruelled him after he'd had 2-3 years of excellence but am surprised based on his overall career he got in the HOF as early as he did.

Not to be entirely negative about Kouta, he came across as very likeable and personable on OM, which he always has done in media appearances over the years.


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Sweet Jesus said:
Wait. I'm confused.

Is winning a Brownlow definitive or isn't it?

Do you rate Carey lower because he never won one?

And you've already dismissed Woewodin despite him winning one.

Are you just picking and choosing to suit your argument?

Well, which one is it?

Do you think individual awards make a case or not?

Frankly, the AFLPA MVP is more credible than the Brownlow anyway.
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Winning a Brownlow alone doesn't make a player elite. Club Championships, Premierships , games played. State games, AA Honours. These all add up to a mix of an elite player. Wayne Carey is elite because all the other factors are far greater than him winning the Brownlow.

Do you say Woewoedin is elite?
 
GreyCrow said:
Winning a Brownlow alone doesn't make a player elite.
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So why did you hold it up as a reason for not rating Koutoufides?

You now agree it is not definitive.

GreyCrow said:
Club Championships, Premierships , games played. State games, AA Honours. These all add up to a mix of an elite player. Wayne Carey is elite because all the other factors are far greater than him winning the Brownlow.
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State games?

That sways you more than an AFLPA MVP?

GreyCrow said:
Do you say Woewoedin is elite?
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No.
 
Sweet Jesus said:
You agreed in your previous post that a Brownlow is not a definitive measure of a player's quality. See Carey, Woewodin etc.

Are you now changing your mind again?
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I cant help you anymore. You need to go back and re-read it. Fly be free
 
GreyCrow said:
I cant help you anymore. You need to go back and re-read it. Fly be free
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I read it. That's how I spotted the multiple contradictions.

You agree that a Brownlow is not a definitive measure of a player's quality. So it was foolish to point to Koutoufides not winning one as somehow disqualifying.

If individual awards impress you, perhaps you should consider his AFLPA MVP.
 
Kouta not winning the 2000 B&F doesn't detract from the very good year he had.

It was a very strong Carlton side he was competing in that award for. Carlton had 5 All-Australians that year; Ratten was independently voted as the 'player of the year' in one media award (beating out West/Woewodin/Kouta). Camporeale, Whitnall and Bradley were also all in arguably career best form.

Akermanis finished 4th in the Brisbane Lions B&F in 2001, but won the Brownlow in the same year. The two aren't necessarily judged on the same criteria.

I still can't decide whether he fell victim to looking better because of the players he had around him in his peak years (1995-2001). But then again you'd have to consider the fact that he singlehandedly got Carlton into the 99 GF off the back of his stellar individual performance and a Essenchoke.

It's pretty debatable whether he was a top 10 player or a steady 50-70 ranked player.
 

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Hammer#8 said:
Kouta not winning the 2000 B&F doesn't detract from the very good year he had.

It was a very strong Carlton side he was competing in that award for. Carlton had 5 All-Australians that year; Ratten was independently voted as the 'player of the year' in one media award (beating out West/Woewodin/Kouta). Camporeale, Whitnall and Bradley were also all in arguably career best form.

Akermanis finished 4th in the Brisbane Lions B&F in 2001, but won the Brownlow in the same year. The two aren't necessarily judged on the same criteria.

I still can't decide whether he fell victim to looking better because of the players he had around him in his peak years (1995-2001). But then again you'd have to consider the fact that he singlehandedly got Carlton into the 99 GF off the back of his stellar individual performance and a Essenchoke.

It's pretty debatable whether he was a top 10 player or a steady 50-70 ranked player.
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He was pretty maligned from about 96-mid 99. People forget that and seem to remember it as his peak. His peak was half of 2000.

It was his athleticism and marketability that has lead to the myth of Kouta being this magical greek footballing god.

He was a really good player that had an amazing 10 weeks. Champion, no

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The Dice Man said:
I found Kouta to be pretty refreshing, happy to talk about his highs, his lows, family and reality. Clearly something stunk when he gets his 5 million but that aint his fault.

Certainly looked like he was on the roids in some of the older footage.
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Did you see the team Carlton had between 2002-2006 when he was getting the big bucks. Who else was going to be taking the money...Digby Morrell, Daniel Harford.
 
He was a gun. Enjoyed the interview. Definitely had periods of inconsistency and injuries certainly played their part. In any case, he was a hell of a lot better than a 10 game stretch of good footy.
 
Rod Stroker said:
Didn't mind the Kouta one but I found it interesting that he fell out with pagan to the point they don't talk anymore, and then his new coach in Ratten didn't want him at the club, not even for free. There's a common demoninator there.
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Not really. Kouta isn't the only player to have issues with the way Pagan went about it in that time.

As for Ratten, that's a bit confusing. I'm guessing that the club wanted to move on from the dark days of 2002-2007 and didn't really want one of the recognisable figures of that period heading straight into the coaches box. I do recall Kouta's huge salary being something that angered some fans as he got towards the end of his career.
 
00Stinger said:
It was his athleticism and marketability that has lead to the myth of Kouta being this magical greek footballing god.
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For some reason people got excited by the fact he could hold a football in one hand ....... as someone who held a basketball in one hand, this didn't excite me all that much. I'll never forget that lame ceremony when he and John Nicholls were out on the ground and Kouta was standing there, holding the ball up in the air with one hand, and the crowd going nuts :)
 

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